211 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

More squad banter in ME3 would be awesome.

Agreed

[Cosmar]

Mister Ford wrote...

lol, six more pages of a topic that's already been done ten thousand times.

So.....have we found anything new to complain about, something that would merit the creation of thread 10,001 about why ME2 sucked?

Sigh...yet another person who has completely missed the point and obviously not read any posts in this thread. Gets kind of tiring.

[coolair74]

I think alot of ppl are mistaking this for a pure RPG when what they have is a 3rd person narritive. Its an interactive movie. It had great writing and I think it was well paced. DA 2 had a dreadful story and a crappy ending. ME2 was a lead in for ME3. YOu got alot of backstory and new characters and more development of the currrent politics going on. In both ME1 and 2 you had build relations with other species as possible allies against Harbinger. I rather liked the simplicity of equipment, it took away the fluff that got in the way in ME1.

I really enjoyed playing it and have probably finished it 7 or 8 times.

[Da Mecca]

coolair74 wrote...

I think alot of ppl are mistaking this for a pure RPG when what they have is a 3rd person narritive. Its an interactive movie. It had great writing and I think it was well paced. DA 2 had a dreadful story and a crappy ending. ME2 was a lead in for ME3. YOu got alot of backstory and new characters and more development of the currrent politics going on. In both ME1 and 2 you had build relations with other species as possible allies against Harbinger. I rather liked the simplicity of equipment, it took away the fluff that got in the way in ME1.

I really enjoyed playing it and have probably finished it 7 or 8 times.

If I wanted to see a movie I'd watch one(Just saw the new Pirates of The Carribean, it was fantastic)

Plus I don't think that's what Mass Effect is at all.

Uncharted maybe, Heavy Rain definitely, but not Mass Effect.

[MassEffect762]

The short and simple.

The writing/story execution and destination fell flat and did not engage me in the game.

The neutered game mechanics(imo) such as squad/armor/weapon upgrades and abilites/skilltree customization/depth did not meet or exceed expectations from previous game.

Too much shooting, not enough interesting dialogue/decisions or story advancement regarding Shepard and the Reapers.

I guess it's to be expected with EA at the helm.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 25 mai 2011 - 02:14 .

[Darkhour]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Between re-defining/retconning prior-character relationships (such as the Tali infatuation),

A retcon would mean that Tali and Shepard did not get along and hated each other.  That simply is not the case.

There is nothing in ME1 that precludes infatuation with Shepard on Tali's part. There is enough dialog between her and Shepard to conclude that was was fond of him, assuming you were paragon toward her. Between the end of ME1 and the beginning of ME2 there is nothing storywise that would invalidate the idea that she developed a crush.

]A retcon would mean all sorts of things, depending on the
retcon. Adding in significant plot/character elements that were never
there, and then treating them as if they were (Liara in the LotSB), counts. It may not be a particular huge retcon, compared to some other infamous examples, but retroactively re-charactering someone in a sequel certainly does count.

A retcon is not simply if something previously stated was reversed: a retcon can also be the addition of elements that were never there. Tali's infatuation for any Shepard, Paragon or Renegade, male or female (via the Shadow Broker files), regardless of whether they handed over the Pilgrimage data or not, is an example of a retroactive continuity.

Retconning what exactly.

They changed over the years. How is developing as a person a retcon?

So Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara, Fist, Helena Blake, Shiala, Gianna Parasini were retconned? And Luke Skywalker was retconned in Return of the Jedi? Obi Wan was retconned in A New Hope. Anakin was retconned in Revenge of the Sith? I could go on. 

[fivefingaslap18]

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Between re-defining/retconning prior-character relationships (such as the Tali infatuation),

A retcon would mean that Tali and Shepard did not get along and hated each other.  That simply is not the case.

There is nothing in ME1 that precludes infatuation with Shepard on Tali's part. There is enough dialog between her and Shepard to conclude that was was fond of him, assuming you were paragon toward her. Between the end of ME1 and the beginning of ME2 there is nothing storywise that would invalidate the idea that she developed a crush.

]A retcon would mean all sorts of things, depending on the
retcon. Adding in significant plot/character elements that were never
there, and then treating them as if they were (Liara in the LotSB), counts. It may not be a particular huge retcon, compared to some other infamous examples, but retroactively re-charactering someone in a sequel certainly does count.

