379 réponses à ce sujet

[astrallite]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

Dragon Age engine is not bad. they just don't use it well. If it doesn't support large cities, well don't use large cities as a setting. I have to question this though. Just look at the latest Warden's fall episodes on youtube and compare it to DA2. Those amateurs proved that Dragon age engine has tons of untapped potential. Even the dragon orgins used the engine far batter than the updated sequel.

To be fair, modders almost always make better looking areas than paid professionals for a simple reason--they are doing it because it's their passion, not because they need to show up 9 to 5 every day to earn a paycheck and do work they are told to.

Modifié par astrallite, 23 mai 2011 - 08:58 .

[John Epler]

astrallite wrote...

Sir Caradoc wrote...

Dragon Age engine is not bad. they just don't use it well. If it doesn't support large cities, well don't use large cities as a setting. I have to question this though. Just look at the latest Warden's fall episodes on youtube and compare it to DA2. Those amateurs proved that Dragon age engine has tons of untapped potential. Even the dragon orgins used the engine far batter than the updated sequel.

To be fair, modders almost always make better looking areas than paid professionals for a simple reason--they are doing it because it's their passion, not because they need to show up 9 to 5 every day to earn a paycheck and do work they are told to.

I think you're perhaps missing a bit of a point here. Not to diminish any of the awesome work that modders do - there are lots of fan creations that blow me away. Part of the reason I stick around on these forums is because we have some very talented and creative fans, and I think it would be silly of me to think that there's nothing I can learn from them. Cinematic design is a profession still in its infancy, after all, and everyone's still learning how everything fits together - including those of us paid to do it.

But there's a difference regarding what constraints a modder must work under and what a 'professional' must work under. And that does mean that, sometimes, a modder can do things that can't be done in the main game - while I might want to do a scene with two dozen soldiers all fighting each other, for example, I have to be conscious of limitations (it needs to work on min spec machines, at least acceptably) and need to make sure it's testable and easy to upkeep. If the level art changes, for one, I need to be able to move the scene without significant rework, as any amount of rework I do is going to come out of the overall 'time budget'. If character art changes, or someone decides to trim a line, I need to be able to patch the scene back together without significant issues.

Another one is localization - the way our localization works, scenes need to be able to work regardless of VO length. This removes the ability to do lengthy, multi-line cutscenes, as what works fine in English might end up with lines overlapping multiple times in German. All of these are constraints that aren't really necessary to keep in mind when doing mods or fan work. Again - I have a ton of respect and admiration for our fans, and I keep in constant contact with a couple of the authors of fan content because I believe I can learn from them. But to say that the difference is because 'it's their passion versus their job', well, if all I were looking for was a job, there are certainly easier ways to go about it than videogames. I do it as my job because it is my passion. Some people discuss sports or politics when they go out for drinks. Me? I discuss narrative design in interactive media.

Whoops. I went off on a bit of a rant there. Ahem.

[Icinix]

Yes, DA3 really does.

I'm still not sold on the whole technical limitation being the reason why we can't have large populations that are more than part of the furniture. (There are a LOT of games that have been doing it for years)

Sure, it doesn't necessarily add anything gameplay wise, but what it does for the sense of awe and involvement in the world is immeasurable.

[Romantiq]

bleetman wrote...

Romantiq wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

I never understood why the Dragon Age series couldn't just use Unreal 3 like Mass Effect.

ME2's loading times are awful. Don't know if it has something to do with the engine though.

Mass Effect 2's loading screens aren't actually loading screens. They're .bik movies. The load times are so long because the game effectively waits until they're done playing before you're taken to the next level.

You can tinker with an .ini file to replace which movie plays when loading levels, and they're done in seconds. It's bizarre.

Thanks! I thought something was weird. I'll have to tinker next time I decide to replay. :happy:

[Xewaka]

Icinix wrote...
Yes, DA3 really does.
I'm still not sold on the whole technical limitation being the reason why we can't have large populations that are more than part of the furniture. (There are a LOT of games that have been doing it for years)
Sure, it doesn't necessarily add anything gameplay wise, but what it does for the sense of awe and involvement in the world is immeasurable.

Actually, it's a much needed addition to gameplay. If the codex and lore tells one story and the gameplay tells another completely different story, the gameplay and the lore are both ruined.
Gameplay and Story segregation has always been an issue, but it's specially and painfully evident in DA 2.

[Icinix]

Xewaka wrote...

Icinix wrote...
Yes, DA3 really does.
I'm still not sold on the whole technical limitation being the reason why we can't have large populations that are more than part of the furniture. (There are a LOT of games that have been doing it for years)
Sure, it doesn't necessarily add anything gameplay wise, but what it does for the sense of awe and involvement in the world is immeasurable.

Actually, it's a much needed addition to gameplay. If the codex and lore tells one story and the gameplay tells another completely different story, the gameplay and the lore are both ruined.
Gameplay and Story segregation has always been an issue, but it's specially and painfully evident in DA 2.

Yeah - well if you look at it that way 

[1varangian]

I definitely wouldn't mind getting rid of the horrible low res textures and overall plain cartoony style.

