17 réponses à ce sujet

[sagefic]

I'm trying to set up a good build for my human noble rogue, and I want to get my plan down before I begin.

I've played a dual-wielder before, not with the best of stats or skills, though, and I came to regret a lot of those choices. I had to bump down the difficulty frequently to get through nasty sections (soloing the Fade). 

My half-baked idea is this: I am interested in playing archer, but I'm not sure if I will love staying back the whole game. Also, tight quarters (Deep Roads), seem better suited for melee.

Are there any good switch-hitting builds out there - as in, focus on abilities and skills that allow you to switch from archery to melee in a pinch? I find that idea more appealing from a game-play and RP point of view.

It seems that the base stats for a Cunning-based archer and a Cunning-based dagger-dual wielder are almost identical, and a lot of guides out there seem to advocate similar skills in the rogue and specialization trees (Bard songs, etc).

Anyhow, just wondering if anyone has done this before or if this is a totally crazy notion. At present in the early levels, I'm doing mostly archery, then occasionally switching to melee when attacked or when finishing off the battle. Perhaps this will change, however, as additional skills will drop my taking aggro or I get additional party members (am only to Ostagar so far). I'm interested in taking on Nightmare, but am not sure if a switch-hitting build is even remotely viable.

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!

Modifié par sagequeen, 23 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Either way, just focus on dexterity+cunning and you can't go wrong.

You'll have to really be picky about what talents you pick up, since you'll have an extra weapon type to focus on.

If you'd rather focus on damage and less with the whole stealth/lockpicking aspect, then it wouldn't hurt to bring along another rogue so you can spend less talents on the rogue tree.

[Hyper_gateway]

I have two rouges character in my DA:O, one is using dual-weapon, the other is with Archery

Velina:http://social.bioware.com/playerprofile.php?char_id=2822536&display=character&nid=2307828465&game=dragonage1_pc&persona_id=270826302

Zethra:http://social.bioware.com/playerprofile.php?char_id=2494868&display=character&nid=2307828465&game=dragonage1_pc&persona_id=270826302

If I understand your idea correctly, what you should mostly develop the skills in daul weapon with sacrificing lockpicking and stealth. To be more specific, here are the skills I would choose:

Dirty Fighting tree: develop til Coup De Grace
Below the Belt tree: all fours talents

Dual-Weapon Training tree: all
Dual Striking tree: all
Dual-Weapon Sweep tree: develop to Momentum

Melee Archer tree: all
Pinning Shot tree: all (optional)

The reason for learning all skills in Dual weapon is your attack will decrease dramaticaly if your character can't frequently "backstab" your enemy and make critical hit. On the other hand, Archery skills are focusing on crowd control, there's on reason to develop those skills if you just plan to hit enemy rather than holding them.

In this way, you can hit enemy with decent amount of damage at first (Arrow of Slaying), and then finish them with your powerful dual weapon.

Hope this could give you some idea, Sage

Btw, this Phoenix Armory are very good in looking also in combat:
http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1660

Modifié par Hyper_gateway, 23 mai 2011 - 06:10 .

[TheBigMatt90]

To start with you want to go with: dual daggers in melee, and a longbow at range. Skills you need to develop are: the whole top row of archery for Aim and Master Archer, and first 3 and last three in the dual weapon tree. If i were you i would go straight for momentum and then the first 2 in first line of DW, then go for Master Archer. First three in the bard tree and some lockpicking are good. Stealth is nice for versatility. Combat movement is good for backstabbing.

[sagefic]

Thank you for the quick and helpful replies. This is great. Hyper, thanks esp. for a peek @ your builds and the link to the phoneix armor. So long as I'm modding this game considerably (the only reason why I'm replaying is really to try and get rogue right AND try out some of these stellar mods I keep seeing) I am definitely adding that one to the pile. Beautiful stuff.