A retcon is not simply if something previously stated was reversed: a retcon can also be the addition of elements that were never there. Tali's infatuation for any Shepard, Paragon or Renegade, male or female (via the Shadow Broker files), regardless of whether they handed over the Pilgrimage data or not, is an example of a retroactive continuity.

Retconning what exactly.

They changed over the years. How is developing as a person a retcon?

So Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara, Fist, Helena Blake, Shiala, Gianna Parasini were retconned? And Luke Skywalker was retconned in Return of the Jedi? Obi Wan was retconned in A New Hope. Anakin was retconned in Revenge of the Sith? I could go on. 

What bothers me more is that people seem to forget the way Liz Stroka voiced Tali too in ME1. If you listen to the character whenever she greets Shepard and when Shepard leaves: there is love there. Tali was never a confident character sexually. She is smart and believes in herself, yes, but not sexually. She is shy that way. I know these people and the impish love shows through in the speech. To think that it's not there at all is almost blasphemous. Listen to her voice acting for ME1 again. Her character may have been more confident in the sequel, but that's by bad writing. Part of the reason why I fell in love with Tali in the 1st game was because of her speech. Her adorable sullen talks after you would leave and her euphoric tone when she would see you come and talk to her like she mattered to you.

Tali was always supposed to be a love interest if you look at the voice acting. If you don't, Tali is just another crew member.

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

If I were regulated to a single
choice, then the main plot receives my vote. The utterly lack of
continuality, proper exposition, frequent inconsistencies and plan out
poor writing gave the immediately impression ME2 was merely BioWare
attempting to stall for time as they did not have quite as much content
to stretch a trilogy as they had anticipated. I could give a full on
thesis like I have done in the past but for the moment this shall
suffice. Most people are aware of the flaws in the plot, whether or not
they choose to acknowledge them.

Bourne Endeavor pretty muched summed up my feelings.  I enjoyed ME2 overall, but the main story was a complete waste of potential.  And if the crew I put together winds up playing little or no part in ME3, it will drag ME2 down even further.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Aumata wrote...
The entire plot line for Arrival could have been done nicely actually.  Thanks to arrival, the entire plot of Mass Effect 2 seems like it was one big sidequest.  The sucide mission is a joke, collectors are a joke, the entire plot becomes a joke, and the sad part for me is that the DLC stories are far better than what the vanilla game was.  They hype the hell out of the sucide mission, and it doesn't hold a candle, you really have to aim for a kill'em all play style to get why it is a sucide mission, or rush through the game.  The second dark act is pretty much a joke at this point.  In fact I would dare say mixing Arrival plot with being the suicide mission would fare well.

Which is why they should've only allowed Arrival to be played after the suicide mission.

Honestly, it's why the plot of Arrival should have been the plot to Mass Effect 2.  Make the Collector base a sub-plot that explains how the Reapers woke up and warns us they're on the way.  Then have the third act be a desperate attempt to locate and destroy the Alpha Relay before the Reapers can use it.  That would have given them enough time to build up to the destruction of the Batarian colony, and allowed the rest of the cast to react to it.  Plus, it would have allowed ME2 to continue the overall Reaper story, rather spend its time steadfastly ignoring it.

Instead, we got a painfully padded ME2 Collector plot, followed (unless you play it pre-SM!) by a painfully rushed Arrival.  Worst of both worlds.

[Dean_the_Young]

Darkhour wrote...

Retconning what exactly.

In this case? Tali's crush on Shepard being something that had been going on from the start, obvious enough that 'even socially awkward Liara' would know.

They changed over the years. How is developing as a person a retcon?

Tali's 'obviously crushing on Shepard from the start' wasn't a developing over the years, but something retroactively added.

So Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara, Fist, Helena Blake, Shiala, Gianna Parasini were retconned?

No, nor did I claim such.

 
And Luke Skywalker was retconned in Return of the Jedi? Obi Wan was retconned in A New Hope. Anakin was retconned in Revenge of the Sith? I could go on. 

Sure. You could also return to the discussion at hand and make relevant analogies, not strawmen. Or you could do those instead.

