278 réponses à ce sujet

[RideUrLightning]

The protections took away any strategy that the game had and made most biotic powers useless. Not much else to say. Once you got rid of an enemy's armor, it was much more logical to just put a couple bullets in, rather than complicate the situation by using a power. This needs to be addressed in ME3.

[Bluefuse]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i didnt like the big jump in switching from veteran to hardcore, in terms of gameplay enemy protections caused. would anyone be opposed to protections being on every level except casual, and even more so on insanity?

I played on Insanity every playthrough. You're telling me that you could use biotic powers over enemy shields on lower difficulties?

[Destroy Raiden_]

Da Mecca wrote...

Nice concept, but done wrong.

Shield do not make you immune to biotics.

Barriers should be the only thing that can negate biotics(Unless it's warp


Armor should resist damage not negate it.

This biotics and big guns should auto kill the shields and speaking of shield remember the geth barriers from ME where they formed a physical wall between you and the enemy will these come back in ME3? 

 

 

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 24 mai 2011 - 03:07 .

[CajNatalie]

@Bluefuse: Not all enemies have protections below Hardcore, meaning biotics are actually significantly useful.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 24 mai 2011 - 03:07 .

[Bluefuse]

CajNatalie wrote...

@Bluefuse: Not all enemies have protections below Hardcore, meaning biotics are actually significantly useful.

I play on insanity every playthrough simply because the game isn't challenging at all on lower difficulties, but it would be so much more enjoyable if I didn't have to worry about taking down shields to throw an enemy in the air so that I can focus my attention on another enemy. Having a mixture of tactics would make the combat so much more awesome. I don't always want to keep an assault rifle or sniper to blast a shield first. Ever since the firepower pack came out, I've used nothing but Geth shotgun and the Mattock rifle to take down an enemy every second. Christina Norman, I hope you are still taking feedback for combat at this point, please balance this. Only bosses or huge enemies should block powers.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 24 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[Dave666]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...

Nice concept, but done wrong.

Shield do not make you immune to biotics.

Barriers should be the only thing that can negate biotics(Unless it's warp


Armor should resist damage not negate it.

This biotics and big guns should auto kill the shields and speaking of shield remember the geth barriers from ME where they formed a physical wall between you and the enemy will these come back in ME3? 

I look at it slightly differently.

Personally I think that guns should be all but useless against Shields.  Thats what they're designed for, stopping fast moving projectiles.  You should still be able to whittle them down with guns but it should be very expensive on ammo.  Lets see how the gun-centric classes like having to bring someone with Overload along to deal with Shields.

[The Spamming Troll]

^awesome point about soldiers needing sabotage squadmate dave!

caster classes not only have enemy protections blocking most of their abilities, there also the least effective with their weapons, in terms of having less weapons, weapons that dont synergize awsomeley with the signature ability, and will never get one of the elite weapons.

caster classes see alot more roadblocks, adepts see it the worst. im really not sure how you could see any differently, and im sorotf surprised its mostly favoring a change with enemy defenses implementation. considering the defined veiwpoints everyone has in here. but considering  the easy road they took with ammo, i wouldnt be suprised, or as disapointed as ai should be, if its kept the same.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 mai 2011 - 03:56 .

[Darkstar Aurora]

The resistance system makes perfect sense when examined in context of how powers work, how certain powers involve objects with mass (tech mines), how certain powers affect mass (biotics) and how they interact with high-mass armor or mass-raising fields (i.e. barriers and shields). The reason this topic comes up so often is likely because it was not explained very well, or because the developers did not think it was going to be that incomprehensible.

ARMOR increases the mass of the subject, making it more difficult for its mass to be negated by a telekinetic (biotic mass-lowering) field like Throw and Pull. It also insulates the subject against electronic attempts to hack into its systems or exposure from extremes of temperature. In the case of artificial armor it can be constructed of high-grade high-mass materials which were compacted during their creation by mass-effect fields, or contain element zero kinetic dampening and gravity devices. All of those would prevent the target from being tossed like a ragdoll or make them resistant to many exterior effects. In the case of natural armor, it can be an evolved resistance to certain types of energy due to exposure to extreme environmental conditions.

Armor can be damaged by virtually any power, but receives the most damage from Warp and Incinerate attacks because they directly destroy its physical (or biological) material. The electrical surge of Overload, the kinetic force of Throw, and the freezing particles of Cryo Blast will damage the structure of armor as well but they will not be as effective as powers specifically designed to burn or shred physical matter.

