278 réponses à ce sujet

[CajNatalie]

You can't really defend the Widow's ability to cut down all defenses in a single shot in comparison to a biotic attacks ability to do nothing but staggerfail someone with negligible damage, people.

Just like I'd never think of defending the Claymore on Insanity against enemies it can't one-shot. It's just a terrible argument.

I refuse to take the Claymore anyway... I prefer playing as a balanced biotic soldier than a gun-centric chargemaniac. I did what I could to see how I could use Shockwave and Pull under the circumstances of ME2s protection system. It took a while but I figured some things out by the time I beat Hardcore ready for Insanity... it's just unfortunate that there's not that same level of thought required to master the versatility of all classes.

Edit: Damn, a lot of new posts appeared while I was catching up, and posting this.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 28 mai 2011 - 05:09 .

[Dave666]

@Tony, I've never tried to claim that Adepts are useless on Insanity, I've always simply said that as far as protections go they feel them more than almost all of the other classes.

Caj kinda summed up my feelings on it with this:

CajNatalie wrote...

I've said in an earlier post... ultimately what you always need to do is kill everything before you.

If the Infiltrator can pick someone and make them dead or on the brink of being dead without squadmate assistance just like that, while the Adept is busy having to be a team player to get someone CC'd to set them up to then die more easily... there's a problem.

They are comparable.

The problem with your example is that you have completely forgotten about Protections (the whole point of this thread).  Add the times for stripping those into your figures, including casting Area Overload and missing two enemies at the back (which always bloody happens to me for some reason) then add in the time involved for switching weapons to strip Shields with SMG's, Armour with Pistols then back to SMG's for that guy with a Shield that you missed.  

Honestly in ME:2 I felt like I was spending more time stripping the damned defences than I was killing enemies. Remember that the whole point of Biotics is to briefly control enemies before killing them.  By making an Adept have to strip protections first before they can then do that seems a bit counter productive.  I could live with it though if other classes had comparable hinderances to their class of choices playstyle.

Modifié par Dave666, 28 mai 2011 - 05:15 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

tonnactus wrote:

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You claimed Soldier are great at CC;

You also completly refuse to realize that the protection system completly gimp most squadmates with biotics even more then shepardt.Samara,the "biotic godess",could do absolutly nothing when a krogan or varren with "protections" charge her. And not forget that they have double cooldowns at least compared with shepardt to gimp them even further.

yeah, it bothers me a lot when i come to think about supposedly powerful biotics such as Samara, Jack

[tonnactus]

Another thing,an annoying one is that on the collector ship,soldiers,infiltrators and vanguards get the option to really improve the core of their class.While adepts and engineers get: A bonus weapon.

Not even the option to reduce cooldowns even further or increase the duration of powers with a unique bioamp/omnitool.

[Bozorgmehr]

CajNatalie wrote...

Engineer + Claymore requires Hax. That video is flawed as an example.

Claymore is not a better or a more effective shotgun compared to the others; you can do the exact same thing with any shotgun or any other weapon for that matter. You can kill even faster using the Mattock. I removed all other weapons, my Engineer only has the Claymore - no HW, HP and SMG - to compensate. Claymore sniping FTW

I used the Claymore because it's my favorite ME2 weapon. I also said in previous posts that I consider weapon restrictions to be at the root of the slight imbalance between classes. It looks like BW noticed this too; there will be no restrictions on weapons in ME3 (except how many weapons one may carry around).

Anyway, your argument about how a heavy pull/throw can't be balanced by longer cooldowns seems to make sense... I can see how it may not be so simple to balance things afterall. Hopefully BW will figure something out that works better the way things are right now... alternatively... maybe with the way ME3 will work combat-wise, I'm open to surprises (fixes that wouldn't work in ME2, but somehow fit perfectly in ME3, are possible?).

Balance is a very vulnerable thing; it's easy to take one power out of the system to adjust its effects - putting it back into the puzzle is not so easy. ME2's system is well crafted as it is now; nowhere near perfection, but strong enough to build upon. I'm sure ME3 will have a surprise or two - can't wait for some E3 gameplay footage

CajNatalie wrote...