[Ausstig]

This will go against the tide here. But for me it was the lack of a "Sure Ok TIM you lead" option in the final conversation, my Shep is a colonist and LOATHES aliens and TIM is smart and a good planner, so he would want him to lead. Every option was confrontational, needlessly for my Shep who always supported TIM

Also I guess they should have done more to make Shep, try to leave Cerberus, say go straight to the citadel, then get chewed out/ dismissed by the council, or something

[dreman9999]

fivefingaslap18 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

So, if we're not directly fighting the Reapers instead of building up characters and meeting different factions to later stop servants of the Reapers as a small step towards future victories, that's bad writing?

To Da Mecca, okay was curious. Forum posts can sometimes get lost in translation if someone posts fast enough.

What're you doing in ME3 dude? You're going to go around to different factions (races/pirates/etc.) to fight alongside you, getting allies onto your ship (squad or not), and finding weapons to combat the Reapers. What part of that is different from the 3rd installment? That is the 3rd installment.

If we're using the hero's story as an example for storytelling and in this case Mass Effect as a trilogy tell me where the biggest fall should be for our hero in the hero's journey archetype? For those of you that don't know the hero's journey, here we go.

Exposition, Point of Attack, Rising Action, Hero's Loss, Falling Action, Gain of Powers, Rising Action, Climax, and then Falling Action to Denoumante.

Where is that in the sense of the trilogy?

ME1- Exposition, Point of Attack, Rising Action
ME2- Hero's Loss, Falling Action, Gain of Powers, Rising Action
ME3- Climax and then Falling Action to Denoumante

Exposition- being brought into this new world, Point of Attack- we found out about the Reapers and that they are truly real, not just Shepard's mind playing tricks on him!!!!, Rising Action- we kill a REAPER!!! Game changer!!!

Introduction of story and also the precursor for the threat that is to come. It was a threat. It took multiple fleets to kill Sovereign and save the Citadel. It was huge, it was hard to do. This is acceptable and feels insurmountable. This is a true exposition, point of attack, and rising action for a new game. We need to feel hopefulness instead of why buy the next 2.

Hero's Loss- death of Shepard and Normandy, Falling Action- there is none, Gain of Powers- literally new power schemes and also Cerberus, Rising Action- We kill collectors and have what proof of the Reapers that won't be discredited???

Horrible writing. You just basically said have fun until the 3rd installment comes out. You're not fighting the major threat. Certainly Saren wasn't the major threat in the 1st game until the end where we found out he wasn't the threat!!! In ME2 you know who is the threat. THE REAPERS!!!! If THEY'RE the threat don't make me fight their servants when if it weren't for me killing Saren the apocalypse would've occurred. The Collector's picking up humans is child's play. Send 2 dreadnaughts with Reaper like Thannix cannons and that thing would've been toast. End of story!!! Shepard being rebuilt was for combat purposes only. It was poor storytelling and writing to say hey, you've been dead for so long you have to relearn how to use abilities because we wanted to change the combat.

Don't get me started on SOLE SURVIVORS working for Cerberus. My main was one of them and I hated that I HAD to work for Cerberus. I didn't mind ENTERTAINING them for a bit, but I'm not allowed in anyway to undermine them until the END of the game? I can't get any feedback if I send the Alliance intel on the interrogated man who info on Cerberus. I can't do anything to truly undermine them except take me and the Normandy away from them. Honestly, that was a sad state for people who wanted to do that.

If you're presented with a ship while working for a man you hate, who killed off your entire platoon wouldn't you not want to work with him and his organization? I run a Star Wars D20 game with my friends. They work for a group like Cerberus. The difference, he grabbed people not of his species. He asked them to fight a major evil. He also let them have their own ship! They can fly away and stop whenever they want! What's the difference? He doesn't stab his people in the back! They know that he's sending them against impossible odds. Yet they know if they get hurt or close to death and he runs into them with his fleets of ships: they're gonna get protected. Can you really say the same for the Illusive Man and his people?

I strongly dissagree. For one, no story has to fallow the furmula you posted to be well written. The next point with the sole surviver working with Cerberus you do have you moments  to hate on Cerberus. Eveny time I'm asked about Cerburus from so one in the game as  Sole surviver, I always tell them how much I hate them. I also gave TIM the finger at the end of the game and took his Ship.

