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Dragon Age III needs a new engine.


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#126
WilliamShatner

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JohnEpler wrote...

astrallite wrote...

Sir Caradoc wrote...

Dragon Age engine is not bad. they just don't use it well. If it doesn't support large cities, well don't use large cities as a setting. I have to question this though. Just look at the latest Warden's fall episodes on youtube and compare it to DA2. Those amateurs proved that Dragon age engine has tons of untapped potential. Even the dragon orgins used the engine far batter than the updated sequel.


To be fair, modders almost always make better looking areas than paid professionals for a simple reason--they are doing it because it's their passion, not because they need to show up 9 to 5 every day to earn a paycheck and do work they are told to.


I think you're perhaps missing a bit of a point here. Not to diminish any of the awesome work that modders do - there are lots of fan creations that blow me away. Part of the reason I stick around on these forums is because we have some very talented and creative fans, and I think it would be silly of me to think that there's nothing I can learn from them. Cinematic design is a profession still in its infancy, after all, and everyone's still learning how everything fits together - including those of us paid to do it.

But there's a difference regarding what constraints a modder must work under and what a 'professional' must work under. And that does mean that, sometimes, a modder can do things that can't be done in the main game - while I might want to do a scene with two dozen soldiers all fighting each other, for example, I have to be conscious of limitations (it needs to work on min spec machines, at least acceptably) and need to make sure it's testable and easy to upkeep. If the level art changes, for one, I need to be able to move the scene without significant rework, as any amount of rework I do is going to come out of the overall 'time budget'. If character art changes, or someone decides to trim a line, I need to be able to patch the scene back together without significant issues.

Another one is localization - the way our localization works, scenes need to be able to work regardless of VO length. This removes the ability to do lengthy, multi-line cutscenes, as what works fine in English might end up with lines overlapping multiple times in German. All of these are constraints that aren't really necessary to keep in mind when doing mods or fan work. Again - I have a ton of respect and admiration for our fans, and I keep in constant contact with a couple of the authors of fan content because I believe I can learn from them. But to say that the difference is because 'it's their passion versus their job', well, if all I were looking for was a job, there are certainly easier ways to go about it than videogames. I do it as my job because it is my passion. Some people discuss sports or politics when they go out for drinks. Me? I discuss narrative design in interactive media.

Whoops. I went off on a bit of a rant there. Ahem.


So dubbing - the spawn of the devil - is impacting the quality of the game?

Suggestion:  Stop dubbing  Present the game in the original English with subtitles.  

#127
daemon1129

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I think the engine is just bad. It looks bad, it doesn't run well (Kirkwall being empty because of that apparently). I want to run DA2 on high, but it just too slow. My laptop can run crysis 2 much better and to see how ugly DA2 graphics are, its just painful.

#128
Diceyy

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Well its not just that the npcs in kirkwall don't move around or that there aren't really that many of them that drags public opinion down. Its also that barely a damn thing changes in 10 years of storyline. Most of the npcs don't even change their underwear. That is outright negligent.

#129
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Is there anyone else who thought that the market in Denerim was more lively, than say, Hightown?

Granted, it's not going to be Witcher 2 level type of living world, but you'd think there would be some improvement made on that front, as opposed to making it worse.

#130
packardbell

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mrcrusty wrote...

Is there anyone else who thought that the market in Denerim was more lively, than say, Hightown?

Granted, it's not going to be Witcher 2 level type of living world, but you'd think there would be some improvement made on that front, as opposed to making it worse.


It could be.. if they took their time, but that's not likely going to happen. But who knows - maybe after seeing what CDPR acclomplished in 4 or so years with TW2, and that's from a small indie company. Bioware ahs like 600 employees.. not sure how many on the DA team, most likely still more than CDPR.

#131
Romantiq

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Diceyy wrote...

Well its not just that the npcs in kirkwall don't move around or that there aren't really that many of them that drags public opinion down. Its also that barely a damn thing changes in 10 years of storyline. Most of the npcs don't even change their underwear. That is outright negligent.


Yeah its pretty sad when Kirkwall is not changing at all over the years when a simple forgotten trading post Flotsam (in W2) has 2 big cosmetic redesigns depending on player's choices.

#132
Chromie

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Romantiq wrote...

Diceyy wrote...

Well its not just that the npcs in kirkwall don't move around or that there aren't really that many of them that drags public opinion down. Its also that barely a damn thing changes in 10 years of storyline. Most of the npcs don't even change their underwear. That is outright negligent.


