379 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

astrallite wrote...

Final Fantasy 13 on a PS3 looks better than DA2 on Ultra on a PC. Console limitations...cough

That's what I was saying too. People who think that consoles can't have amazingly stunning graphics are either delusional or have played some really ****ty games.

[ME_Fan]

^Exactly, Look at Uncharted 2 or Crysis 2. Then look at Dragon Age II.

[Vollkeule]

they should concentrate on gameplay, not on engines...

[lyleoffmyspace]

The Solution for this is for them to go back to the Infinity Engine. Then they can definitely focus on game play and storytelling.

[Romantiq]

Cities in BioWare games never felt truly alive. Hardly even semi-alive but never anything spectacular. Even in Mass Effect 2 with cool places where Asari dance, all the npcs are static, they have no purpose and are not mobile. You just click on em and they say one of few lines they are given.
So even if they get a new engine there is no telling that they will succeed at making the city alive. Every city they had felt a lot more alive than Kirkwall the Ninja Ghost Town.

[Icinix]

astrallite wrote...

Final Fantasy 13 on a PS3 looks better than DA2 on Ultra on a PC. Console limitations...cough

Yeah..but...its DA2...

..it doesnt take much to look better than it.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

mrcrusty wrote...

Well in terms of comparison, I'm still of the opinion that Denerim with a bit more life, people running around, idle conversations, that would've been absolutely fine. It wouldn't top Witcher 2's efforts, but it would've been better than the dead city we got. It couldn't be that hard, unless Denerim Market was absolutely pushing the limitations of the engine.

Which I still don't believe when there are mods like Improved Atmosphere around. So, it's either a technical limitation with consoles or a case with poor optimisation. Likely a combination of both, or the latter leading to the former. But these things can be fixed without a new engine.

The other and possible cause is that they just couldn't be bothered.

When it comes to things of an ambient nature like the living world aspect, or background music, if it's good, it's good enough, if it's bad, it really sticks out.

As for TEWR's idea of using the FFXIII engine, that's in the hands of Square Enix, and I think they are taking a similar stance to EA on their Frostbite 2.0 engine: no one but us can use it.

[Chromie]

Vollkeule wrote...

they should concentrate on gameplay, not on engines...

So a company as big as Bioware can't do both? CDProjekt did just saying.

[In Exile]

The other thing Bioware could do is cheap out on facial modelling, which is what TW2 did in comparison to DA2, and invested heavily in the environment. That's not to say TW2 is actually comparable graphically to DA2; but the facial models aside from Geralt, Roche, Letho and Yorveth in TW2 are of relatively poor quality (compared to the in-game environmetns).

Because TW2 doesn't have to focus on a CC, they can invest most of their time rendering environments.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

The other thing Bioware could do is cheap out on facial modelling, which is what TW2 did in comparison to DA2, and invested heavily in the environment. That's not to say TW2 is actually comparable graphically to DA2; but the facial models aside from Geralt, Roche, Letho and Yorveth in TW2 are of relatively poor quality (compared to the in-game environmetns).

Because TW2 doesn't have to focus on a CC, they can invest most of their time rendering environments.

I hope you're not suggesting that DA get rid of character customization. There was already enough backlash against Hawke being a human, which annoyed me to no end whenever I saw it.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The other thing Bioware could do is cheap out on facial modelling, which is what TW2 did in comparison to DA2, and invested heavily in the environment. That's not to say TW2 is actually comparable graphically to DA2; but the facial models aside from Geralt, Roche, Letho and Yorveth in TW2 are of relatively poor quality (compared to the in-game environmetns).

Because TW2 doesn't have to focus on a CC, they can invest most of their time rendering environments.

I hope you're not suggesting that DA get rid of character customization. There was already enough backlash against Hawke being a human, which annoyed me to no end whenever I saw it.

I don't know what is wrong with sticking to the same formula. BioWare shouldn't be trying to one up The Witcher 2. If they only have a 2 year time frame, then just give us back the same style of game as Origins. Have us be able to choose between races without a main character voice. I know it isn't possible because they are trying to market to guys that hate reading text (the same people who skip through Caesar's dialgoue in New Vegas and just shoot first ask questions later).
 
