278 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

aimlessgun wrote...

Trinity66 wrote...

I agree with all what The Spamming Troll said.
I don't even need squadmates in ME2. I fact, I don't remember when was the last time I opened power wheel and use squaddies powers. So, for me, ME1 was more tactical, since i had to stop for a bit, open power wheel, choose liara's singularity and wrex's wrap and BAM, finish them of with shot gun..
In ME2 you spend a lot of time behind cover and squaddies just love to take bullets and die often, unless you tell them to sit tight.
And like some others, I don't understand why armor blocks my pull/throw. So, let'0s say I'm playing vanguard and 85% of time I'm using charge, while in ME1 all powers was enjoyable and usefull.
Adept has crappy weapons, so give me the chance to use my damn biotics!
Also, pardon my english.

Do you think Adepts are underpowered in ME2? If you think they're underpowered in ME2, and you're not using squadpowers, there's your problem right there.

You can use your biotics. I used them constantly, all the time, 24/7. Just know how to play the game, and enemy protections are gone in an instant.

you keep saying you use biotics on insanity, but dont just use singularity or warp. so how do you use biotics? after you use your guns to clear protections perhaps? after youve used mirandas sabotage or mordins incinerate? now what other class needs to pass similar checks in order to play as that class??? does a soldier hav eto use biotics in order to use its weapons. why doesnt an infiltrator need to bring grunt and jack??? its all about design, and its designed wrong.

sure using throw on a protected enemy means im "using biotics" but it certainly doesnt mean im using them effectivley or to their actual potential.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Removing protection = rendering 90% of all powers useless + renders all enemies useless + combat gone > game ruined

Anyone claiming "moan-moan, powers should always work, moan-moan" have no clue whatsoever what that will do to the game, thus are not to be taken serious.

Biotic (and other powers) are the MOST EFFECTIVE on Insanity, anyone too ignorant to deal protection (read unable to press one button, before the next), play on Casual coz that's the difficulty level which suits your abilities.

what the heck does that first sentence even mean????

noone wants EVERY biotic ability to work ALL the time. its not black and white, im sure someones tried to explain that to you before tho.

enemy protections are still present on lower difficulties.

[Someone With Mass]

It's easy to use the biotics that were designed to take out armor, yeah. Too bad that there are only two-three of them.

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

what the heck does that first sentence even mean????

It means what happens to the game if you take away protection.

noone wants EVERY biotic ability to work ALL the time. its not black and white, im sure someones tried to explain that to you before tho.

That's how it works on Insanity; you cannot use EVERY power ALL the time - you can, however, use every biotic ability to its fullest effect ALL THE TIME.

enemy protections are still present on lower difficulties.

Are they troubling you too? If not, what's the points of this thread anyway?

now what other class needs to pass similar checks in order to play as that class??? does a soldier hav eto use biotics in order to use its weapons. why doesnt an infiltrator need to bring grunt and jack??? its all about design, and its designed wrong.

The Soldier and Infiltrator use powers on themselves, not on enemies - obviously protection is irrelevant to em. Playing on Insanity does have impact on combat classes btw. Only the Widow and Claymore can kill enemies with a single shot - weapons, not powers, do the work / damage. Adepts cannot use these weapons, but Vanguards using the Scimitar, Katana, or Evi cannot one-shot enemies - neither can a Mantis wielding Infiltrator without using Cloak to boost damage (which limits RoF to 1 shot per 6-12 seconds).

There will be no weapon restrictions in ME3; thus Adepts will be able to use the Claymore too - slap a Singularity on someones butt; move in and blast his brains out, for example.

[NackterGolfer]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Removing protection = rendering 90% of all powers useless + renders all enemies useless + combat gone > game ruined
...

what the heck does that first sentence even mean????

I can explain:

If Bioware removes protections or their protection against biotics/conc. shot/neural shock etc. it renders 90% of all class-powers useless like incinerate, overload, energy drain. It therefore renders all enemies useless, since they are then crowd-controlled anyway. So basically combat is gone and the game is ruined.

And actually it isn't even a sentence. But to whom am I explaining? Didn't get it by yourself? I pity you. <3

Honestly, I played Adepts too on Insanity, which seems to be the primary condition to have any valid opinion. You say Adepts are underpowered and the weakest class out there. Others say you're partially right, others disagree completely. The only trouble I had with my Adept was the Arrival DLC. A lone Adept is not a good match against YMIRs, but that's it. I owned collectors so hard, even krogan, varren etc. I had more trouble with my engineer, to be honest. I can't see your point. Of course Singularity could be more powerful without breaking the game, as could the engineer's drone.