So you do get to tell him off. As for you aspect of not work with Cerburus no matter what, Logicly you have no choice. The Normandy was the most advanced ship in the alliance, a state of the art stealth ship and the collecter found it and destoryed it in stealth mode. Do you think the Alliance has any more ships like that hang around. Add on the fact that they don't have the resources to make another one due to the battle of the citidel. So go ahead, turn you back on Cerburuses offer, you won't have a ship to even get started on the mission. As for the whole collecter battles, this is just the start of the reaper invasion. You basicly, just stopping them from getting an early foot hold before the major fighting really starts.

[Seboist]

What's also weird is that TIM even scolds a Renegade Shepard for being "idealistic".

[dreman9999]

fivefingaslap18 wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Between re-defining/retconning prior-character relationships (such as the Tali infatuation),

A retcon would mean that Tali and Shepard did not get along and hated each other.  That simply is not the case.

There is nothing in ME1 that precludes infatuation with Shepard on Tali's part. There is enough dialog between her and Shepard to conclude that was was fond of him, assuming you were paragon toward her. Between the end of ME1 and the beginning of ME2 there is nothing storywise that would invalidate the idea that she developed a crush.

]A retcon would mean all sorts of things, depending on the
retcon. Adding in significant plot/character elements that were never
there, and then treating them as if they were (Liara in the LotSB), counts. It may not be a particular huge retcon, compared to some other infamous examples, but retroactively re-charactering someone in a sequel certainly does count.

A retcon is not simply if something previously stated was reversed: a retcon can also be the addition of elements that were never there. Tali's infatuation for any Shepard, Paragon or Renegade, male or female (via the Shadow Broker files), regardless of whether they handed over the Pilgrimage data or not, is an example of a retroactive continuity.

Retconning what exactly.

They changed over the years. How is developing as a person a retcon?

So Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara, Fist, Helena Blake, Shiala, Gianna Parasini were retconned? And Luke Skywalker was retconned in Return of the Jedi? Obi Wan was retconned in A New Hope. Anakin was retconned in Revenge of the Sith? I could go on. 

What bothers me more is that people seem to forget the way Liz Stroka voiced Tali too in ME1. If you listen to the character whenever she greets Shepard and when Shepard leaves: there is love there. Tali was never a confident character sexually. She is smart and believes in herself, yes, but not sexually. She is shy that way. I know these people and the impish love shows through in the speech. To think that it's not there at all is almost blasphemous. Listen to her voice acting for ME1 again. Her character may have been more confident in the sequel, but that's by bad writing. Part of the reason why I fell in love with Tali in the 1st game was because of her speech. Her adorable sullen talks after you would leave and her euphoric tone when she would see you come and talk to her like she mattered to you.

Tali was always supposed to be a love interest if you look at the voice acting. If you don't, Tali is just another crew member.

I begining to think that you think everything is bad writing. As for Tali is ME1, Sexually she made no indication or refecance to anything sexual at all. Just to the fact that she did not like being in her suit all the time. The simple fact that she evolved in this is just character growth. Is she to stay in hibernation as a character for two years? As anyone stay exactly the same for two years? Are you the exact same person from two yers age? I know I'm not. If character growth is a recon, then every character ever made is a recon.

[dreman9999]

Seboist wrote...

What's also weird is that TIM even scolds a Renegade Shepard for being "idealistic".

He only does that if you ageinst keeping the base.....How is it weird?

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2011 - 04:54 .

[Reapinger]

Errr, if you want a true RPG then quit ****ing and go play WoW. Even TES have a main plot that you have to complete eventually. Quit crying about it not being a "true" RPG.

[Darkhour]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In this case? Tali's crush on Shepard being something that had been going on from the start, obvious enough that 'even socially awkward Liara' would know.

What dialog in ME1 gave the the impression that she did not develope a crush on Shepard.

What particular dialog in ME2 gave you the impression that she had the hots for Shepards from the moment you meet her in ME1.

Because all I'm hearing from you is "She wasn't a romantic options before, but now she is so therefore they retconned her".

