28 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeevico]

Enter, and see corpses.
Enter next room, see guards. Guards attack as any others might. They seem perfecty ordinary but (luckily) tey're called "crazed guards." So we -know- they're crazy. Varric points it out too: he says they're crazy.

Mind you, they haven't really done anything unusual. Nearly every guard in the game attacks you on sight and without warning.

Which begs the question: what did varric see that you didn't?

Of course, he didn't see anything you didn't. You were there with him the entire time.

What stands out is the stark inattention to detail in this scene. We are simply left to assume that the guards had some invisible "crazy look" in their eyes, or some other such nonsense, because we simply have no way of seeing how these guards are mad. This is a classic example of telling rather than showing--a bad mistake in storytelling.

[Big I]

Limitations of the game engine. How do we know that we're being attacked by tal-vasoth or Coterie members? Because the game tells us.

[Zeevico]

I disagree. Dialogue, context and explanation are apt replacements for descriptors like "coterie rogue" and "tal-vashoth", let alone "crazed guard." Using these placeholder names is no substitute, and nor is asking us to pretend that varric saw the inherent craziness in the guards. Exactly what he saw he doesn't actually explain--that's part of the trouble as well. None of this is limited by the game engine.

Modifié par Zeevico, 23 mai 2011 - 04:35 .

[Beerfish]

Crazed can be interpretted many ways. If you are saying that the guards have been instructed to immediately kill anyone they see in Bartrandds mansion without 1st asking who they are I'd find it strange.

[Sajuro]

Given that they are standing between Hawke and where Hawke wants to go, they are crazed.

[Maladismal]

Your hawke didn't say they werne't crazed? No need to, he agreed with Varric when he called upon it.

Varric's reaction to the "crazed guard" is the blood shot eyes and foaming at the teeth look necessary.


Btw good troll bait.

[Zeevico]

Beerfish wrote...

Crazed can be interpretted many ways. If you are saying that the guards have been instructed to immediately kill anyone they see in Bartrandds mansion without 1st asking who they are I'd find it strange.

It follows that practically everyone in this game is therefore crazed.

[TEWR]

What'd you want them to do to show you they were crazed? Dress in drag and do the hula?

[Sajuro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What'd you want them to do to show you they were crazed? Dress in drag and do the hula?

yes

[Xilizhra]

They were driven crazy by the idol. Varric can hear echoes of its song, and he subconsciously recognizes what it's done to the guards.

[Rifneno]

Zeevico wrote...

Enter next room, see guards. Guards attack as any others might. They seem perfecty ordinary but (luckily) tey're called "crazed guards." So we -know- they're crazy. Varric points it out too: he says they're crazy. 

They're wearing "Stannard/Karras 9:35" campaign buttons.

[Zeevico]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What'd you want them to do to show you they were crazed? Dress in drag and do the hula?

Anything other than telling me that they are. A scant line of dialogue from them would have been enough but it's not necessarily the only way. Are they killing each other? Show that. Otherwise they're just non-descript enemies.

[Zeevico]

Rifneno wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Enter next room, see guards. Guards attack as any others might. They seem perfecty ordinary but (luckily) tey're called "crazed guards." So we -know- they're crazy. Varric points it out too: he says they're crazy. 

They're wearing "Stannard/Karras 9:35" campaign buttons.

Zing!

[TEWR]

you're nitpicking the very minor details about the game. And for what purpose might I ask? You find out why they're crazed in the game from one of Bartrand's dwarven stewards. Bartrand has been force-feeding them lyrium in the attempt to get them to hear the same song he heard.

[mesmerizedish]

This is a good thread. Very good points.

[Beerfish]

Zeevico wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Crazed can be interpretted many ways. If you are saying that the guards have been instructed to immediately kill anyone they see in Bartrandds mansion without 1st asking who they are I'd find it strange.

It follows that practically everyone in this game is therefore crazed.

Most have an agenda to try to kill Hawke.  These guys immediatly attack so yes you can say that if you wish.  I would assume that Varric might know about how his brother deals with guards and staff and such.

I'd say Hugins comments about them being crazed animals kind of backs up whatever Varric saw in them no?

Modifié par Beerfish, 24 mai 2011 - 04:05 .

[mesmerizedish]

The point is that we as players can't perceive them as crazed animals. They act exactly like every other group of armed individuals we see (this is true, think about it; every time a bunch of people get together with weapons, we kill them).

[Zeevico]

More broadly, I take issue with the very large number of fights that take place without much context--senselessly, if you will.

I can give another example.

Take Vale's DLC, Act 1. You fight mercenaries in this set piece. You don't know who they are other than by reference to their location, which is (conveniently enough) pinned down in your map.

They attack you on sight and without warning. They don't even know who you are. You're a bunch of people wandering about. Apparently that's reason enough.

For a set piece that's pathetic. For a set piece you're paying extra for that's even more pathetic.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
you're nitpicking the very minor details about the game. And for what purpose might I ask? You find out why they're crazed in the game from one of Bartrand's dwarven stewards. Bartrand has been force-feeding them lyrium in the attempt to get them to hear the same song he heard.

Yes, but that doesn't happen until a few fights later on in the piece. Until then they're just guards who--according to Varric, but nothing else--"look" crazy.

Modifié par Zeevico, 24 mai 2011 - 04:56 .

[TEWR]

ok I can understand that. While still a minor detail, I can understand the desire for something to at least show that they're crazed aside from a comment.

[SkittlesKat96]

It's simply a minor adjustment to explain their role in the story. It's not a big deal particularly because the game engine has limitations and the game was a little bit on the rushed side.

[Beerfish]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The point is that we as players can't perceive them as crazed animals. They act exactly like every other group of armed individuals we see (this is true, think about it; every time a bunch of people get together with weapons, we kill them).

Yup, that is why BioWare goes out of their way to have a member of the group describe them as crazed.  They are giving extra information to us for descriptive purposes.  If they said nothing someone would complain that the guards are attacking us for no reason!  BioWare merely gave us the reason verbally.  I suppose they could have had an extra cutscene showing a guard go all googly eyed.

[Beerfish]

Zeevico wrote...

More broadly, I take issue with the very large number of fights that take place without much context--senselessly, if you will.

I can give another example.

Take Vale's DLC, Act 1. You fight mercenaries in this set piece. You don't know who they are other than by reference to their location, which is (conveniently enough) pinned down in your map.

They attack you on sight and without warning. They don't even know who you are. You're a bunch of people wandering about. Apparently that's reason enough.

For a set piece that's pathetic. For a set piece you're paying extra for that's even more pathetic.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
you're nitpicking the very minor details about the game. And for what purpose might I ask? You find out why they're crazed in the game from one of Bartrand's dwarven stewards. Bartrand has been force-feeding them lyrium in the attempt to get them to hear the same song he heard.

Yes, but that doesn't happen until a few fights later on in the piece. Until then they're just guards who--according to Varric, but nothing else--"look" crazy.

Consdidering Hawke and co kill hundreds of foes and mobs in the game it's pretty well a given that there is not enough documentation of the enemies.  I agree that this could be improved, it is the old battle though of writing vs game play.  I would not blame the writers for this.  I would assume it goes something like this.

Designers:  We need more combat and more of a challenge so that we can level at a more consistent rated.  Wea re putting in a raft of guards in this house.
Writers:  Okay but how do we reconcile this?  Can we add two cutscenes and 20 extra lines of dialogue to do so?
Designers: No, we are near word  limit as it is, just make them crazed.