Yeah its pretty sad when Kirkwall is not changing at all over the years when a simple forgotten trading post Flotsam (in W2) has 2 big cosmetic redesigns depending on player's choices.


Choosing to give someone a sword has a bigger impact then the whole of DA2 seriously.

#133
dunachar

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The graphics are more than fine.......and i certainly don't want them to spend time upgrading/making a new engine, when there are FAR more pressing matters.....let alone comprimising story, gameplay for the sake of pretty trees.

#134
88mphSlayer

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dunachar wrote...

The graphics are more than fine.......and i certainly don't want them to spend time upgrading/making a new engine, when there are FAR more pressing matters.....let alone comprimising story, gameplay for the sake of pretty trees.


i don't think they would pay programmers and graphic artists to just sit around doing nothing

#135
Eromenos

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I just want them to move away from the isometric(?) thing...they should've ended that after NWN. During combat and travel, everything seems too cardboard.

#136
Chromie

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Eromenos wrote...

I just want them to move away from the isometric(?) thing...they should've ended that after NWN. During combat and travel, everything seems too cardboard.


Isometric is a camera view and I'd like that back for the next Dragon Age game.

@dunachar  I don't see why it can have everything? Witcher 2 a smaller company managed to do it just fine and turn out an amazing game.

Modifié par Ringo12, 25 mai 2011 - 01:45 .


#137
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Eromenos wrote...

I just want them to move away from the isometric(?) thing...they should've ended that after NWN. During combat and travel, everything seems too cardboard.


They pretty much did. Origins is the only game post Neverwinter Nights to have an isometric or top down viewpoint.

#138
SphereofSilence

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Been saying it for a while since DA2 was first announced. Even if they take the same engine, improve it, and then release DA3 in 2-3 years time, it's going to look poorer than The Witcher 2, and lags more. I don't see a way around it, they got to take the painful step to make a full overhaul. Crysis 2 or 3 engine is good, why not use that, since it's from another division of EA, Crytek, ask them to mod it for BW if possible.

Modifié par SphereofSilence, 25 mai 2011 - 04:58 .


#139
kaiki01

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dunachar wrote...

The graphics are more than fine.......and i certainly don't want them to spend time upgrading/making a new engine, when there are FAR more pressing matters.....let alone comprimising story, gameplay for the sake of pretty trees.


The compromise comes from the writers can either write story and dialog or do digital painting, right?

#140
TEWR

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Icinix wrote...

Yes, DA3 really does.

I'm still not sold on the whole technical limitation being the reason why we can't have large populations that are more than part of the furniture. (There are a LOT of games that have been doing it for years)

Sure, it doesn't necessarily add anything gameplay wise, but what it does for the sense of awe and involvement in the world is immeasurable.


I can think of one game other than The Witcher and TW2 that have cities that are more alive. FFXIII. Every time you walk by someone they say something. Now of course eventually the lines they say will repeat, but it's way more alive than Kirkwall.


A dead fish could be more alive than Kirkwall.


Anyway, DA3 definitely needs a new engine. Maybe CDPR's. What about FFXIII's though? or would that make everyone have Japanese looking faces? I'm not very tech-savvy anymore. Kinda grew lazy in that regard.

 Well, not everyone in FFXIII had Japanese faces. Actually.... a lot of characters didn't. Sazh Katzroy, Snow Villiers, Galenth Dysley, Vanille, Fang, etc...



The city of Palumpolum looked amazing even outside of cutscenes.

Anyway, what new engines could work better for DA? CDPR's we know, but are there any others?

#141
meteorswarm

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Dice's Frostbite2.0 engine available.It has been used by Need for speed:the run.

#142
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Well in terms of comparison, I'm still of the opinion that Denerim with a bit more life, people running around, idle conversations, that would've been absolutely fine. It wouldn't top Witcher 2's efforts, but it would've been better than the dead city we got. It couldn't be that hard, unless Denerim Market was absolutely pushing the limitations of the engine.

Which I still don't believe when there are mods like Improved Atmosphere around. So, it's either a technical limitation with consoles or a case with poor optimisation. Likely a combination of both, or the latter leading to the former. But these things can be fixed without a new engine.

When it comes to things of an ambient nature like the living world aspect, or background music, if it's good, it's good enough, if it's bad, it really sticks out.