My personal viewpoint: I like the defenses, it adds complexity. And that you'll have to use guns, no matter what. I like.

One thing though: With infiltrator, soldier, vanguard you maybe have more choices regarding squadmates, but there are other things (like ammo etc.) you leave out of your consideration, so normally you will take special squadmates for special missions. I agree they have the upper hand in ME2, but that doesn't make Adepts bad in any way. 

You will disagree, however I highly doubt you will accomplish it being changed for ME2. For ME3? Doubt it too.

So a friendly suggestion: Instead of spending your time ranting in several threads, why not turn difficulty down? You get exactly what you want. Adepts are insane killing powerhouses on the lower difficulties. Maybe this sounds arrogant, it's not meant as such.

On the other hand, you could entertain me with threads like this till ME3 is published. I dare you.

Modifié par NackterGolfer, 24 mai 2011 - 08:20 .

[CajNatalie]

So what if it's not hard as an Adept after all... the difficulty doesn't provide any real adjustments for us combat-class lovers so it's even less 'not as hard' for us!

Complaining as if we're moaning 'oh dear Adepts have it so tough' is such a straw man of an assumption.
Many of us argue that to balance the game, gun-balanced classes also need to have things that screw them over and mean they have to rely on team-mates or specific powers.
Of course then if everyone's resisted in some way, then there needs to be a way for powers/bullets to still have a partial effect, even if not a full effect. Particularly to allow cases such as the Arrival DLC where you're all by your lonesome unable to rely on team-mates to strip whatever's blocking your class' special stuff and have to slowly and unenjoyably power through it using abilities/weapons your class does not specialise in.

The argument any reasonable person is going for is balance.
Balance.
All classes get the same increase in difficulty with the same increase in the need to think, instead of 3 classes getting multi-colored health bars and 3 classes suddenly having a whole new layer of thought to deal with. Excuse the pun.

Protections? Fine. Make them make a little more sense and have a balanced range of effects for ALL classes.
No-one can really deny that every class was overpowered in ME1... ME2 did take a step in the right direction, but they just stumbled and kept going a little too far until they missed the point completely. Now the combat classes have major disparity with the power classes. Doesn't matter whether one side has it too easy or the other too hard... it's imbalanced, period.
Maybe they're going to get themselves off the floor and move back to that place of balance they were stepping towards originally and not trip over this time, for ME3.
Or maybe they won't much to the nerd-rage of people everywhere. Who knows.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 24 mai 2011 - 09:53 .

[The Spamming Troll]

its too easy for you, isnt it boz?

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

what the heck does that first sentence even mean????

It means what happens to the game if you take away protection.

who wants to take away protections?

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

noone
wants EVERY biotic ability to work ALL the time. its not black and
white, im sure someones tried to explain that to you before tho.

That's
how it works on Insanity; you cannot use EVERY power ALL the time - you
can, however, use every biotic ability to its fullest effect ALL
THE TIME.

i care very little about ME2. im reffering to ME3s potential dealings with enemy protections and difficulty settings. so boz, what if ME3 gave the player the choice to choose which abilities worked and which ones didnt? as in heavy throw penetrating defenses instead of stasis. since ME3 has evolved ability options, what is the reasoning id want to put a sinlge point into an ability that will accomplish very little for my character?

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

now
what other class needs to pass similar checks in order to play as that
class??? does a soldier hav eto use biotics in order to use its weapons.
why doesnt an infiltrator need to bring grunt and jack??? its all about
design, and its designed wrong.

The Soldier and
Infiltrator use powers on themselves, not on enemies - obviously
protection is irrelevant to em. Playing on Insanity does have impact on
combat classes btw. Only the Widow and Claymore can kill enemies with a
single shot - weapons, not powers, do the work / damage. Adepts cannot
use these weapons, but Vanguards using the Scimitar, Katana, or Evi
cannot one-shot enemies - neither can a Mantis wielding Infiltrator
without using Cloak to boost damage (which limits RoF to 1 shot per 6-12
seconds).

There will be no weapon restrictions in ME3; thus
Adepts will be able to use the Claymore too - slap a Singularity on
someones butt; move in and blast his brains out, for example.

signature abilites are satisfyingly OP and work on protections, you are correct.

your also correct about the HUGE advantage a class has with options like the claymore and the widow. the combat classes atleast have the ability to OSOK any enemy on screen. can the adept say the same thing, without the need for squadmates, or warp bombs (which every class can do).

widow, in slow mo while cloaked(with stasis as a bonus power!!!) is not the same thing as locust, and ........creating your own warpbombs(with shredder ammo as a bonus power because hes an idiot adept).

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 mai 2011 - 11:02 .