Tali's 'obviously crushing on Shepard from the start' wasn't a developing over the years, but something retroactively added.

So you say. I say that ice is hot. Doesn't make it true.

I'm not sure what you mean by "from the start". Treating her nicely will have her stating that Shepard is a great guy and that she will stick with him til the end, and obvious 1-2 months after the end (which you know nothing about) as she was still on the Normandy after the threat had ended. 

No, nor did I claim such.

Of course you did. Character developement equals retcon in your book.

 
And Luke Skywalker was retconned in Return of the Jedi? Obi Wan was retconned in A New Hope. Anakin was retconned in Revenge of the Sith? I could go on. 

Sure. You could also return to the discussion at hand and make relevant analogies, not strawmen. Or you could do those instead.

You don't seem to know the difference between a strawman and a question. Please, answer the questions or are you ignoring them because you realize your error and your pride prevents you from admitting it?

Modifié par Darkhour, 25 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[dreman9999]

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

If I were regulated to a single
choice, then the main plot receives my vote. The utterly lack of
continuality, proper exposition, frequent inconsistencies and plan out
poor writing gave the immediately impression ME2 was merely BioWare
attempting to stall for time as they did not have quite as much content
to stretch a trilogy as they had anticipated. I could give a full on
thesis like I have done in the past but for the moment this shall
suffice. Most people are aware of the flaws in the plot, whether or not
they choose to acknowledge them.

Bourne Endeavor pretty muched summed up my feelings.  I enjoyed ME2 overall, but the main story was a complete waste of potential.  And if the crew I put together winds up playing little or no part in ME3, it will drag ME2 down even further.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Aumata wrote...
The entire plot line for Arrival could have been done nicely actually.  Thanks to arrival, the entire plot of Mass Effect 2 seems like it was one big sidequest.  The sucide mission is a joke, collectors are a joke, the entire plot becomes a joke, and the sad part for me is that the DLC stories are far better than what the vanilla game was.  They hype the hell out of the sucide mission, and it doesn't hold a candle, you really have to aim for a kill'em all play style to get why it is a sucide mission, or rush through the game.  The second dark act is pretty much a joke at this point.  In fact I would dare say mixing Arrival plot with being the suicide mission would fare well.

Which is why they should've only allowed Arrival to be played after the suicide mission.

Honestly, it's why the plot of Arrival should have been the plot to Mass Effect 2.  Make the Collector base a sub-plot that explains how the Reapers woke up and warns us they're on the way.  Then have the third act be a desperate attempt to locate and destroy the Alpha Relay before the Reapers can use it.  That would have given them enough time to build up to the destruction of the Batarian colony, and allowed the rest of the cast to react to it.  Plus, it would have allowed ME2 to continue the overall Reaper story, rather spend its time steadfastly ignoring it.

Instead, we got a painfully padded ME2 Collector plot, followed (unless you play it pre-SM!) by a painfully rushed Arrival.  Worst of both worlds.

1.I see in no way that ME2 was poorly written and inconsistan. The story was about preparing for a suicide mission, and thus to stay that way for the entire game.
2. As much as I can see your point, Doing the arrival plot for the entire story for ME2 would minimalize one of ME2 biggest strenghts, expantion of the universes lore. People forget that in ME1 you were stuck with Human colonies,
the citidel, and a bunch of empty planets. In ME2, their more populated areas to got and more lore added on to the story of ME2.

[Seboist]

dreman9999 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

What's also weird is that TIM even scolds a Renegade Shepard for being "idealistic".

He only does that if you ageinst keeping the base.....How is it weird?

He says "don't let idealism blind you" after Renegade Shep says "Human dominance.... or just Cerberus?". Granted, the game depriving me of saying "I support you TIM" is also part of the problem.

[Dean_the_Young]

Darkhour wrote...

What dialog in ME1 gave the the impression that she did not develope a crush on Shepard.

All of it, because none of it suggested anything of the sort.

Characterization is not made by the absence of evidence disproving something. Rather, characterization is made by evidence demonstrating something. You do not disprove a negative, you show a positive. To characterize Tali as having been infatuated with Shepard during ME1, some sort of characterization demonstrating Tali's infatuation during ME1 would have been necessary. It could have been a conversation. Or something recounted by another character in ME1. Or a data pad. Or, well, just about any medium of communication during ME1 itself.