You can't really defend the Widow's ability to cut down all defenses in a single shot in comparison to a biotic attacks ability to do nothing but staggerfail someone with negligible damage, people.

Weapons are single target only; powers (can) have an AoE - you can take out up to 4 enemies in less than a second using powers; you can't do this with weapons.

I refuse to take the Claymore anyway... I prefer playing as a balanced biotic soldier than a gun-centric chargemaniac. I did what I could to see how I could use Shockwave and Pull under the circumstances of ME2s protection system. It took a while but I figured some things out by the time.

I think this is the beauty of the ME2 protection system.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Dave666 wrote...

@Tony, I've never tried to claim that Adepts are useless on Insanity, I've always simply said that as far as protections go they feel them more than almost all of the other classes.

Caj kinda summed up my feelings on it with this:

CajNatalie wrote...

I've said in an earlier post... ultimately what you always need to do is kill everything before you.

If the Infiltrator can pick someone and make them dead or on the brink of being dead without squadmate assistance just like that, while the Adept is busy having to be a team player to get someone CC'd to set them up to then die more easily... there's a problem.

They are comparable.

OSOK or being a team player is a play style preference, Dave. You may not like being a team player, so being a Widow Infiltrator or a Claymore Vanguard may be right for you.

Adepts, Engineers, and Sentinels can't OSOK because they don't have access to the Widow and the Claymore. Boz's Krogan Engineering video perfectly demonstrates how powerful having those weapons can be. The problem isn't protections or powers, the problem is in the weapon selection, something ME3 seems to going to fix.

The problem with your example is that you have completely forgotten about Protections (the whole point of this thread).  Add the times for stripping those into your figures, including casting Area Overload and missing two enemies at the back (which always bloody happens to me for some reason) then add in the time involved for switching weapons to strip Shields with SMG's, Armour with Pistols then back to SMG's for that guy with a Shield that you missed.  

Like I've mentioned in that post, it's simplified. You can miss with the Widow, enemies can hide while you're cloaked. Anything can happen. But the two different strategy (or ways of thinking) is accurate.

Honestly in ME:2 I felt like I was spending more time stripping the damned defences than I was killing enemies. Remember that the whole point of Biotics is to briefly control enemies before killing them.  By making an Adept have to strip protections first before they can then do that seems a bit counter productive.  I could live with it though if other classes had comparable hinderances to their class of choices playstyle.

Soldiers, Vanguard, Engineers, Infiltrators, Sentinels all deal with defenses in the exact same way as the Adept: using your own powers, using squadmate powers, and using guns that are not OSOK. Ammo powers don't take effect until defenses are stripped, that's no different than Adepts' biotics. Ammo powers are also less reliable, you have to 'wait and see' if the CC properties activate. That's hardcore/insanity.

And I'm with Boz on this one: the caster classes not having enough weapon options until after the DCV is the key thing that makes Adepts harder. There are problems with biotics that I have complained about, but overall they are not as 'useless' or 'gimped' as people make it out to be. Except for glitches, I think Adepts and Engineers are very much balanced on the insanity difficulty, and protections are not the problem.

[Bozorgmehr]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Tell me what effectiveness you are talking about. If it's just fun to watch, then i dont buy it. I told you it is AWKWARD because you tried to demonstrate the usefulness of shockwave when most enemies around you were disabled or didn't shoot at you. At that time, it doesnt matter what your method is. You could use area concussive shot on rag-dolled enemies and enemies would fly higher, or you could slam to make sure enemies bounce harder.

I used SW on targets who couldn't be targeted with any other power; I think it's odd to say powers that kill enemies are awkward or not useful. Sure I could have used Warp also to kill those ragdolled enemies. Warp has the same CD; it kills ragdolled enemies like SW did in the video; does this make Warp and awkward power too? I could have shot those enemies also, are weapons awkward or not very useful also?

No, i found it pretty useful for my engineer on collector missions without the use of biotics. Just use SMG, and they will fire-dance, which means that you can kill them a lot quicker and suffer less attacks.

Biotics will have them die quickly and you suffer less attacks; biotic powers are also instant, more reliable, last longer and can double weapon damage (like in ARush and Cloak) > they are a lot more useful than ammo powers.