[Admoniter]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
why does barrier trump every ability besides singularity? whats makes barrier so special that it could completely stop my heavy throw? is it just because its a defensive ability, and throw is an offensive ability. id rather see barrier absorb some of the effects of biotics, but saying barrier is supreme to all biotics just doesnt really make sense to me.

also, is shepard going to be immune to biotics if he pops barrier too?

Barrier trumps abilities because occasionally concessions do need to be made. This can be balanced however by making barrier a once off ability, by either having a short active time, a long cool down and make it only contain enough juice to stop a single power; or a combination of the three. The one thing I do actually enjoy about ME2s defenses is warps ability to detonate biotic powers which could be toyed with so as to make warp a hard counter to barrier.

Shep would be but like biotics enemies could use it would have a long individual cool down, would not last long, and only contains enough juice ot nulify one power. So yes while it would be the supreme biotic power it would also be the ultimate one-off, timing would also have to be imperitive for the proper use of this ability. Now the barrier system would probably need more testing than anything else so if it is too supreme it could always be switched into just having a slight dampning effect on biotic powers.

[Kabanya101]

Bioware needs to wake up, and scrap all different types of protection and go straight back just shields. I mean people, be realistic, armor can't regenerate.

Your in the future, your wearing armor, and yet you have an armor "protection bar." Armor works all the time, its not like it degrades. The armor in Mass Effect isn't like a breastplate in ou8r time that after enough beating it becomes useless, the armor in Mass Effect is there indefinitely, maybe some scorch marks, but it can't become dented or damaged beyond repair, so why have a protection bar, no sense. Be logical people.

Barriers. Great idea on paper, but if you think about it, it seems kind of dumb. Your in a fight, your tired, breathing heavily, you just threw a shockwave and you have to recharge your power, but you magically have enough to recharge the "shielding" around you. Again, makes no sense. Powers need to recharge, but yet hold enough to recharge protection, makes no sense.

Shields are the only logical choice. Generated from the armor, always there, never have to think about. Perfect fit for protection for both enemies and Shep. More reliable, and makes A LOT more sense the barrier bars or armor bars.

[The Spamming Troll]

Admoniter wrote...

afer ME2s begining, ME3 could easily start with mordin simply giving shep some kind of reaper tech that reduced the effects of enemies biotics so shepard isnt as easily thrown around as everyone else.

[Bluko]

Mesina2 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

 Yeah the defensive layers kind of put a hinderance on the Biotic abilities (except Warp). The 3 Combat classes work well enough. Although now that anyone can use any weapon it should be less of a problem to tear down defenses. I think the Devs stated though that they want all players to use their weapons and not just spam powers like in ME1. I'm fine with this.

However Biotic and Tech classes also posses the strongest abilities for taking down Shields, Armor, and Barriers. So it's not like they are gimped. You just have to choose do you want to take down defenses faster or finish enemies off faster?

I dunno. Personally I would like to see all enemies have Shields again like they should. Seriously everyone is suppose to have shields. Although for LOKI Mechs and Husks it's reasonable to assume they wouldn't. What I would have done is...

Shields
Offer additional protection, and recharge after a period of time. They do not stop Biotics.

Armor
Offers additional protection and negates the effects of most Biotics. (Throw, Pull, and Singularity)

Barriers
Offers additional protection, regenerate, and negates the effects of all Biotics.

Basically:
Biotics > Shields
Tech > Armor
Combat > Barriers

Unless there are lot of enemies with Barriers, system is flawed for Biotic classes.

The system is flawed for Biotics since about the only use for abilities like Shockwave, Pull, and Throw is to finish enemies off. Staggering has some use, but not much since it's pretty breif and you'll be lucky to get even a few shots off before the animation is finished. Were it not for Singularity the Adept class would be useless. I don't even think you can hope to play an Adept without using Singularity to immobolize protected enemies. Really about the only Biotic Ability worth a damn is Warp. And it's the only reason I take Biotic classes with me on Insanity. Characters like Jack and Samara have really limited utility and are nigh useless save perhaps for their bonus powers.

I just don't find Biotics that useful in ME2 since about all they do is save you ammo. Really most of the time you are better off just shooting an enemy to kill them. If Enemies had more Health then say Shields/Armor/Barriers then Biotics could be a little more worthwhile. But it'd be kind of silly to do that. I fail to see how Biotics would be any overpowered if they could bypass shields, but not Armor and Barriers. All enemies should have Shields. And all Biotic Enemies should have Barriers. And a good number of enemies should have armor as well.