In the end, people who play games like GTA: IV aren't going to like linear RPGs. They are the ones that Bethesda successfully targets to because Bethesda games are cheap hiking simulators with crappy stories and dialogue (minus New Vegas).

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I hope you're not suggesting that DA get rid of character customization. There was already enough backlash against Hawke being a human, which annoyed me to no end whenever I saw it.

Absolutely not! I am just saying that the Red Engine is not something per se designed for Bioware's needs. Given the number of recycled faces and the quality difference between them, it's not clear what facegen tools are available for the player.

More generally, I'm just making an observation that DA2 chose (within the scope of its engine) to focus on faces versus environment, and TW2 did the opposite. It's interesting to see people value environmental graphics over facial ones.

[Siegdrifa]

@ OP
DA2 is a console okay games.
PC have by far, more advanced hardware, DA2 and lot of game are made for 4 or 5 years old tech.
TW2 is a PC game first, and the console version won't be graphicaly as good as PC high end version.

If you want to see console games as good or better looking than TW2, it is not possible on Xbox 360 and PS3, you will have to wait the new generation with better harware.

Other than that, Bioware was never a kickass in graphic departement since they make game in 3D, NWN wasn't amazing, KOTOR was not good looking. What made Bioware success was about "start the game, get absorber, can't stop until the game is over".

Still, i'm not desagreeing with you. My DA2 and TW2 run with nearly the same FPS... and TW2 is a lot lot LOT more loaded on the screen. Higher poly number, higher texture, higher shadow quality, higher lightning and illumination effect.
I can't run the game in DX11 but when i will upgrade for Skyrim, i'll be sure to check DA2 DX11 display to see what i missed.

[MonkeyLungs]

Are you talking about primary character faces or just faces in general. Random NPC's in DA2 are the WORST I have seen in a ame in a long time ... by quite a large margin.

[daemon1129]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Are you talking about primary character faces or just faces in general. Random NPC's in DA2 are the WORST I have seen in a ame in a long time ... by quite a large margin.

I thought Sandal and his dad looks terrible comparing to DAO.

[Siegdrifa]

In Exile wrote...

The other thing Bioware could do is cheap out on facial modelling, which is what TW2 did in comparison to DA2, and invested heavily in the environment. That's not to say TW2 is actually comparable graphically to DA2; but the facial models aside from Geralt, Roche, Letho and Yorveth in TW2 are of relatively poor quality (compared to the in-game environmetns).

Because TW2 doesn't have to focus on a CC, they can invest most of their time rendering environments.

Sorry, it makes no sens for the 3D CG i'm.
Facial modling is handled by 3D modlers, rendering environments are handled by programmer under the care of the Lead Artist (light is too bright, color temperature are incorrect etc). Some programmer and specialised in LIghtening and illuminating programming.

Also, facial modling in TW2 is very good, even for non important caracters, i think you misunderstand facial modling and facial texturing.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 26 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[ShadyKat]

neppakyo wrote...

Yeah, after TW, BW needs to be able to make cities/towns that are filled with life and a soul.

I still vote for a new engine, thats as scalable as the RED engine. Better yet, pay CD Projekt a boat load of money for their engine.

People keep using the Witcher as an example. Hell, Assassin Creed and Red Dead Redemption both have cities that feel alive, and are much more realistic than Dragon Age. And both games look great on consoles. The DA team simply need to put more effort into the series, and not half ass the 3rd game.

[TEWR]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The other thing Bioware could do is cheap out on facial modelling, which is what TW2 did in comparison to DA2, and invested heavily in the environment. That's not to say TW2 is actually comparable graphically to DA2; but the facial models aside from Geralt, Roche, Letho and Yorveth in TW2 are of relatively poor quality (compared to the in-game environmetns).

Because TW2 doesn't have to focus on a CC, they can invest most of their time rendering environments.

I hope you're not suggesting that DA get rid of character customization. There was already enough backlash against Hawke being a human, which annoyed me to no end whenever I saw it.