BARRIERS create a biotic mass-raising kinetic field around the subject. Mass-lowering fields such as throw and pull cannot move the target without causing that movement to be negated by the field. It will still “damage” the barrier, and will deal more damage than a tech power. Tech mine attacks such as Incinerate, Cryo Blast, etc will still impinge upon the barrier and damage it, but the mass of their super-heated/super-cooled particles will blocked by the field provided it is strong enough.

Concussive Shot will deal fair amount of damage to a barrier either because the impact force is distributed and requires more energy to deflect, OR because the non-lethal “concussive” impact impairs an organic’s concentration (depending how it is interpreted)
Warp and Warp Ammo deal substantial damage to barriers either because the rapidly shifting mass effect fields overexert the barrier’s tenacity, or because the molecular-level disruptions cause the organic to sustain concentration-impairing pain (again, depending on how it is interpreted)

SHIELDS consist of emitter devices that create repulsive mass-raising kinetic fields in response to an attack. Outdated Codex entries aside, the exact parameters of what will or will not trigger a shield can be designated by whatever parameters are given by the user to the VI program that generates them, therefore explaining why shields (instead of the armor that generates them) represent the ME2 equivalent of Biotic/Tech resistance for most enemies. Attempts to levitate or throw a target (with a biotic mass-lowering field) can trigger the emitters into generating shield (which is a mass raising field) which would catch the target before they can be moved a significant distance. This explains the stagger effect that throw/pull/shockwave have on shields and the “damage” they inflict to its power cell. Warp deals its normal damage against Shields, but does not deal as much damage as it would against barriers or armor because an artificial shield generated by a battery can replenish or replace itself faster in terms of story/lore. Meanwhile all tech powers deal some damage to shields due to their projectile mines impacting on them.

Overload and Disruptor Ammo deal effective“damage” to shields not because the mine/ammunition can more easily penetrate the field, but because they release an electro-magnetic burst on impact which will sabotages the electrical systems that generate the shields themselves.

The resistance system is also very well balanced from a gameplay perspective. The most obvious point is that Normal difficulty IS the baseline experience for Mass Effect 2. In that scenario only the most elite enemies possess resistances of any real difficulty. Beyond that, you have
+ the triumvirate of powers that are “effective” (i.e. inflict double damage) against specific resistances (Overload, Incinerate, Warp). They only inflict normal damage against health.
+ the inherent and upgradeable shield-piercing/armor-piercing properties of weapons (up to +100% piercing damage, which does not include universal damage % bonuses)
+ multiple ammo powers that function against the three resistances, and can be given to the entire squad.

Under those aforementioned conditions enemies will have more health than resistances, or at least their health bar will take longer to bring down. The biotic/tech specialist classes (Adept, Engineer, Sentinel) have powers that enable you to freeze an enemy or negate their mass, which prevents them from fighting back while doubling your weapon damage against them, in addition to powers that are effective (i.e. double damage) against 2/3 protections.

In terms of Insanity difficulty, I would merely point out that
+ you have two other people in your away team
+ up to 12 allies by the end of the game
+ the intent of having so many specialists is that you are going to bring the people best suited for each specific mission
+ Access to advanced training bonus powers you can change almost every mission missions since you cannot access Insanity without having played through the game once, and you have a massive amount of element zero available. Shepard with 1 free point in Reave or Energy Drain on a 6 second cooldown can out-damage a squad member with Heavy Overload or Heavy Warp on a 12 second cooldown.
+ Its called INSANITY for a reason, and the intent is that you are not hiding behind cover at maximum range endlessly throwing warp fields

[Dave666]

Ideally they could get rid of the whole protection system and simply rely on the enemies AI and abilities, but since we don't live in an ideal world we're more than likely stuck with protections. Might as well make them fairer.

If Shields were highly resistant to gunfire (as they should be) but didn't stop Biotics, then an Adept could still Throw them and Lift them etc, but would still need to strip Shields if they wanted to finish them off with guns.

Armour (IMO) should block abilities like Throw, Shockwave, Pull, Cryo Blast etc. However with the right guns shouldn't be too problematic to remove. Quicker if you bring someone with Incinerate or use Warp of course. Given that the kinds of enemies likely to have Armour are YMIR's, Krogan(like) enemies then they're probably going to be quite heavily armed, so you don't want to dawdle.