Alright, so it sounds like what I'm hearing is that the melee is better suited to backstab while archery is better suited to crowd control. Thus, I should either pick a strategy to swap between those two styles OR focus on one.

This has been very helpful folks. I'm going to go plan out my build now...

[TheBigMatt90]

Let us know what you come up with, someone will be happy to pro/con it or whatever you need

One more thing, this may help you with Archery:

http://dragonage.wik...icient_Approach

Fundamentally archery talent's should be awesome, but because they take so long to cast very few are as useful as they sound. Also, Arrow of Slaying only works well on certain levels above/below you (its explained in the link)

Finally in my oppinion the Phoenix Armory actual armor looks like it has been made by someone inexperienced with the game - as in it looks to me like the best gear is the heavy armour, something rogues dont really need when they are dagger builds; daggers gain more from dex than strength, and having to put so many more points into str to simply wear the gear isn't worth it to me,  not to mention that heavier armor slows bow speed. The weapons are pretty nice, although there are nicer out there (and within the game, The Roses Thorn and The Edge) but the bows are excellent.

Modifié par TheBigMatt90, 23 mai 2011 - 10:08 .

[sagefic]

Thanks BigMatt.

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking

EDIT - rethinking - 

Because so many battles begin after cut-scenes, i found sneaking, traps, etc. just drove me nuts. i didn't get to use them for the really good stuff.

I like the look of scattershot and armor-piercing arrow. they seem like nice openers for a ranged battle. So perhaps my "switch hitting" would focus on opening with a nice scattershot, a pinning arrow even - just a few talents from the archery tree. this would NOT lead me to do anything with melee archery at all.

once battles begin, allow the tanks (dog, alistair) to pull aggro, then slip around behind to become backstab DW assasin. 

i have a tendency in da:o to get dead if i charge in, but if i pull mobs and plan my battlefield (where i can), things go much more smoothly. so this would allow me to make the rogue into a strategist who uses arrows to pull/debuff, then finishes off with assasin-style attacks.

Yes, i would lose the element of stealth, but again, i found i did not use it much. stealth is really not how i think about gameplay anyhow. my rogues tend to be more pirates than thieves.

anyhow, that's my thinking.

So, for Talents - DW :

Weapon Training to Expert. not sure if i need mastery here, since i plan to DW daggers only (3 talents)
Dual Sweep Tree to momentum (need whirlwind? not sure - 3 talents)
Not sure if the Dual Strike Tree is worth it. impressive animations, but i remember the actual skills having high cost and not being nearly as useful as straight up backstab  + momentum

Archery: Rapid Shot through Scattershot (4 talents)
Maybe pinning shot (1 talent). maybe

Rogue Talents:
Below the Belt through Evasion (is evasion that useful? maybe not. want LEthality for sure though - 4 maybe 3 talents)
Dirty Fighting through Coup de Grace (3 talents) - never found much use for feign death. is it worth it?
Lock picking (at least 1 point to hold me until i find another rogue. i MUST be able to open every chest or my head will explode, might take more than that, if i feel like it

Assassin - full line. naturally.

Other specialization? Bard would be helpful for both archery and DW. also if i use leiliana, i can stack bardsongs

dualist has some nifty stuff also, but not sure if i'll have enough left over for it.

as for skill points, enough in str to equip decent light armor (20 points)
enough in dex to equip the good bows (36, isn't it?)
enough willpower for a decent stamina pool (not sure, but 20 some points)
dump the rest into cunning.

alright, that's my rough plan. let me know if you see something i'm overlooking, and thanks again for the advice.

also, re: the phoenix armor: you may be right about those stats. but i'm a crazy person who wears armor for looks first, stats second. check out my femshep in my adept guide (link in sig) - she's wore a mod with no stats at all through insanity. i find taking hawt but no-stat armor through insanity/nightmare difficulty to be something of a growing hobby. :innocent:

Modifié par sagequeen, 24 mai 2011 - 04:11 .

