278 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

first of all i hate enemy protections so im completely biased. i really wanted to know what a general consensus says about the way enemy protections work in ME2 and how they could be improved for ME3.

there was another big reveal about weapons and im concerned about my second personal anticipated change for ME3, and it lies within enemy protections. this is even related to how bioware uses its difficulty settings, not just an arbitrary layer of "blah" that stops the majority of my abilities. id also like to hear about different ways to create challenge in ME3 other then enemy protections. maybe like destructible environments for adepts, or something.

or maybe my adept in ME3 will still be staggering enemies for half a second!

so whats you opinion of enemy protections/difficulty settings?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 mai 2011 - 12:18 .

[lazuli]

What "big reveal" are you referring to?

[Adhin]

I think its 'ok' but I wish Barriers and Shields didn't stop powers, or split that up so barrier prevent Biotics and Shields prevent Tech powers. Or have it so only Armor does. But there just currently glorified health extensions that limit power use to much.

Personally I'd like to see things working a bit more like they did in ME1 as far as thats concerned, Barrier/Shields regenerate if you don't damage them to often, anything in a suit of armor gets an armor bar (that doesn't regenerate). Also think Armor should function more like the old FPS standard. 100% = 100% dmg absorption, past 90% it starts to grade till your around 40% where its only absorbing 20% of dmg till its gone (20% the whole way or so). I think adding an Armor bar that functions like that for Shep and Squadies (that regenerates after battle or can be healed) would be nice too.

I basically want it more complex and more diverse with less restriction on players. Currently, even on Insanity, HP is so horribly low on enemies that the battles basically over by the time you CAN use a power. Half the time lifting insta-kills **** which is just aggravating. Your trying to be all tactical and 'lifting' someone kills them? What they do, sprain there NECK floating?

Also with think non-damaging powers should you know, NOT DO DAMAGE.

[Da Mecca]

Nice concept, but done wrong.

Shield do not make you immune to biotics.

Barriers should be the only thing that can negate biotics(Unless it's warp


Armor should resist damage not negate it.

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

What "big reveal" are you referring to?

i was reffering to the type of ammo ME3 is going to be using.

[Someone With Mass]

ME3 will still use ammo powers, so I wouldn't expect much to change.

[Someone With Mass]

Also, some enemies will have armor or weapons the player can shoot off. I think that's better than some ammo that can affect two layers at a time.

[Adhin]

Yeah I like the idea of shooting off armor, or using biotics to rip off 'shields' (like LotSB end boss fight only, actually removing the shield). I'll like it regardless of if its completely unchanged, I just hope its more complex in a fun and interesting way. To simple and basic in ME2.

[Dave666]

If they keep the current system then a few changes need to be made or it just remains unfair.

1: If protections still stop Biotics then the health bar needs to be extended. As it currently stands by the time you're able to use an ability the enemy is literally half dead, so whats the point?

2: Protections need to offer some sort of serious impediment to the gun-centric classes. As it is now all they equate to is more health to shoot, its just that half of it is coloured Blue, Yellow or Purple. Big deal. So the gun-centric classes (who have stronger guns and weapon damage boosts in their passives) need to shoot a bit more. How does that even come close to completely nullifying an Adepts primary abilities?

*Edit*  In regards to the idea that Adepts can pull physical shields out of enemies hands.  Big woop.  A Soldier can do that if they bring along a squaddie with Pull.

Modifié par Dave666, 24 mai 2011 - 12:46 .

[Adhin]

That's not the point really. The idea 'armor' may move more into the realm of things you can remove by shooting or powers is more interesting then **** just being completely nullified. For instance if a guy has a big Shield, like a literal 'Shield' and thats what nullifies stuff and you can 'rip' it off... I just think its more interesting then a ****ty HP bar extention.

[Captain Kibosh]

Da Mecca wrote...

Nice concept, but done wrong.

Shield do not make you immune to biotics.

Barriers should be the only thing that can negate biotics(Unless it's warp


Armor should resist damage not negate it.

I was also bothered by the way enemy defenses work in terms of biotics and tech.  If you played as Soldier class, it seemed like your different bullet types could work through the different defenses (kinetic barriers, armor, and barrier).

But biotics and tech were pretty much rendered useless until you wore down enemy defenses (via bullets), revealing the HUD of the enemy's red bar indicating "exposed and ever-so-vulnerable flesh."

But is it true that a kinetic barrier would stop a biotic attack?  Can anyone cite the official lore on that?  Within limits, I think a kinetic barrier could deflect or blunt an object propelled by biotic power--a projectile is a projectile regardless of the force initiating it.  But what about an attack of pure biotic force like "Throw"?  Is that kinetic energy?  Shouldn't a kinectic barrier be able to deflect that?  And I don't think ANYTHING should be able to defend against a singularity, so maybe the gameplay limitation would be its recharge time.

I agree about armor, it should reduce damage but not make one immune to biotics.  And why should AI Control be stopped by armor?  Maybe the rationale is that the armor serves as insulation against hacking attacks?  Meh.  In terms of more "fair" gameplay, maybe armor could reduce the chances of a successful hack or shorten the time for AI control altogether.