Singularity doesn't become redundant. If pull only penetrates one layer of defense, that means pull cannot do anything to blue sun commander, habinger while singularity still be able to lock them.

Which is exactly how things work on Normal; Singularity is only useful against the occasional BS Commander, Scion, or Harbinger you'll face. Play on Normal if you want to use Pull on >90% of the enemies. It's bad enough the signature power of the Adept has that limited use on the default (Normal) settings; it does become a very potent power on Insanity, taking that away almost kills the class. A Vanguard with Pull has ME2 Adept CC ability + Charge + Claymore; it only widens the gap between the other classes.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

4 enemies,frozen for 7 seconds is definetly decent.More crowd control isnt needed.
You also completly refuse to realize that the protection system completly gimp most squadmates with biotics even more then shepardt.Samara,the "biotic godess",could do absolutly nothing when a krogan or varren with "protections" charge her. And not forget that they have double cooldowns at least compared with shepardt to gimp them even further.

A soldier shepardt is better at crowd control then all biotic squadmates.

:lol:

Krogan always have armor - including Casual; the only CC abilities that will stop or distract an armored Krogan are Stasis, Singularity and Drones. Soldier can do nothing but shoot Krogan (like everyone else, including squadies); no CC effect whatsoever using ammo. Soldiers can use CS to stagger armored Krogan for a brief moment; Samara (Jack and Morinth) can also stagger an armored Krogan using Pull or Throw which is on a <5 s CD instead of the Soldier's CS 6 seconds CD; Samara can also use Reave to strip armor.

Soldiers are about raw firepower, that's all they have - ammo powers have minor CC effects, but they're not of much use considering the Soldier's weapon loadout (Widow, GPS, Claymore, Evi, Mantis, Mattock etc).

A HP-only Adept Shepard deals more weapon damage than all the combat squadmates - so?

First,its a decision of the player to build a character in this way.An option.

Not really, BW designs a game you can play, if you don't like it - then don't buy it (or mod). You can have all you want playing on Normal or remove protection with a couple mouse clicks to enjoy your own (horribly broken) system.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
 Soldier can do nothing but shoot Krogan (like everyone else, including squadies); no CC effect whatsoever using ammo.

Activate cyro ammo,activate adrenaline rush,1-2 seconds after--->Krogan is lying frozen on the ground,couldnt do anything.

That an adept shepardt has better weapon damage that combat experts is completly retarded anyway.

In a roleplaying game,with squad/party,everyone had to has a role in which they excel.

Why taking someone like zaeed when shepardt himself is better at dealing weapon damage no matter the class?

Its pointless.

Modifié par tonnactus, 28 mai 2011 - 06:01 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

I used SW on targets who couldn't be targeted with any other power; I think it's odd to say powers that kill enemies are awkward or not useful. Sure I could have used Warp also to kill those ragdolled enemies. Warp has the same CD; it kills ragdolled enemies like SW did in the video; does this make Warp and awkward power too? I could have shot those enemies also, are weapons awkward or not very useful also?

You misunderstand me, Wrap already has other uses such as defense-stripping or wrap explosion - very effective, all of us know that Wrap is a key power. If wrap cannot do these things, it is just as bad as shockwave.
Weapons already have their use of shooting enemies to death, and the main element contributed to combat, what else you can do when your powers is in global cooldown except shooting
But what about shockwave? it has its use only when enemy is down to health. But pull and throw supercede it in atmost every situation because of their fast animation and much better cooldown EXCEPT when target is behind cover but even in this case you could arc throw or pull.
So:
(1) when enemy is down to health,use shockwave?, no no, throw or pull is better
(2) when enemy is rag-dolled, shockwave is just one of many options you could use (wrap explosion, shooting, slam, concussiveshot, throw field)
Boz, when use try to prove the usefullness of shockwave when there are obviously still many alternatives, i feel it is AWKWARD. In your vid, you exclusively used (2)

Boz wrote
Biotics will have them die quickly and you suffer less attacks; biotic powers are also instant, more reliable, last longer and can double weapon damage (like in ARush and Cloak) > they are a lot more useful than ammo powers.

Because i played engineer, and i just tried to bring tech members only.