[jwalker]

TheBigMatt90 wrote...
[...]

Finally in my oppinion the Phoenix Armory actual armor looks like it has been made by someone inexperienced with the game - as in it looks to me like the best gear is the heavy armour, something rogues dont really need when they are dagger builds; daggers gain more from dex than strength, and having to put so many more points into str to simply wear the gear isn't worth it to me,  not to mention that heavier armor slows bow speed. The weapons are pretty nice, although there are nicer out there (and within the game, The Roses Thorn and The Edge) but the bows are excellent.

The Phoenix Armory looks really nice indeed.
And IIRC, neither the Matriarch and Battlemaiden sets from that mod have strength requirements at all, so no worries about "wasting" points there.

The other nice mod with gear for rogues is the Armor of the Black Fox

[sami jo]

I actually love the dual build for a rogue and have a slew of characters that I have used it on.  I tend to start off fights using the bow, picking off the lower level guys while my warriors focus on the bosses.  That keeps my rogue (and mages) from getting mobbed.  When herd has been cleared some or the bad guys get close I switch to DW and move behind the enemies.  DEX/CUN works best with the lethality skill as soon as possible and I equip daggers instead of longswords.  They do less damage but the hit rate is higher.  If your dex is high enough, you will almost never get hit.

The only problem with a dex/cun build is the utter lack of good light armors in-game.  Phoenix armory is wonderful.  The Shadow Warden's Armor and Armor of the Elven Warden are both great as well. 

Edited to add: If you want to play with the look of some of the armors, get the Ultimate Dye Kit (it works great with Phoenix Armory and she has several custom dye patterns you can download with the armory)

Modifié par sami jo, 24 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

[sagefic]

@ sami, jwalker - ooh, very nice. thanks for the links. @ sami, i'm glad to hear that this option is being used. i am definitely finding that i prefer switching between range and melee depending upon terrain. i don't really like being locked into one style, so this seems to be working nicely.

[Hyper_gateway]

sagequeen wrote...

Yes, i would lose the element of stealth, but again, i found i did not use it much. stealth is really not how i think about gameplay anyhow. my rogues tend to be more pirates than thieves.

Stealth is not necessary imo

So, for Talents - DW :

Weapon Training to Expert. not sure if i need mastery here, since i plan to DW daggers only (3 talents)

Master will decrease the stamina costs and let you equip with a main weapon to both hands, which give you a decent extra damage when you are attacking

Dual Sweep Tree to momentum (need whirlwind? not sure - 3 talents)

Whirlwind is not essential since you will hardly surround by enemies given your strategy

Not sure if the Dual Strike Tree is worth it. impressive animations, but i remember the actual skills having high cost and not being nearly as useful as straight up backstab  + momentum

Dual striking can make some serious damage but the stamina costs is very high. But the next talent "Riposte" is extremely using when you needed to stun the enemy rather than "dirty fighting"
With the talents above, you can try this combinations when you need to engage a close encounter:
(with Momentum on) Dirty fighting, Flurry, Riposte, dual weapon sweep......

Below the Belt through Evasion (is evasion that useful? maybe not. want LEthality for sure though - 4 maybe 3 talents)

Evasion is extremely useful when you have high DEX, you can almost ducks all physical attack. Your character will somehow look like dancing through all the attacks

Dirty Fighting through Coup de Grace (3 talents) - never found much use for feign death. is it worth it?

Feign death will only give you laughters

Lock picking (at least 1 point to hold me until i find another rogue. i MUST be able to open every chest or my head will explode, might take more than that, if i feel like it

This is really a give or take choice, there are not many chests need to be picked when you are alone.......

Assassin - full line. naturally.
Other specialization? Bard would be helpful for both archery and DW. also if i use Leliana, i can stack bardsongs

If you use Dual weapon, you should have Duelist as your second specialization. and level it up to Keen defense which with evasion, almost one can hit you even the some of the magic.

as for skill points, enough in str to equip decent light armor (20 points)
enough in dex to equip the good bows (36, isn't it?)
enough willpower for a decent stamina pool (not sure, but 20 some points)
dump the rest into cunning.