That said, far more important for me would be a believable RPG world. Visual style and realistic animations are a big part of that though.

[devSin]

Mr.House wrote...

DA2 uses the same engine as DAO which was a PC game. The engine was used for TW, which was a PC game. It's not a console engine. Nice try.

(sigh) The game was primarily designed to run well on consoles. This includes area and art design (which you seem to confuse as inherent aspects of the game engine).

If you want them to improve art and pile on the visual effects and design their maps differently, then suggest that. There are certainly things that the engine could be doing better. But you seem to be unaware of what the engine is actually doing. Having them replace it (or just the graphics components, which is all you seem to care about?) is not going to magically solve the things you don't like (and would almost certainly necessitate huge changes in things like gameplay).

Modifié par devSin, 23 mai 2011 - 10:43 .

[xkg]

Mr.House wrote...

DA2 uses the same engine as DAO which was a PC game. The engine was used for TW, which was a PC game. It's not a console engine. Nice try.

Are you trying to say that The Witcher used the same engine as DA:O or am I reading it wrong ?

[Cyberstrike nTo]

xkg wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

DA2 uses the same engine as DAO which was a PC game. The engine was used for TW, which was a PC game. It's not a console engine. Nice try.

Are you trying to say that The Witcher used the same engine as DA:O or am I reading it wrong ?

IIRC from reading the back of The Witcher 1 box it said it used the Bioware Aurora engine. I don't think that is the engine used for DA:O, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will point it out and correct me.

As for Dragon Age II and The Witcher 2, I don't know what engine used to make those games.   

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 23 mai 2011 - 11:20 .

[kaiki01]

I would say that DA2 needs a engine if the choice in camera angles are limited by the engine. One thing that strikes me about Witcher 2 is the cinematic camera angles during the cut scenes. Mass Effect 2 also has great camera angles during dialog. DA2 & DA1 seems to stick with the wide mid-shot from the front throughout both games.

If this isnt due to engine limitations, then there should be varied camera angles and shots in DA3. please?

[xkg]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

xkg wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

DA2 uses the same engine as DAO which was a PC game. The engine was used for TW, which was a PC game. It's not a console engine. Nice try.

Are you trying to say that The Witcher used the same engine as DA:O or am I reading it wrong ?

IIRC from reading the back of The Witcher 1 box it said it used the Bioware Auroa  engine. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will point it out and correct me.

As for The Witcher 2 I don't know what engine it used.   

Yes you are right. Aurora - it is Neverwinter Nights engine.

Modifié par xkg, 23 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[inkjay]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

xkg wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

DA2 uses the same engine as DAO which was a PC game. The engine was used for TW, which was a PC game. It's not a console engine. Nice try.

Are you trying to say that The Witcher used the same engine as DA:O or am I reading it wrong ?

IIRC from reading the back of The Witcher 1 box it said it used the Bioware Aurora engine. I don't think that is the engine used for DA:O, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will point it out and correct me.

As for Dragon Age II and The Witcher 2, I don't know what engine used to make those games.   

You are right, Dragon Age uses a different engine, tho I don't know the code name. DA2 used the same engine with some improvements they claim.

The Witcher 2 uses a whole new engine, the rendering part of it at least is brand new, but it also uses middleware like Havok for physics, and some other stuff for NPC pathfinding, animations and music.

Modifié par inkjay, 23 mai 2011 - 11:42 .

[PanosSmirnakos]

I agree 100% with the OP. DA III is in desperate need for a new graphics engine. Bioware doesn't have to create a new engine again. They can use a 3rd party one, like the Mass Effect games did with the Unreal engine and they're probably their only products which look more than OK visually and technically. It's a waste to have such an amazing and unique setting like Dragon Age, and support it with just passable graphics and so-so artistic direction / design.

[xkg]

DAO - Eclipse engine.

"Dragon Age 2 employs an evolved version of Origins' Eclipse engine (now called the Lycium engine internally)"  - joystiq.com

You can read a bit more about it here : http://www.joystiq.c...-of-adrenaline/

[Beerfish]

astrallite wrote...

Sir Caradoc wrote...

Dragon Age engine is not bad. they just don't use it well. If it doesn't support large cities, well don't use large cities as a setting. I have to question this though. Just look at the latest Warden's fall episodes on youtube and compare it to DA2. Those amateurs proved that Dragon age engine has tons of untapped potential. Even the dragon orgins used the engine far batter than the updated sequel.

To be fair, modders almost always make better looking areas than paid professionals for a simple reason--they are doing it because it's their passion, not because they need to show up 9 to 5 every day to earn a paycheck and do work they are told to.

Sheer and utter nonsense.  Why would people get into that line of work in the 1st place if they didn't have a passion for it?  Are you saying that talented people who suddenly get a job with a developer suddenly go into the tank?