[Adhin]

Its the idea of a Biotic vs a Biotic, think about it. in ME2 Liara when she kills said person, mentions her 'Barriers needed some work'. Also Samara vs Morinth force to cancel out force. Shields wouldn't be able to do this as it would require constant manipulation to counter things. Barriers makes sense since its something the Biotic user is physically 'doing'. Shields exist just to deflect bullets.

Only reason I can think of something stopping biotic powers other then some kinda dampener in armor like they did in ME1 where certain things had better resistant to powers (which didn't really do squat). Either way the idea Armor, Shields and Barriers just cancel out powers is a little silly. I dunno how anything but armor cancels out Cryo blast. if a Shield could stop the slow moving freezy-glob you wouldn't ever be able to sit down, walk, or open doors. You'd basically be floating off the ground on your ass.

[The Spamming Troll]

Dave666 wrote...

If they keep the current system then a few changes need to be made or it just remains unfair.

1: If protections still stop Biotics then the health bar needs to be extended. As it currently stands by the time you're able to use an ability the enemy is literally half dead, so whats the point?

2: Protections need to offer some sort of serious impediment to the gun-centric classes. As it is now all they equate to is more health to shoot, its just that half of it is coloured Blue, Yellow or Purple. Big deal. So the gun-centric classes (who have stronger guns and weapon damage boosts in their passives) need to shoot a bit more. How does that even come close to completely nullifying an Adepts primary abilities?

*Edit*  In regards to the idea that Adepts can pull physical shields out of enemies hands.  Big woop.  A Soldier can do that if they bring along a squaddie with Pull.

good ponts.

1. not to mention those enemies in health are most likely already being CCed from an ammo power. enemeis in the red arent a threat, so they arent worth a cooldown. its easy enough to continue killing them with the remainder of your clip.

2. i dont think you can make the soldier anything less then it was in ME3 so i really hope theres a drastic way in which the adepts uses its abilities in ME3. (being forced) to use stasis(for EVERY class!), singularity, and warp as my only essential abilites is very limiting. not to say that being a character that can wield thousands of newtons of force can only push someone around. the adept is the "twerp" of the galaxy.

[Nathan Redgrave]

I always found this a bit odd. Biotic barriers are really the only kind of protection that should have an effect on biotics; shields are meant to protect against gunfire, so why can't I use a biotic lift on someone? How in the hell does armor protect the enemy from a biotic power? I suddenly can't use telekinesis because the enemy has armored plating on that's designed to protect against physical attacks? What?

[lazuli]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I always found this a bit odd. Biotic barriers are really the only kind of protection that should have an effect on biotics; shields are meant to protect against gunfire, so why can't I use a biotic lift on someone? How in the hell does armor protect the enemy from a biotic power? I suddenly can't use telekinesis because the enemy has armored plating on that's designed to protect against physical attacks? What?

There were armor mods that dampened the effect somehow in ME1.  I don't pretend to understand the science behind it, and I don't particularly care.  I'm fine with enemy protections as they are, but I'm also open to change.

[Dave666]

lazuli wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I always found this a bit odd. Biotic barriers are really the only kind of protection that should have an effect on biotics; shields are meant to protect against gunfire, so why can't I use a biotic lift on someone? How in the hell does armor protect the enemy from a biotic power? I suddenly can't use telekinesis because the enemy has armored plating on that's designed to protect against physical attacks? What?

There were armor mods that dampened the effect somehow in ME1.  I don't pretend to understand the science behind it, and I don't particularly care.  I'm fine with enemy protections as they are, but I'm also open to change.

I remember the mods you're talking about.  All they did was protect you somewhat from kinetic damage.  Basically the idea was to motorize your suit's joints and counteract a biotics Throw.  They couldn't do anything to stop the wearer from being lifted off the ground though.  Just out of curiosity Lazuli, which class do you play the most often?

[The Spamming Troll]

i didnt like the big jump in switching from veteran to hardcore, in terms of gameplay enemy protections caused. would anyone be opposed to protections being on every level except casual, and even more so on insanity?

[Aumata]

There isn't any lore, that states that shields or protection block tech or biotics. That was always my problem with the protection system even though I am not bothered it as much as I used to be. For combative classes it just another ****ing health bar, for the casters a annoying immunity that they have to deal with. Hell playing as an Infilitrator I was at the last part; of Arrival and snipe everyone but the YMIR before they reach me. Enabling me the fastest time I gotten so far, my adept was the slowest, thanks to singularity sucking balls. i figure that it would be the same as ME1 combative classes can kill the fastest, the caster can CC and disrupt the enemy making them null and void. This with enemies being able to do the same, along with them having other crap makes it hard as hell.

Dave666 said it best, no one wants to play as a gimped soldier, and that what the caster classes were reduced too. People says to bring your teammates to do the shield busting but then you can bring teammates to do the same as a combative class. But enough of biotics, I miss my other tech skills. Disrupting guns, poison, and damping powers. Protection system actually removed a lot of gameplay elements in the first one. Ammo mods being able to bypass shields. Biotics using lift, warp, barrier, and I think one used throw and knocking me on my ass. Tech enemies being able to disrupt, damper, knock out my shields. Force of a weapon plowing people down. Enemies could do a lot in Mass Effect 1, and I would like to see it in Mass Effect 3.