Had Tali's crush grown after the effects of ME1, that would fit the concept of inter-game development. It wouldn't have been supported by the first game, but then it wouldn't have needed to be. But the assertion in ME2 that Tali was crushing even during ME1, a change of the portrayal of her characterization during that period, would be a retcon.

What particular dialog in ME2 gave you the impression that she had the hots for Shepards from the moment you meet her in ME1.

The ME2 Tali love interest dialogue, Shadow Broker files, and Liara dialogue if you've romanced Tali.

Because all I'm hearing from you is "She wasn't a romantic options before, but now she is so therefore they retconned her".

Check your ears. Or, more literally, your eyes.

Tali developing an interest in Shepard in the time after ME1 would be off-screen development. Tali being credited with harboring romantic feelings from the start, when no dialogue or context in ME1 suggested anything of the sort, is a retcon of characterization in ME1 itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by "from the start". Treating her nicely will have her stating that Shepard is a great guy and that she will stick with him til the end, and obvious 1-2 months after the end (which you know nothing about) as she was still on the Normandy after the threat had ended. 

And respect indicates romance... since when?

No one has in this argument has claimed that Tali didn't respect or admire Shepard in ME1.

Of course you did. Character developement equals retcon in your book.

False position I never made? 
Check.

You don't seem to know the difference between a strawman and a question. Please, answer the questions or are you ignoring them because you realize your error and your pride prevents you from admitting it?

A strawman argument would be, for example, you suggesting that I had claimed that all the prior characters you listed were retconned.

When I did not such thing.

Since it was not my argument, but an argument you invented and attributed to me, that would make it a strawman argument. Another example would be your assertion of what characterizes character development and retconning by my book.

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

What dialog in ME1 gave the the impression that she did not develope a crush on Shepard.

All of it, because none of it suggested anything of the sort.

Characterization is not made by the absence of evidence disproving something. Rather, characterization is made by evidence demonstrating something. You do not disprove a negative, you show a positive. To characterize Tali as having been infatuated with Shepard during ME1, some sort of characterization demonstrating Tali's infatuation during ME1 would have been necessary. It could have been a conversation. Or something recounted by another character in ME1. Or a data pad. Or, well, just about any medium of communication during ME1 itself.

Had Tali's crush grown after the effects of ME1, that would fit the concept of inter-game development. It wouldn't have been supported by the first game, but then it wouldn't have needed to be. But the assertion in ME2 that Tali was crushing even during ME1, a change of the portrayal of her characterization during that period, would be a retcon.

What particular dialog in ME2 gave you the impression that she had the hots for Shepards from the moment you meet her in ME1.

The ME2 Tali love interest dialogue, Shadow Broker files, and Liara dialogue if you've romanced Tali.

Because all I'm hearing from you is "She wasn't a romantic options before, but now she is so therefore they retconned her".

Check your ears. Or, more literally, your eyes.

Tali developing an interest in Shepard in the time after ME1 would be off-screen development. Tali being credited with harboring romantic feelings from the start, when no dialogue or context in ME1 suggested anything of the sort, is a retcon of characterization in ME1 itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by "from the start". Treating her nicely will have her stating that Shepard is a great guy and that she will stick with him til the end, and obvious 1-2 months after the end (which you know nothing about) as she was still on the Normandy after the threat had ended. 

And respect indicates romance... since when?

No one has in this argument has claimed that Tali didn't respect or admire Shepard in ME1.

Of course you did. Character developement equals retcon in your book.

False position I never made? 
Check.

You don't seem to know the difference between a strawman and a question. Please, answer the questions or are you ignoring them because you realize your error and your pride prevents you from admitting it?

A strawman argument would be, for example, you suggesting that I had claimed that all the prior characters you listed were retconned.

When I did not such thing.

Since it was not my argument, but an argument you invented and attributed to me, that would make it a strawman argument. Another example would be your assertion of what characterizes character development and retconning by my book.