Biotic Barriers should block all Biotic abilities (after all, if an enemy has a Barrier then they're a Biotic also and should be able to counter you) except warp and be quite vulnerable to gunfire, they're maintaining the Barrier with their mind and the constant strain of blocking projectile after projectile would quickly wear them down.

One thing I would add. For this to be fair and not leave the Biotic classes overpowered then a few changes would probably be necessary.

Lift should return and be vertical movement only.

Pull should change to the exact opposite of Throw.

The reason why I say that is because if Pull remains up and towards you then you could end up with an I win button by dragging enemies off ledges. If you have to combo it while getting shot at then its not so overpowered.

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Darkstar Aurora wrote:
Attempts to levitate or throw a target (with a biotic mass-lowering field) can trigger the emitters into generating shield (which is a mass raising field) which would catch the target before they can be moved a significant distance. This explains the stagger effect that throw/pull/shockwave have on shields and the “damage” they inflict to its power cell

Then can you tell me why biotics is completely nullified by shield. The two should negate each other.
Not to mention that what you said is just speculation, since the codex doesnt metion anything about it

Kinetic barriers, commonly called shields, provide protection against most mass accelerator weapons. Whether on starships or a soldier's suit of armor, the basic principle remains the same.

Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to sit down without knocking away their chair.

The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation

You see, only small objects/projectiles are mentioned. Do throw, pull, shockwave use projectiles/small objects at all???
According to codex, shields should nullify bullets, not biotics.

Modifié par ComputerEnthusiast, 24 mai 2011 - 04:39 .

[Dave666]

@Darkstar Aurora, the reason that this topic comes up so often is because of the unfair effect it has on power users. By negating almost all of their abilities until the enemies are at half of their total health (including protections) you're basically turning powers into glorified finishing moves. The protections simply don't affect the gun-centric classes in this way. They can still get One Shot Kills(or leave them so close to death that a light breeze would finish them off) the vast majority of the time, even with all of these Protections.

[Admoniter]

It was an interesting idea but the execution just left a sour taste in my mouth. As others have stated time and again insanity is much more difficult with caster classes than combat classes, which can still faceroll through the game with minimal effort (compared to the caster classes.) That alone is a problem, when one of your methods for raising difficulty involves dropping hammers on one half of the classes and giving more colorful health bars for the enemies of the other classes. IMO that is a sign the the system needs major retooling or needs to get the axe.

My ideal system would be something like this.

Barriers no longer exist ala ME2 style. They are now a power than any biotic can employ for a short period of time, functioning almost identically to barriers in ME1; with the exception that when barriers are up they nullify all biotic attacks with the exception of singularity.

Shields protect against bullets, pure and simple. They do no more and no less, someone shoots you, your shields take damage; enemy bites you, hits you, uses a tech/biotic power on you, uses a weapon that does not uses small fast moving projectiles, you directly take the damage.

Armor functions as amour should; no more of this armor absorbs a certain amount of damage then completely fails bs; the exception being armor pieces you can shoot off, which cease to provide protection when they are dislodged. Enemies would no longer have an armor bar, instead their health bar is either bright red (no armor) or orange (armor). Armor would continually absorb a percentage of the damage dealt to the health; so for example your foe has armor that nullifies 50% of damage dealt, your attack does 100 points of damage, 50 points of damage are dealt to said foe. The percentage of damage mitigated by armor is determined by the type of enemy, thugs if they have armor at all would have minimal damage protection, mercs would have slightly more, elite units would have significantly more and so on and so forth. When armor is removed the overall percentage of damage protection the armor affords is lost. Also armor no longer nullifies biotics so throw will still toss a person around whether they have armor equipped or not, the only difference is that now armor almost completely mitigates the damage done by the biotic attack and lessens the impact. So using throw as an example again lets say it does 60 points of damage, and tosses the target ten feet, with armor equipped the damage is reduced to 15 and the target will only be knocked back 3 feet. For powers that have a duration like pull the amount of time that a target is affected by the power is reduced when wearing armor; so for arguments sake lets say that pull lasts for 6 seconds normally, on a foe with armor the time spent floating without a care in the world is reduced to 2 seconds.

As an added bonus enemies that are equipped with armor gain limited health regeneration. The health bar is now represented in segments for enemies, enemies can regenerate partially damaged segments only, so once a segment of health is empty it cannot be regenerated, similar to the Resistance system or the Reach system. The more prestigious the enemy the fewer segments there are that make up their health bar, so for example elite enemies would have 2-4 segments, whereas mooks could have anywhere from 5-10; meaning that elite enemies will regenerate much more health if given the opportunity, making it imperative to get them down fast and permanently.