Boz wrote:
Which is exactly how things work on Normal; Singularity is only useful against the occasional BS Commander, Scion, or Harbinger you'll face. Play on Normal if you want to use Pull on >90% of the enemies. It's bad enough the signature power of the Adept has that limited use on the default (Normal) settings; it does become a very potent power on Insanity, taking that away almost kills the class. A Vanguard with Pull has ME2 Adept CC ability + Charge + Claymore; it only widens the gap between the other classes.

Because with the current cooldown of pull (cooldown reduction and cooldown upgrade considered), you can have 2 or 3 pulls once enemies's defense is down regardless of difficulty. As has been suggested in my previous post, if you can make sure that PULL'S DURATION IS EQUAL TO PULL'S COOLDOWN, then you can have a maximum of one pull at a time. And disabling just one enemy (full protection) while his/her friends still are shooting at you, i cant say that it's overpowered.

Modifié par ComputerEnthusiast, 28 mai 2011 - 06:50 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

@Boz: dont you feel it's ironic when Samara and Jack are illustrated as powerful biotics but in fact they could't disable just ONE enemy (full protection) themself on Insanity??????

[tonnactus]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

@Boz: dont you feel it's ironic when Samara and Jack are illustrated as powerful biotics but in fact they could't disable just ONE enemy (full protection) themself on Insanity??????

The least thing they could have done would be to give every biotic one power that works like singularity.For jack as an example,a special version of shockwave that knock down enemies with defenses on.

[The Spamming Troll]

[quote]Tony Gunslinger wrote...

[quote]The Spamming Troll wrote...
soldiers have ammo powers for every defensive type,
[/quote]

They have nothing against barriers except concussive shot.

[quote]
and also have the frickin revenant. thats a bit better then relying on (creating your own!)warp bombs and the locust.
[/quote]

- The Revenant is better at killing one enemy and damaging someone else nearby at the cost 5 seconds of cooldown.

- The locust and warp bomb can almost kill one enemy and knock down everything in 5-7 meters at the cost of 3.7 seconds of cooldown.

And also, what was that you said about killing speed?

[quote]The Spamming Troll Wrote...

wrong. FUN is the core thing that people are complaining about with classes. killing speed means nothing to me if im not playing that class to its fullest potential, which is its funnest. the complaints about the soldier killing faster then the adept are minumal. [/quote]

I'm not even sure if you know what you're saying anymore.


[quote]ive never seen a vanguard player concerned about protections. a vanguard has no concerns for protections unless it stops playing as a vanguard. these are mainly adept players in here, wanting more out of their adepts.[/quote]

Vanguards put themselves in harms way to get blank range damage bonus. I think that risk is a fair trade off.

[quote]there is a huge difference between classes and protections and it has everything to do with how we can deal with those protections!!! thats the exact point of this topic. to deny that this doesnt exist in ME2 is simply wrong.[/quote]
It has everything to do with how you, the player, deal with protections. Not the classes or the powers.


[/quote]

isnt concussive shot "great" against barriers?

the revenant alone is capable of doing alot of things. the adept needs the combination of the right variables in the right situation in order to do what the revenant can ALWAYS do.

i dont see what your trying to relate to with killing speed. i dont care much about it one way or the other. atleast thats not what IM here argueing for.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...

[quote]CajNatalie wrote...

Engineer + Claymore requires Hax. That video is flawed as an example.[/quote]

Claymore
is not a better or a more effective shotgun compared to the others; you
can do the exact same thing with any shotgun or any other weapon for
that matter. You can kill even faster using the Mattock. I removed all
other weapons, my Engineer only has the Claymore - no HW, HP and SMG -
to compensate. Claymore sniping FTW

I used the Claymore
because it's my favorite ME2 weapon. I also said in previous posts that I
consider weapon restrictions to be at the root of the slight imbalance
between classes. It looks like BW noticed this too; there will be no
restrictions on weapons in ME3 (except how many weapons one may carry
around).