Not really much of good synergy with weapons with caster classes. I have to play gimped soldier to get to use them, unless I am a engineer,then the drone works. I hope they return it more to ME1 style, also they did removed regenerating shields didn't they. Was also annoying to encounter Krogans with out shields in stead they have armor. A stupid system to that is probably the biggest offender of destroying lore, more so than the half-assed attempt thermal clips. Thermal clip gotten a codex, not the protection system.

The biggest irony about this whole thing is that I still play caster better than when I play most of the combative class. Though Infiltrator is the second class to beat arrival horde mode game style. The other being Vanguard class.

[Nathan Redgrave]

lazuli wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I always found this a bit odd. Biotic barriers are really the only kind of protection that should have an effect on biotics; shields are meant to protect against gunfire, so why can't I use a biotic lift on someone? How in the hell does armor protect the enemy from a biotic power? I suddenly can't use telekinesis because the enemy has armored plating on that's designed to protect against physical attacks? What?

There were armor mods that dampened the effect somehow in ME1.  I don't pretend to understand the science behind it, and I don't particularly care.  I'm fine with enemy protections as they are, but I'm also open to change.

Did they. I don't remember any of that stopping Shepard from flopping to the ground like a ragdoll whenever someone hit him with a biotic push.

I liked the kinetic barriers in the first game because they were specific in their function: they protected against gunshots. A varren could bite you or a Rachni could spit acid on you and it wouldn't even trigger your shields. In this, whichever form of protection currently rests on top of the other health bars takes all damage regardless of the source--why would a flame thrower even affect a kinetic barrier? It makes no sense. (Although, it does at least keep you alive a few moments longer when that one Pyro gets the drop on you from around a corner in Garrus's recruitment mission...)

[Bluko]

 Yeah the defensive layers kind of put a hinderance on the Biotic abilities (except Warp). The 3 Combat classes work well enough. Although now that anyone can use any weapon it should be less of a problem to tear down defenses. I think the Devs stated though that they want all players to use their weapons and not just spam powers like in ME1. I'm fine with this.

However Biotic and Tech classes also posses the strongest abilities for taking down Shields, Armor, and Barriers. So it's not like they are gimped. You just have to choose do you want to take down defenses faster or finish enemies off faster?

I dunno. Personally I would like to see all enemies have Shields again like they should. Seriously everyone is suppose to have shields. Although for LOKI Mechs and Husks it's reasonable to assume they wouldn't. What I would have done is...

Shields
Offer additional protection, and recharge after a period of time. They do not stop Biotics.

Armor
Offers additional protection and negates the effects of most Biotics. (Throw, Pull, and Singularity)

Barriers
Offers additional protection, regenerate, and negates the effects of all Biotics.

Basically:
Biotics > Shields
Tech > Armor
Combat > Barriers

[lazuli]

Dave666 wrote...
Just out of curiosity Lazuli, which class do you play the most often?

I play all of the classes, though Vanguards and Infiltrators are tied for most complete playthroughs.  I have a few Insanity Adept runs under my belt, though, if that's what you're driving at.

[Dave666]

lazuli wrote...

Dave666 wrote...
Just out of curiosity Lazuli, which class do you play the most often?

I play all of the classes, though Vanguards and Infiltrators are tied for most complete playthroughs.  I have a few Insanity Adept runs under my belt, though, if that's what you're driving at.

I'll admit that it partly was.  I had a feeling that you'd be more of an exception to the rule.  I've been in a few of these discussions about enemy protections and often there'll be quite a few who say 'they're fine as they are, leave them alone', when questioned about which classes they use its invariably one of the three combat classes.  Of course they think protections are fine, they never even bloody feel them.
 
To give you credit where its due, you have said that you're open to new ideas.

Modifié par Dave666, 24 mai 2011 - 02:43 .

[CajNatalie]

I'm strongly against the protections because it's a load of crap that makes no damn sense whatsoever.
Plus it causes severe disparity in the effects of raising difficulty for each class.

In Insanity I found that I had almost 0% value for squadmates with biotic powers. My Vanguard's biotics were purely there for staggering. Improved Shockwave is perhaps the only biotic attack that seems like it's designed well with staggering, so at least my Shep didn't feel as nerfed as my Adept would if I'd taken him on Insanity (he'd only have Level 1 Shockwave).

Anyway, you can highlight just how wrong this system is when you use Heavy Throw on an Insanity Varren.
Pretty much nothing happens.
It's... a varren... a god... damn... varren...
And yet you can't even topple it over.
What the hell.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 24 mai 2011 - 02:55 .

[Bluefuse]

I was highly annoyed that shields, barriers, and armor stopped biotic powers. That almost completely neglected the usefulness of being a biotic because you were still shooting most of the time.

[Bluefuse]

Modifié par Bluefuse, 24 mai 2011 - 03:05 .