[Realmzmaster]

Many people here are talking about replacing the engine. We have no idea if the limitations are due to the engine or the lack of using it to the engine's full potential which could be caused by the short development time.
We also have no idea if a different engine would work with the game, story and gameplay that Bioware may have in mind for DA3.
The graphics are not necessarily a limitation of the engine, but the artist's concept which you can agree or disagree with.
The engine may well have limitations but that can be said of any game engine. We do not know the limitations of the other engines. We can only speculate. For example the Red Engine shows wonderful environments, but can it handle party based play with full customization for each party member? I do not know because CDProjeckt has not created a party based CRPG.
Some say the Unreal engine used for ME2? I do not know if that would work with DA's world? Also it would require learning how to design with the new engine?
It still does not change the graphics except maybe how the graphics are rendered. If Bioware likes the elves quarni from DA2 compared to their counterparts from DAO, how does having a new engine change it.

[Romantiq]

I think the level designer's excuse for crappy lifeless city design was "limitations"

Modifié par Romantiq, 24 mai 2011 - 01:47 .

[Nigawatts]

Bioware really needs to step up, because TW2 had some of the best graphics (mostly art design) I've ever seen in a game. The Battle in Act 2 (the one with the ghosts) in particular looked phenomenal..

[WhiteKnyght]

ME_Fan wrote...

Hi there. With the Witcher 2 having recently been released, watching footage and playing it  makes me realise how behind DAII was in terms of graphics. Dragon Age II was released on the same engine as DA:Origins. The same engine which was in development since 2004/5? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway with the announcement of DA3, I figured it could go two ways, either it could repeat the DAII formula and be released mid-late 2012, or have more time taken with like Origins and be released in 2013. In either case, for Dragon Age III to run on the origins engine, which was built in 2005, could be a disaster. When Origins was released in 2009 it looked good, with DAII in 2011, however, lots of people agree it looked outright dated. The next game shouldn't run on this engine, particularly if it is to be a 2012/13 game, it just won't reach the graphical standard by then.

To see Thedas through a state of the art engine would be incredible. Just imagine walking along the beaches and jungles of Seheron or the vibrant streets of Val Royeaux beatifully rendered by say, for example, Crytek's CryEngine. And I can't wait to see what BioWare could potentially do with beautiful, new, crisp graphics technology. But in any case, please don't use the origins engine again!

To put it simply, Dragon Age III should have a new engine.

We can only hope that Dragon Age III might look like this.

Val Royeaux?




Seheron?

The level of quality in Origins and DAII over a lot of the games I've played in the past is far out. If they decided to make DA3 with the same engine and graphics as Origins it would STILL be epic.

[Diceyy]

It'd be both awesome and ironic if they used cdprojekts new engine. Even if you don't like the story in witcher 2 you can't deny that the visuals in that game are drop dead gorgeous

[Kuroi Kenshi]

Diceyy wrote...

It'd be both awesome and ironic if they used cdprojekts new engine. Even if you don't like the story in witcher 2 you can't deny that the visuals in that game are drop dead gorgeous

It has the best forest that i saw in a videogame, even better than the one in crysis 

[MachDelta]

A thread on a Bioware forum beseeching the need for shiny graphics over that of a compelling story and entertaining gameplay?

Maybe the rapture really DID happen last saturday.

Hell has certainly frozen over...

[devSin]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Many people here are talking about replacing the engine. We have no idea if the limitations are due to the engine or the lack of using it to the engine's full potential which could be caused by the short development time.

Likely the conflation of a lot of different elements. The engine certainly imposes some restrictions, and a lot of others are trade-offs (they could do it, if they wanted to and were willing to live with the consequences).

If you think it's balanced incorrectly (the graphics are too poor or what have you), then you should argue for them to put more effort into that particular area. But realize that the decision to concentrate on that will likely force things to change elsewhere.

The unrealistic suggestion of just dropping in a new engine is a non-starter. To try to get something that plays even remotely similar to DA (Origins or 2) would probably take a gargantuan effort.

Realmzmaster wrote...

Some say the Unreal engine used for ME2? I do not know if that would work with DA's world? Also it would require learning how to design with the new engine?

Mass Effect uses Unreal Engine 3. The RPG elements (such as they are) are tacked on, and it looks (from a casual glance) to be way different than is typical from BioWare (whereas the way DA works is more an evolution of stuff they've always done).

There's no telling how wildly different gameplay would have to be in order to make such a thing work (I suspect the end result wouldn't feel like the current Dragon Age at all). But I do believe that, after this current generation is played out, they'll switch over to the ME engine anyway. The ability to leverage all the graphics work Epic has done will probably outweigh the desire to keep more traditional gameplay elements, even if they have to start over from scratch with all the content.

Diceyy wrote...

It'd be both awesome and ironic if they used cdprojekts new engine.

Disregarding that this wouldn't even be an option, they can't use an engine that doesn't have working console support. Period.

[marshalleck]

MachDelta wrote...

A thread on a Bioware forum beseeching the need for shiny graphics over that of a compelling story and entertaining gameplay?

Maybe the rapture really DID happen last saturday.

Hell has certainly frozen over...

Nah. The Witcher 2 came, and delivered us from evil. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 mai 2011 - 02:27 .