[quote]
Anyway, your argument about how a heavy
pull/throw can't be balanced by longer cooldowns seems to make sense...
I can see how it may not be so simple to balance things afterall.
Hopefully BW will figure something out that works better the way things
are right now... alternatively... maybe with the way ME3 will work
combat-wise, I'm open to surprises (fixes that wouldn't work in ME2, but
somehow fit perfectly in ME3, are possible?).[/quote]

Balance is
a very vulnerable thing; it's easy to take one power out of the system
to adjust its effects - putting it back into the puzzle is not so easy.
ME2's system is well crafted as it is now; nowhere near perfection, but
strong enough to build upon. I'm sure ME3 will have a surprise or two -
can't wait for some E3 gameplay footage

[quote]CajNatalie wrote...

You
can't really defend the Widow's ability to cut down all defenses in a
single shot in comparison to a biotic attacks ability to do nothing but
staggerfail someone with negligible damage, people.[/quote]

Weapons
are single target only; powers (can) have an AoE - you can take out up
to 4 enemies in less than a second using powers; you can't do this with
weapons.

[quote]
I refuse to take the Claymore anyway... I
prefer playing as a balanced biotic soldier than a gun-centric
chargemaniac. I did what I could to see how I could use Shockwave and
Pull under the circumstances of ME2s protection system. It took a while
but I figured some things out by the time.[/quote]

I think this is the beauty of the ME2 protection system.
[/quote]

the claymore isnt better then the other shotguns??? i understand the GPS (and the mattock) being OP, because they are bought DLC, but the claymore isnt better then the katana? ill have to skip out on claymore training and just use the katana! thanks for the acurate information!

yu ca only take out groups of enemies as an adept in alomst perfect senarios. weapons can take out enemies in almost every situation. BIG difference.

im actually surprised you want ME3 to have weapon trading. im almost stunned you want the variety.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 28 mai 2011 - 07:28 .

[CajNatalie]

Since there's been some mention of the issues of shockwave, I'm going to bring up how I used it.

Improved Shockwave is able to smash an entire battlefield... yes, sometimes every single enemy at once... out of cover, and stop everyone shooting at you for a crucial moment.

When behind tall cover...
Did not 'stick' to the cover. I sidestepped and quickly hurled the shockwave, while stepping back behind cover. I'm exposed far less than sticking to cover and casting that way would have done, and usually take very little damage to my shields.
Then I let me and my squadmates go all out. I direct squad powers where they need to be and I quickly pick off one or two enemies free from resistance... due to the squad powers I can end up able to continue picking more enemies off, depending on the powers.

Behind low cover, its usefulness is unfortunately significantly lower as I tend to get my shields smashed, but I get a small time during which I can do what I want without fear of taking health damage. Again, I tend to co-ordinate with squadmates using shockwaves from low cover to make the payoff is as good as possible.

Of course, just because I can prove utility, doesn't disprove the disparity in utilising class abilities. I did require my squadmates to get significant results. I can't say the same thing about playing as a Soldier, particularly.

However, Shockwave is a good enough power that at least in some situations it's not always an issue to miss out on squadmate assistance...
In the Object Rho battle (I feel it important to mention since Shep is solo), when a pyro showed up, I could hurl a shockwave, take aim, shut down his shields and pop his tank. A moment later... BOOM. Much easier than with anything else as it stops most if not all mooks shooting at me so I can safely take the shots I need.

Shockwave is a great power that maintains usefulness even when staggerfailing enemies. Very helpful for a Vanguard who wants to play to their biotic talents as full as possible, or an Adept looking for a different flavor of biotics.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 28 mai 2011 - 07:45 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

CajNatalie wrote...

Since there's been some mention of the issues of shockwave, I'm going to bring up how I used it.

Improved Shockwave is able to smash an entire battlefield... yes, sometimes every single enemy at once... out of cover, and stop everyone shooting at you for a crucial moment.

When behind tall cover...
Did not 'stick' to the cover. I sidestepped and quickly hurled the shockwave, while stepping back behind cover. I'm exposed far less than sticking to cover and casting that way would have done, and usually take very little damage to my shields.
Then I let me and my squadmates go all out. I direct squad powers where they need to be and I quickly pick off one or two enemies free from resistance... due to the squad powers I can end up able to continue picking more enemies off, depending on the powers.

Behind low cover, its usefulness is unfortunately significantly lower as I tend to get my shields smashed, but I get a small time during which I can do what I want without fear of taking health damage. Again, I tend to co-ordinate with squadmates using shockwaves from low cover to make the payoff is as good as possible.