I don't know what is wrong with sticking to the same formula. BioWare shouldn't be trying to one up The Witcher 2. If they only have a 2 year time frame, then just give us back the same style of game as Origins. Have us be able to choose between races without a main character voice. I know it isn't possible because they are trying to market to guys that hate reading text (the same people who skip through Caesar's dialgoue in New Vegas and just shoot first ask questions later).
 
In the end, people who play games like GTA: IV aren't going to like linear RPGs. They are the ones that Bethesda successfully targets to because Bethesda games are cheap hiking simulators with crappy stories and dialogue (minus New Vegas).

*sigh*

They're not trying to one-up The Witcher. The DA games are about Thedas, which means that there will be games with Origins and games with set races. David Gaider has said that they haven't gotten rid of the Origins concept. We've only had 2 games in the series so far. And they were one comsisting of Origins and another of a set race, yet people keep believing that Bioware has gone the route of set race only.

don't believe my David Gaider bit? See for yourself: http://social.biowar...ex/7429694&lf=8

[Chromie]

@ShadyKat But I want an engine that can make games as good looking as Witcher 2!

[Merci357]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Also, facial modling in TW2 is very good, even for non important caracters, i think you misunderstand facial modling and facial texturing.

The models look great, true - but the facial animations (talking animations) are quite terrible.

[In Exile]

Siegdrifa wrote...
Sorry, it makes no sens for the 3D CG i'm.
Facial modling is handled by 3D modlers, rendering environments are handled by programmer under the care of the Lead Artist (light is too bright, color temperature are incorrect etc). Some programmer and specialised in LIghtening and illuminating programming.

Facial models and environmental models are resource intensive. There is an upper bound to how muh detail you can have in game, even with downscaling textures at a distance. Bioware used it's poorer engine to render faces as best it could, at the cost of the environment. It's where they stole their textures from.

But you're right - I was talking about textures. I'm very far removed from the technical field. But my point stands: the relative visual quality of faces in the Red Engine (and the overall number and variety of them) is much less.

Also, facial modling in TW2 is very good, even for non important caracters, i think you misunderstand facial modling and facial texturing.

I didn't say that it wasn't good. I said that compared to the environment, it is not as good, and much worse for non-important characters.

[Jsixgun]

The engine is rather dull and uninspired, I would agree. You never say "wow". Too me if I was game developer and some games made me sit back and say "wow" and mine did not...I would look for a new engine for sure. Kirkwall was bland in deed.

[MonkeyLungs]

One of my biggest issues with Kirkwall is that everything is done in right angles and almost every single building connects to each other. Why aren't there buildings independent of each other and some having gardens and such. Why can't we go around the building and enter through the back entrance if we like? Why can't we go around the buildings at all? Why do all of the nobles of Hightown have interlocked buildings?

Level design can lend alot to a game even if the visuals aren't the most amazing.

Where is the butchers? How about the fish monger? Why only one single pub? Why is the city of kirkwall so small ... so so so small.

[guardian of hades]

ShadyKat wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Yeah, after TW, BW needs to be able to make cities/towns that are filled with life and a soul.

I still vote for a new engine, thats as scalable as the RED engine. Better yet, pay CD Projekt a boat load of money for their engine.

People keep using the Witcher as an example. Hell, Assassin Creed and Red Dead Redemption both have cities that feel alive, and are much more realistic than Dragon Age. And both games look great on consoles. The DA team simply need to put more effort into the series, and not half ass the 3rd game.

None of the games you brought up were party based, which causes limitations to the engine as you have to have unique animations for each character.

[TEWR]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

One of my biggest issues with Kirkwall is that everything is done in right angles and almost every single building connects to each other. Why aren't there buildings independent of each other and some having gardens and such. Why can't we go around the building and enter through the back entrance if we like? Why can't we go around the buildings at all? Why do all of the nobles of Hightown have interlocked buildings?

Level design can lend alot to a game even if the visuals aren't the most amazing.

Where is the butchers? How about the fish monger? Why only one single pub? Why is the city of kirkwall so small ... so so so small.

Technically there are two pubs. The Hanged Man and The Blooming Rose's pub.

And it would've been nice to see butchers and fish mongers I'll admit. It would've been nice to see citizens buying some of it.

Also, interlocked buildings are a common sight in my city just as much as independent ones.