Atleast that would be the system I would like to see.

Modifié par Admoniter, 24 mai 2011 - 05:20 .

[lazuli]

Dave666 wrote...

lazuli wrote...
I play all of the classes, though Vanguards and Infiltrators are tied for most complete playthroughs.  I have a few Insanity Adept runs under my belt, though, if that's what you're driving at.

I'll admit that it partly was.  I had a feeling that you'd be more of an exception to the rule.  I've been in a few of these discussions about enemy protections and often there'll be quite a few who say 'they're fine as they are, leave them alone', when questioned about which classes they use its invariably one of the three combat classes.  Of course they think protections are fine, they never even bloody feel them.
 
To give you credit where its due, you have said that you're open to new ideas.

I have a few concerns with changing the protection system, concerns that I can only imagine the developers have come up with on their own.

1) Making biotics pass through protections would trivialize most enemies.  ME1 was very easy if you managed your biotics effectively.
2) Making some biotic powers pass through protections and not others leads to inconsistency and a lack of clarity, especially when it's only certain evolutions of a given power that penetrate defenses.
3) The defense system adds layers to combat.  I would argue that it adds layers of complexity, as it creates the need for different powers and weapon functions.  Others would argue that it adds layers of needless fluff, or a less diplomatic word.

[aimlessgun]

I like the system and I think biotics work absolutely fine in ME2 because protections are so absurdly trivial to strip.

They can obviously tune the game to hopefully make it equally difficult for all classes, and improvements to the combat are welcome, but the basic idea of protections was sound.

[TaHol100]

I don't mind them at all, after a while I got used to them. My Adept manages well in Hardcore, I just gave him Energy Drain. All I hope is that there would be a good biotic power against armor, like tech classes has incinnerate. Now I have to count in having someone in my team with Sguad ammo that burns armor. It is all about choises. Tech classes are my favorites 'cos they have no limits like biotics have.

[lazuli]

TaHol100 wrote...

I don't mind them at all, after a while I got used to them. My Adept manages well in Hardcore, I just gave him Energy Drain. All I hope is that there would be a good biotic power against armor, like tech classes has incinnerate. Now I have to count in having someone in my team with Sguad ammo that burns armor. It is all about choises. Tech classes are my favorites 'cos they have no limits like biotics have.

Warp deals extra damage to armor.  It typically lacks Incinerate's area of effect, though.

[Bluefuse]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...


+ Its called INSANITY for a reason, and the intent is that you are not hiding behind cover at maximum range endlessly throwing warp fields

Whenever I'm fighting the Collectors, I always bring Thane and Miranda along and warp the heck out of everyone while using the Mattock rifle. I agressively blitz and kill an enemy every second. *WARP pop pop pop WARP pop pop pop*

[CajNatalie]

Spamming warp destroys the whole point of an adept.
You're supposed to be controlling enemies (and the scenery, too... but that's no longer possible in ME2 at all, further evidence of over-reduced usefulness of biotics), not spamming something that is a poor substitute for an Engineer's Incinerate but just happens to work on barriers.

It's pathetic seeing even your enemies using nothing but warp. But then of course, I suppose your shield and it's nonsense 'auto-win' system versus biotics, despite only being supposed to stop bullets, means enemy biotics know that all their powers are useless... except warp.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 24 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

[Ghost Warrior]

God I need help,considering the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the thread title.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 24 mai 2011 - 05:02 .

[Tamahome560]

Admoniter wrote...

It was an interesting idea but the execution just left a sour taste in my mouth. As others have stated time and again insanity is much more difficult with caster classes than combat classes, which can still faceroll through the game with minimal effort (compared to the caster classes.) That alone is a problem, when one of your methods for raising difficulty involves dropping hammers on one half of the classes and giving more colorful health bars for the enemies of the other classes. IMO that is a sign the the system needs major retooling or needs to get the axe.

My ideal system would be something like this.

Barriers no longer exist ala ME2 style. They are now a power than any biotic can employ for a short period of time, functioning almost identically to barriers in ME1; with the exception that when barriers are up they nullify all biotic attacks with the exception of singularity.

Shields protect against bullets, pure and simple. They do no more and no less, someone shoots you, your shields take damage; enemy bites you, hits you, uses a tech/biotic power on you, uses a weapon that does not uses small fast moving projectiles, you directly take the damage.