Of course, just because I can prove utility, doesn't disprove the disparity in utilising class abilities. I did require my squadmates to get significant results. I can't say the same thing about playing as a Soldier, particularly.

However, Shockwave is a good enough power that at least in some situations it's not always an issue to miss out on squadmate assistance...
In the Object Rho battle (I feel it important to mention since Shep is solo), when a pyro showed up, I could hurl a shockwave, take aim, shut down his shields and pop his tank. A moment later... BOOM. Much easier than with anything else as it stops most if not all mooks shooting at me so I can safely take the shots I need.

Shockwave is a great power that maintains usefulness even when staggerfailing enemies. Very helpful for a Vanguard who wants to play to their biotic talents as full as possible, or an Adept looking for a different flavor of biotics.

Is shockwave's main function described in game is staggering??? If you insist on proving the usefullness of shockwave, i have nothing to say.

[CajNatalie]

I'm demonstrating how it maintains usefulness even against protected enemies.

I don't say the system that results in shockwave being so different at higher difficulties isn't flawed, because it damn well is. But that doesn't stop shockwave from finding a way to still be good.

I was defending shockwave as a useful power, not the protection system.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 28 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Let's talk about Boz's pull/throw/pull+throw in details.
First, i must admit that pull/throw is very usefull if you follow aggressive style. Pull/Throw cant take enemy out of fight for a reasonable amount of time with very short cooldown which is very important when pursuing this style since the less enemies fighting at you, the more chance you can survive. But i am pretty sure that many people cannot follow this style since it's very risky (easy to die). Vanguard less suffers from this since you dont have to MANAGE 8 differents hot keys for powers and still control the mouse.

So using more than one power all day long is a bad thing? It's what makes the Adept so much fun to me; you have options and using powers at the wrong moment or on the wrong enemy has consequences. Using powers like ARush, Cloak and Tech Armor is a no-brainer, they're buffs only and have no effect on the enemy. I don't like classes that rely on one power only - it's the opposite of playing a rpg-ish power/abilities - shooter hybrid imo.

No, is is very fun to do that. But with the current game mechanics, managing 8 different hot keys is really a trouble for many people (me included), not to mention Xbox user has fewer keys to cast power in real time. In some of your vids, you tried to go berserk as much as possible, which means you must react very fast and managing 8 different hot keys is a lot more trouble if you go berserk like that, not to mention the fact that you didnt have to worry about being flanked. I bet you cant go berserk (no cover) in Object Rho mission or LOTSB mission (defending the hatch) without a lof of trial and error and some luck.

[Meshakhad2]

Here's what I think:

Defenses (shields, barriers, armor) should not make you immune to biotic powers. If you hit a bunch of guys with, say, Shockwave, the Vanguard with a barrier will go flying like the rest of them. However, he has a good chance of getting back up while his squadmates are dealing with a rather bad case of the dead, as his barrier will cushion him.

The exception is ledges. Here, reality kicks in. There is no good reason a biotic shouldn't be able to deal with tough enemies by hurling them off of high ledges and letting Sir Isaac Newton have his way with them. Rather than fight this, BioWare should take it into account. Have enemies avoid getting too close to ledges when facing biotics, forcing players to use clever maneuvering and use of various powers to get enemies into a position where a well-placed Throw will send them to their deaths. Keep careful track of what areas can be vulnerable to this. And include plenty of larger enemies that are harder to dispatch this way, if not impossible. 15-foot mechs and krogan husks should do just fine.

[Nezzer]

I did a playthrough as an adept with the defenses not immune to powers, and I can say it makes the game a loooot easier. Using pull on heavy mech is beautiful xD

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

That an adept shepardt has better weapon damage that combat experts is completly retarded anyway.

In a roleplaying game,with squad/party,everyone had to has a role in which they excel.

Why taking someone like zaeed when shepardt himself is better at dealing weapon damage no matter the class?

Its pointless.

If you prefer games in which you can sit back an have your squad kill all enemies for you - sure.

Squadmates are there to help, not to complete the game for you.