Wait, you because she did not say it doesn't mean she was or was not. The fact she doesn't say anything just leaves it open to it interpitation. The only way it could be a recon is if goes ageinst something said or done in the first game.
example:I made Anders a blood mage in Awakening.......In DA2, He's ageinst blood magic.
That's a retcon

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2011 - 08:38 .

[Nashiktal]

Just to clarify Dean, your problem with the Tali romance isn't the romance itself, but how they spun Tali as crushing on shep since the beginning, with no indication?

[Nozybidaj]

Easy, the story.

More specifically the complete (mis)handling of the ME1 characters.

[dreman9999]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Easy, the story.

More specifically the complete (mis)handling of the ME1 characters.

How was the ME1 characters missed handled?
Garrus was a recless vigilante in ME1.  He became even more of one in ME2.
Tali just harden a little bit and now feel here people goverment are tools.
Liara, who was obsessive in ME1, became even more obsessive in ME2. And that was solve in LotSB.
With VS......They just dissagreed with you.

None of it was bad at all.

As for the story. Your perparing for a suicide mission on a base that's protected by a relay and being in the center of the galaxy. Every thing you do is to prepare for it. Nothing bad about that.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2011 - 08:35 .

[Darkhour]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Characterization is not made by the absence of evidence disproving something.

 
That wasn't my point.  You see, you are claiming that some kind of retcon took place which would indicate that it is explicitely stating or prepresented in some manner that Tali is not intersted in Shepard at any point in ME1.  This is not the case.

Rather, characterization is made by evidence demonstrating something.

Other people disagree with you and take some dialog, as well as the way she delivers said dialog, to demonstrate a growing affection toward Shepard. Not saying any opinion is more valid than another, but both sides are merely personal perception; not hard fact. You speak as if there is some hard evidence proving she wasn't interested. If you disagree with my conclusion concerning your viewpoint, then on what basis can you claim any retcon took place?

The ME2 Tali love interest dialogue, Shadow Broker files, and Liara dialogue if you've romanced Tali.

What dialog in particular gives you the impression that she had a crush on Shepard from "the start", which I presume to mean when they first meet.

What exactly does she say. Word for word. You simply saying "her dialog" doesn't help your case. Because I can say her ME1 dialog demonstrates a crush. Would that be enough to convince you?

Tali developing an interest in Shepard in the time after ME1 would be off-screen development. Tali being credited with harboring romantic feelings from the start, when no dialogue or context in ME1 suggested anything of the sort, is a retcon of characterization in ME1 itself.

She isn't credited with harboring romantic feelings from "the start". Your point is mute.

And respect indicates romance... since when?

You say respect, someone else says infatuation.

I'm not arguing in favor of one side or the other.  The issue is this idea that there is no possible way that she had any romantic leaning whatsoever toward Shepard at any point in ME1.  From a design perspective, I agree with you. I don't think Bioware intended for her to seen as a romantic possibility as they didn't expect the mask and chicken legs to be ignored. But alot of people held out on Liara/Ashley waiting for a chance to start a proper romance with her in ME1. Alot of people saw something that you did not. I saw a little sister character looking up to me and liking me platonically, but many others saw a shy girl whose voice and delivery conveyed something more. Both opinions are valid. It could be taken either way. There is nothing definitive that makes it clear that she was not, in fact, infatuated with Shepard. To claim to know what was going on inside her head is alittle presumptuous, don't you think?

False position I never made?

You made it. You can deny it all you want, but in the end of the day that is exactly what you are conveying rather that is your intention or not. It seems to me that you are claiming that Tali not developing a crush on Shepard in ME1 is a fact. If you're not, then you have no argument.

A strawman argument would be, for example, you suggesting that I had claimed that all the prior characters you listed were retconned.
When I did not such thing.

I inferred that by your logic they were retconned as well. And it was in the form of a question. A strawman would be me stating that you said something you did not say (and proceeding to tear down "your" false position). I asked a question which you opted to ignore.

You say water is wet.
I infer by your logic, that milk is wet and orange juice is wet.

I ask, "So by your logic milk and orange juice is wet? Lemonade is wet? Tilex bathroom tile spray is wet?

You reply, "That's a strawman!!! I never said that!!"

Do you understand now?

Modifié par Darkhour, 25 mai 2011 - 07:04 .