Armor functions as amour should; no more of this armor absorbs a certain amount of damage then completely fails bs; the exception being armor pieces you can shoot off, which cease to provide protection when they are dislodged. Enemies would no longer have an armor bar, instead their health bar is either bright red (no armor) or orange (armor). Armor would continually absorb a percentage of the damage dealt to the health; so for example your foe has armor that nullifies 50% of damage dealt, your attack does 100 points of damage, 50 points of damage are dealt to said foe. The percentage of damage mitigated by armor is determined by the type of enemy, thugs if they have armor at all would have minimal damage protection, mercs would have slightly more, elite units would have significantly more and so on and so forth. When armor is removed the overall percentage of damage protection the armor affords is lost. Also armor no longer nullifies biotics so throw will still toss a person around whether they have armor equipped or not, the only difference is that now armor almost completely mitigates the damage done by the biotic attack and lessens the impact. So using throw as an example again lets say it does 60 points of damage, and tosses the target ten feet, with armor equipped the damage is reduced to 15 and the target will only be knocked back 3 feet. For powers that have a duration like pull the amount of time that a target is affected by the power is reduced when wearing armor; so for arguments sake lets say that pull lasts for 6 seconds normally, on a foe with armor the time spent floating without a care in the world is reduced to 2 seconds.

As an added bonus enemies that are equipped with armor gain limited health regeneration. The health bar is now represented in segments for enemies, enemies can regenerate partially damaged segments only, so once a segment of health is empty it cannot be regenerated, similar to the Resistance system or the Reach system. The more prestigious the enemy the fewer segments there are that make up their health bar, so for example elite enemies would have 2-4 segments, whereas mooks could have anywhere from 5-10; meaning that elite enemies will regenerate much more health if given the opportunity, making it imperative to get them down fast and permanently.

Atleast that would be the system I would like to see.

I agree with this system + a regenerative shields system.

The way protections work now is bad and need to be changed and I think Bioware has already seen complaints about this and are taking them into consideration.

[CroGamer002]

Da Mecca wrote...

Nice concept, but done wrong.

Shield do not make you immune to biotics.

Barriers should be the only thing that can negate biotics(Unless it's warp


Armor should resist damage not negate it.

What?

ME2 system is good.

If they did that then Biotic classes would be overpowered again.

[CroGamer002]

Bluko wrote...

 Yeah the defensive layers kind of put a hinderance on the Biotic abilities (except Warp). The 3 Combat classes work well enough. Although now that anyone can use any weapon it should be less of a problem to tear down defenses. I think the Devs stated though that they want all players to use their weapons and not just spam powers like in ME1. I'm fine with this.

However Biotic and Tech classes also posses the strongest abilities for taking down Shields, Armor, and Barriers. So it's not like they are gimped. You just have to choose do you want to take down defenses faster or finish enemies off faster?

I dunno. Personally I would like to see all enemies have Shields again like they should. Seriously everyone is suppose to have shields. Although for LOKI Mechs and Husks it's reasonable to assume they wouldn't. What I would have done is...

Shields
Offer additional protection, and recharge after a period of time. They do not stop Biotics.

Armor
Offers additional protection and negates the effects of most Biotics. (Throw, Pull, and Singularity)

Barriers
Offers additional protection, regenerate, and negates the effects of all Biotics.

Basically:
Biotics > Shields
Tech > Armor
Combat > Barriers

Unless there are lot of enemies with Barriers, system is flawed for Biotic classes.

[CajNatalie]

Well it's better to make them have any significance in power, overpowered or otherwise, rather than be underpowered and near useless.
It's not a black & white issue anyway, seriously... Mesina... do you understand the concept of 'balance'? Balance is what any reasonable person is arguing for when they bring up the protection system and its flaws.

[Ahglock]

Mesina2 wrote...

What?

ME2 system is good.

If they did that then Biotic classes would be overpowered again.

Yeah it is so much better now that combat classes are overpowered.  Power classes should be in robes studying a book or someting and not fighting like the real men.  

Having played the levels without protections I don't find your assertion really accurate.  Soldiers are just as powerful as adepts on normal, a hail of bullets in AR kills just as fast as pull does.  And I never really get why it is okay to OSOK a target but to CC that same target is overpowered.  

[Da Mecca]

Who cares if something is oveerpowered anyway?

It's not a multiplayer game.