Is it really that hard to understand games are ... well ... games; they're meant to be played, not enjoyed passively (like a movie). Making squadmates or powers too powerful ruins the game - not to mention that the option to bring biotic squadmates who are like a biotic Shep totally destroys the purpose of a class system.

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

@Boz: dont you feel it's ironic when Samara and Jack are illustrated as powerful biotics but in fact they could't disable just ONE enemy (full protection) themself on Insanity??????

No I don't; first Samara and Jack can take out >90% of all enemies with their biotics. ME2 is designed around Normal - not Insanity - raising difficulty is an entire different matter. The combat specialists (squadies) cannot take out one enemy with their weapons on Insanity either.

tonnactus wrote...

The least thing they could have done would be to give every biotic one power that works like singularity.For jack as an example,a special version of shockwave that knock down enemies with defenses on.

Yeah, that would be great - lets make Jack's Shockwave more powerful than anything Adept Shep can do - that would really improve gameplay.

[DieBySword]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldier:
has to switch weapons (only a couple weapons can be used to one-shot-freeze enemies); activate ARush (duration + cooldown = ~5 seconds before power become available again); aim and shoot every enemy (~1 second per enemy); switch weapons again; shoot to kill every enemy one at a time.

Adept: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

And this example comes from someone who's saying the Adept is underpowered compared to Soldiers.

What
has a bug which affects over a dozen powers has to do with reliability?
It's like saying Sentinels are unreliable because when you played one,
you experienced a CTD.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

DieBySword wrote...
Your fogeting that
the adept has to strip the protections off those 5 enemies, probably use
a member ability and have those 5 mooks real close to launch the pull
field. Its not really that sweet as you tell it to be [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

I
think you should read the original post, coz my reply about the video
wasn't about enemies with defenses, it was about the difference between a
Soldier's CC and the Adept's after defenses are down. The Soldier in
the vid had to strip defenses first before switching to the Carnifex to
CC a couple enemies.

Missed this one so why must the soldier switch weapons if hes taking on health only mock ? If they are only health bared and he has an ammo power he can kill them with AR rush and an AR quicker than your adept+hidden tech team.

Lets take on this example:

I take a biotic,tech with me

Tech: dissables shield
Biotic: uses Pull Field;
Me: Shot them with AR rush or Conclusive shot and they`re dead before the biotic cooldown comes down.

Where you take a tech and someone

Tech: dissables shield
You: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

Really Soldier does it quicker that your team and if he dosnt do a thing then my team killes them in the same time your team did. What changes my soldier char didnt have too do a thing while you adept char had to do all the thing my biotic did.

Now lets take the actual example it should be only soldier vs adept no team:

My soldier AR rushes and kills protected enemies easily with guns + ammo power and dosnt get shot at while your adept can only warp enemies while protected and needs to use less damaging and quick shooting guns with less preciosion and bigger chance of geting killed while out of cover. If you use warp bombs your just making it take more time and more acuracy loose because the mooks get throws further away while your guns arent that precise at bigger distances. And thats not even taking into consideration the power of an inflitrator OSHK protected enemies while cloaked and not being seen

Modifié par DieBySword, 29 mai 2011 - 01:42 .

[JayhartRIC]

DieBySword wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldier:
has to switch weapons (only a couple weapons can be used to one-shot-freeze enemies); activate ARush (duration + cooldown = ~5 seconds before power become available again); aim and shoot every enemy (~1 second per enemy); switch weapons again; shoot to kill every enemy one at a time.

Adept: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

And this example comes from someone who's saying the Adept is underpowered compared to Soldiers.

What
has a bug which affects over a dozen powers has to do with reliability?
It's like saying Sentinels are unreliable because when you played one,
you experienced a CTD.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

DieBySword wrote...
Your fogeting that
the adept has to strip the protections off those 5 enemies, probably use
a member ability and have those 5 mooks real close to launch the pull
field. Its not really that sweet as you tell it to be [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

I
think you should read the original post, coz my reply about the video
wasn't about enemies with defenses, it was about the difference between a
Soldier's CC and the Adept's after defenses are down. The Soldier in
the vid had to strip defenses first before switching to the Carnifex to
CC a couple enemies.