As for TEWR's idea of using the FFXIII engine, that's in the hands of Square Enix, and I think they are taking a similar stance to EA on their Frostbite 2.0 engine: no one but us can use it.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 25 mai 2011 - 10:58 .


#143
Wonderllama4

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those polish guys made a shiny new engine and TW2 in what, three years? Bioware could do that too. They need to stun people with Dragon Age 3.

#144
TaHol100

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Yes, DA3 needs a new engine, and a new developer team, and a new lead for that team, and new writers, and a ****load of time. And we know it will never get any of those.

#145
Chromie

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Wonderllama4 wrote...

those polish guys made a shiny new engine and TW2 in what, three years? Bioware could do that too. They need to stun people with Dragon Age 3.


They started the new engine after the Witcher 1 back in 2007. They had it running good enough to attempt the 360 console version of Witcher 1 on the RED Engine. Obviously they cancelled it but the RED Engine can work on consoles it would be so much better to make a game on PC then downscale the graphics instead of upscale for PC.

I have no idea if it's that simple but still. In 4 years they made a new engine that can work on console and works great on PC. At max setting minus Ubersampling the game runs better then DA2 on DX11 at max.

#146
Kuroi Kenshi

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Ringo12 wrote...

Wonderllama4 wrote...

those polish guys made a shiny new engine and TW2 in what, three years? Bioware could do that too. They need to stun people with Dragon Age 3.


They started the new engine after the Witcher 1 back in 2007. They had it running good enough to attempt the 360 console version of Witcher 1 on the RED Engine. Obviously they cancelled it but the RED Engine can work on consoles it would be so much better to make a game on PC then downscale the graphics instead of upscale for PC.

I have no idea if it's that simple but still. In 4 years they made a new engine that can work on console and works great on PC. At max setting minus Ubersampling the game runs better then DA2 on DX11 at max.

Exactly, and making an engine is a very difficult process especially if you need to make it compatible for different platforms, that's why Bioware should borrow an existing engine that can work on all platforms and is future proof (i.e DX 11 capable for PC is a must) with creating or modifying an engine out of the box making an awesome game in 3 years is very feasible

Modifié par Kuroi Kenshi, 25 mai 2011 - 07:34 .


#147
4love

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ME_Fan wrote...

Hi there. With the Witcher 2 having recently been released, watching footage and playing it  makes me realise how behind DAII was in terms of graphics. Dragon Age II was released on the same engine as DA:Origins. The same engine which was in development since 2004/5? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway with the announcement of DA3, I figured it could go two ways, either it could repeat the DAII formula and be released mid-late 2012, or have more time taken with like Origins and be released in 2013. In either case, for Dragon Age III to run on the origins engine, which was built in 2005, could be a disaster. When Origins was released in 2009 it looked good, with DAII in 2011, however, lots of people agree it looked outright dated. The next game shouldn't run on this engine, particularly if it is to be a 2012/13 game, it just won't reach the graphical standard by then.

To see Thedas through a state of the art engine would be incredible. Just imagine walking along the beaches and jungles of Seheron or the vibrant streets of Val Royeaux beatifully rendered by say, for example, Crytek's CryEngine. And I can't wait to see what BioWare could potentially do with beautiful, new, crisp graphics technology. But in any case, please don't use the origins engine again!

To put it simply, Dragon Age III should have a new engine. Image IPB

We can only hope that Dragon Age III might look like this.

Val Royeaux?Image IPB
Image IPB



Seheron?Image IPB
Image IPB




THIS LOOK LIKE THE WITCHER 2,anyway i say BIOWARE should make THEY OWN ENGINE.

#148
Edli

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SphereofSilence wrote...

Crysis 2 or 3 engine is good, why not use that, since it's from another division of EA, Crytek, ask them to mod it for BW if possible.


Crytek is not another division of EA. EA just published their game but they don't own Crytek and neither the engine.

#149
astrallite

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Some screenshots I took in my game (the resizing made them look bad; they look a lot better than this actually):

Image IPB
Image IPB
Image IPB

Modifié par astrallite, 25 mai 2011 - 07:02 .


#150
Chromie

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[quote]4love wrote...

Image IPB[/quote]



THIS LOOK LIKE THE WITCHER 2,anyway i say BIOWARE should make THEY OWN ENGINE.
[/quote]

That looks like Skyrim to me.

This is the Witcher 2. Kind of a big difference.

http://cloud.steampo...D7B1E81BE54ADF/
http://cloud.steampo...EF4A9BFC9E70B9/