As long as you are fast enough with DEX, you won't need that much of hitpoints. And as you may notice, my both rouge has higher DEX than cunning. Each increase will let you do extra damage, but about evasing attack, DEX is needed more than cunning.......and I think there's a formula about the different between DEX and Cunning in DA wiki

[Hyper_gateway]

sagequeen wrote...
Yes, i would lose the element of
stealth, but again, i found i did not use it much. stealth is really not
how i think about gameplay anyhow. my rogues tend to be more pirates
than thieves.

Stealth is not necessary imo

So, for Talents - DW :
Weapon Training to Expert. not sure if i need mastery here, since i plan to DW daggers only (3 talents)

Master will decrease the stamina costs and let you equip with a main weapon to
both hands, which give you a decent extra damage when you are attacking

Dual Sweep Tree to momentum (need whirlwind? not sure - 3 talents)

Whirlwind is not essential since you will hardly surround by enemies given your strategy

Not sure if the Dual Strike Tree is worth it. impressive animations, but i
remember the actual skills having high cost and not being nearly as
useful as straight up backstab  + momentum

Dual striking can
make some serious damage but the stamina costs is very high. But the
next talent "Riposte" is extremely using when you needed to stun the
enemy rather than "dirty fighting"
With the talents above, you can try this combinations when you need to engage a close encounter:
(with Momentum on) Dirty fighting, Flurry, Riposte, dual weapon sweep......

Below the Belt through Evasion (is evasion that useful? maybe not. want LEthality for sure though - 4 maybe 3 talents)

Evasion is extremely useful when you have high DEX, you can almost ducks all
physical attack. Your character will somehow look like dancing through
all the attacks

Dirty Fighting through Coup de Grace (3 talents) - never found much use for feign death. is it worth it?

Feign death will only give you laughters

Lock picking (at least 1 point to hold me until i find another rogue. i MUST
be able to open every chest or my head will explode, might take more
than that, if i feel like it

This is really a give or take choice, there are not many chests need to be picked when you are alone.......

Assassin - full line. naturally.
Other specialization? Bard would be helpful for both archery and DW. also if i use Leliana, i can stack bardsongs

If you use Dual weapon, you should have Duelist as your second specialization. and level it up to Keen defense which with evasion, almost one can hit you even the some of the magic. Keen defense will sometimes fence off the attack like this

as for skill points, enough in str to equip decent light armor (20 points)
enough in dex to equip the good bows (36, isn't it?)
enough willpower for a decent stamina pool (not sure, but 20 some points)
dump the rest into cunning.

Aslong as you are fast enough with DEX, you won't need that much of
hitpoints. And as you may notice, my both rouge has higher DEX than
cunning. Each increase will let you do extra damage, but about evasing
attack, DEX is needed more than cunning.......and I think there's a
formula about the different between DEX and Cunning in DA wiki

As playing a human noble, this mod is a must imo
Of noble cast

Btw, Sage. Do you want some other mods besides armor and looks?

Modifié par Hyper_gateway, 24 mai 2011 - 10:48 .

[TheBigMatt90]

Sounds like a solid build/playstyle, go for it.

Yes they are the best (only) useful Archery talents to take, if you are not that bothered about going solid archer then thats all you need. If you are i would REALLY advise getting Aim and Master Archer (at least eventually). You wont need melee archer.

Master Stealth is good if you find you die lots, you can do it mid combat and get an auto crit on attack out of stealth (good for archer). May be good to invest if you have points left over.

You dont need DW mastery, daggers are much better than fullsize.
Whirlwind is best with a fullsize weapon, if you plan on going backstab nuts then don't bother.
Dual striking is bugged and this makes it useless, avoid it. Riposite isn't bad for chain stunning in 1 on 1 fights, however you shouldnt really be getting attacked that much so...