Missed this one so why must the soldier switch weapons if hes taking on health only mock ? If they are only health bared and he has an ammo power he can kill them with AR rush and an AR quicker than your adept+hidden tech team.

Lets take on this example:

I take a biotic,tech with me

Tech: dissables shield
Biotic: uses Pull Field;
Me: Shot them with AR rush or Conclusive shot and they`re dead before the biotic cooldown comes down.

Where you take a tech and someone

Tech: dissables shield
You: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

Really Soldier does it quicker that your team and if he dosnt do a thing then my team killes them in the same time your team did. What changes my soldier char didnt have too do a thing while you adept char had to do all the thing my biotic did.

Now lets take the actual example it should be only soldier vs adept no team:

My soldier AR rushes and kills protected enemies easily with guns + ammo power and dosnt get shot at while your adept can only warp enemies while protected and needs to use less damaging and quick shooting guns with less preciosion and bigger chance of geting killed while out of cover. If you use warp bombs your just making it take more time and more acuracy loose because the mooks get throws further away while your guns arent that precise at bigger distances. And thats not even taking into consideration the power of an inflitrator OSHK protected enemies while cloaked and not being seen

So you agree Soldier is OP?  I've been saying this since the beginning.  As far as Infiltrator goes, I've never been able to get Infiltator to work well.  You OSHK one enemy, then you have a 6 second cooldown.  Plus most of the time the enemies hide in cover and I can't get a shot.  If I'm close to the enemies, cloaking actaully gets them to flank me which they wouldn't try to do if I was right there.

[DieBySword]

@JayhartRIC Im not saying Soldiers are OP neither than biotics are Gimped, lets just say I think the classes need more balance nothing more.

But really this thread shouldnt be about classes being OP or biotic gimped but about ideas how to get existing gameplay mechanic (protection) to be even better.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

@Boz: dont you feel it's ironic when Samara and Jack are illustrated as powerful biotics but in fact they could't disable just ONE enemy (full protection) themself on Insanity??????

No I don't; first Samara and Jack can take out >90% of all enemies with their biotics. ME2 is designed around Normal - not Insanity - raising difficulty is an entire different matter. The combat specialists (squadies) cannot take out one enemy with their weapons on Insanity either.

i understand you consider samara to be using biotics on protections, because she can use reave and thats "effective on protections," but then how come reave "works on protections?" why isnt reave crippled by sheilds causing something similar to making heavy throw into a half second stagger. if armor can be designed to stop biotics, wouldnt biotics be able to adept to those designs? riddle me THAT my friend!

raising the difficultiy is indirectly related to enemy protections, which is what we are discussing. a related question: should protections be on every difficulty setting if abilities are more usefull in ME3?

can grunt or legon OSOK with the claymore/widow? but the fact that combat classes have the potential to deal OSOK without powers is only another hit on classes that dont have that potential. if powers are on an even level, then why arent weapons? insanity should let caster classes dual wield heavy weapons to make up for lack of potency with abilities......maybe.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 29 mai 2011 - 06:34 .

[Dave666]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

@Boz: dont you feel it's ironic when Samara and Jack are illustrated as powerful biotics but in fact they could't disable just ONE enemy (full protection) themself on Insanity??????

No I don't; first Samara and Jack can take out >90% of all enemies with their biotics. ME2 is designed around Normal - not Insanity - raising difficulty is an entire different matter. The combat specialists (squadies) cannot take out one enemy with their weapons on Insanity either.

i understand you consider samara to be using biotics on protections, because she can use reave and thats "effective on protections," but then how come reave "works on protections?" why isnt reave crippled by sheilds causing something similar to making heavy throw into a half second stagger. if armor can be designed to stop biotics, wouldnt biotics be able to adept to those designs? riddle me THAT my friend!

raising the difficultiy is indirectly related to enemy protections, which is what we are discussing. a related question: should protections be on every difficulty setting if abilities are more usefull in ME3?

can grunt or legon OSOK with the claymore/widow? but the fact that combat classes have the potential to deal OSOK without powers is only another hit on classes that dont have that potential. if powers are on an even level, then why arent weapons? insanity should let caster classes dual wield heavy weapons to make up for lack of potency with abilities......maybe.

Now you're just being silly TST.