As I said, if you want to boost your damage/crit/attack with bow then Aim and Master Archer are invaluable.

Every time you dodge you miss an attack, evasion makes you dodge more, meaning you will miss more attacks (that is if you are getting attacked for some reason) but its alright for surviving.
I also never really found much use for FD, however it is good used in conjunction with Taunt.

Bard is better than assassin for a cunning build, you will do much more damage than with Duellist. Cooldown on Pinpoint striking means it loses some usefulness, whereas Song of Courage buffs your entire party.

I don't usually put any points into will, but if you do I would say dont go higher than 20.
Rest sounds good.


If you dont need strength req then go for it, it is some of the best looking armor i have seen.

I like my dex/cun rogue build the best, it does more damage than a pure dex, more survivable than a pure cunning, think I had 70/70 and it was a damn good toon.

Just my 2 cents

[sami jo]

I tend to evenly put points in DEX and CUN. In addition to the damage boost with lethality and the bardic abilities, cunning boosts lockpicking, trap and persuade checks. Each level of the lockpicking skill equates to ten points of cunning, so with a high CUN rogue I can still open every chest and door and disarm every trap with only one or two levels of the skill. It also boosts the nature ability that allows you to detect enemies and do the halla quest. Plus, the persuade options allow for more RP choices.

[sagefic]

@ sami - good advice. i do love to RP persuasion - what's the point of being a well-bred noble with hours of etiquette training if you can't charm the socks of someone? so that's a good consideration.

@ Hyper - actually, just finished kokari wilds, but that's a nice intro mod. i think my femcousland probably WOULD be in armor to start though. just the impression i get from her. i may check out some more armor mods, yes, but i'm not unhappy with the stuff i have. i installed the proportions fix for the female human so she wouldn't look quite so off.

@ big matt & hyber - thanks for the thoughts on my ideas here. it's really helpful to hear some of the considerations re: the skills, since it's been a while since i last played and i don't always run the numbers so well anyhow. and re: dex or cunning - i think i'll level them equally for now, then see if i'm leaning to more time with the bow or the DW, but may end up just putting in equal points to each. so far, i'm definitely enjoying arrows as an opener, then backstabs to finish stuff off. worked great in the wilds to pull mobs around corners, etc. into close quarters for getting killed by everyone else.

now, if only they had a vanguard-style CHARGE to get me into close range after that arrow opener, i'd be set. but somehow, i don't see that happening.

Modifié par sagequeen, 24 mai 2011 - 06:33 .

[Last Darkness]

make sure to set traps too.

[mosesofwar]

Use the KISS method: Keep It Simple Stupid. Basically, you should decide which are you want to fcous on more and pick up more passives in the other area. For instance, if you want to focus more on Arhcery, you may want to look at the DW Passive line. Also, you may not need Stealth, or Evasion or Combat Movement, etc. I personally think if you want to Hybrid DW/Archery, you'd be better set as a DPS Warrior as many of the Base warrior skills you could forgoe, while many of the base Rogue skills come in handy. On the flip side, there are many Warrior Abilities that you could pick up to benefit a Hybrid style- Disengage, Precise Striking/Perfect Strike, Beserker Spec (Which will work wonders with Hybrdif Character). You won't have the number of skills that you would as a Rogue, but you'll be effective in combat without gimping your character. Also, you'll be able to use Crossbows .

Modifié par mosesofwar, 04 juillet 2011 - 07:43 .

[Last Darkness]

I highly Suggest focusing more on melee and less on ranged so you can use range as a pulling and alpha strike power (Arrow of Slaying, Scattershot) then switch to superior melee.

The main problem is archery as presented in Origins and Awakening, takes more effert then any other style to make it useful. More so for a rogue since due to specialisations the warriors are superior then the rogues. (Warriors, make better Archers lol)