Currently as the game stands you're better off shooting things. Heck on Normal Difficulty you almost never need to use abilities at all since simply shooting things is nearly as effective and almost as fast. First time I played ME2 I don't think I even brought the abilities menu up unless I was fighting something like a YMIR Mech. Hell I barely used Adrenaline Rush, cause I honestly didn't need to.

The way the game is all you need is an SMG/AR and Inferno Ammo and you can kill everything quite easily.

[CajNatalie]

Bluko wrote...

The way the game is all you need is an SMG/AR and Inferno Ammo and you can kill everything quite easily.

This.

Longevity is too awful for (so-called) 'crowd' control powers to be any use.
I say so-called because they only target one enemy at a time now unless you spend a whole 10 points on the specific evolution and manage to grab a group where all members of said group have had their lolprotections stripped.

The HP of enemies on Insanity made me somewhat more willing to whip out a biotic or two every so often, compared to Hardcore, but everyone was still made of paper so I still felt far too little value in biotics compared to the value of techs and bullets.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 25 mai 2011 - 12:32 .

[Ace of Dawn]

I actually don't understand why biotic and tech abilities are impeded at all by shields, based on the codex:

"Kinetic barriers, colloquially called "shields", provide protection against most mass accelerator weapons. Whether on a starship or a soldier's suit of armor, the basic principle remains the same.
Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields
projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small
objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from
bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to
sit down without knocking away their chair.
The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation."

The secondary codex entry also says that it does not protect against "extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation."

So, and object's speed is what determines if a shield is raised. Bullets obiously have a speed factor involved, but other things do not. Incinerate and Cryo Blast should be able to get past shields without any issues. And most powers should outright ignore shields.

Barriers could be made arguably different. Since they are "heavier" shields, they could impede heavier hitting things. Like water and bullets. Lower caliber bullets still having energy to some degree, but higher caliber bullets are just outright stopped (.50 cal bullet basically disintegrated when fired at water).

So they can all remain in the game, and even be "layered", but don't actually act as a extended health bars, but differing ones. If you shoot, shields are dropped, but if you use biotic attacks, barriers will drop. So combat is more or less switched up.

If you are an adept, and facing an enemy with shields and barriers, your biotic attacks would be dealing some damage against barriers, but once they're down their full effect can kick in. But if you want, you can shoot at him and your bullets would ignore the barrier and deal with the shields. More or less, you still have resistances to deal with, and your class would still have a tricky time with it, but at the same time, you wouldn't be completely ineffectual against something (adepts against shields, engineers against barriers). And maybe not every enemy would have both, meaning you could conceivably throw a fully shielded enemy, or shoot down an opponent with barrier.

And armor should be more along ME1 terms. Not an actual bar, but augment damage taken and your "physics threshold". Even if you can outright throw a shielded enemy, their resistances may make it so that throw isn't as effective. They're thrown back only a few feet, or the stun is lower, or they break free of it quicker. Damage taken by bullets is also lowered.

Instead of the bar, visually represent armor, and with it, we can gain an idea of just how effective different attacks will be.

But that's my two cents.

[Bozorgmehr]

Bluko wrote...

The system is flawed for Biotics since about the only use for abilities like Shockwave, Pull, and Throw is to finish enemies off. Staggering has some use, but not much since it's pretty breif and you'll be lucky to get even a few shots off before the animation is finished. Were it not for Singularity the Adept class would be useless. I don't even think you can hope to play an Adept without using Singularity to immobolize protected enemies. Really about the only Biotic Ability worth a damn is Warp. And it's the only reason I take Biotic classes with me on Insanity. Characters like Jack and Samara have really limited utility and are nigh useless save perhaps for their bonus powers.

Thanks for stating you haven't got a clue about ME2's gameplay mechanics whatsoever.

I just don't find Biotics that useful in ME2 since about all they do is save you ammo. Really most of the time you are better off just shooting an enemy to kill them. If Enemies had more Health then say Shields/Armor/Barriers then Biotics could be a little more worthwhile. But it'd be kind of silly to do that. I fail to see how Biotics would be any overpowered if they could bypass shields, but not Armor and Barriers. All enemies should have Shields. And all Biotic Enemies should have Barriers. And a good number of enemies should have armor as well.

You're getting worse. First, enemies have 1:2 defense-health ratio. Second, having powers work through defenses makes almost all powers redundant. What's the purpose of Singularity if you can Pull every goon? It's also great "gameplay" to have all enemies floating around helplessly, eh? Really challenging.

Currently as the game stands you're better off shooting things. Heck on Normal Difficulty you almost never need to use abilities at all since simply shooting things is nearly as effective and almost as fast. First time I played ME2 I don't think I even brought the abilities menu up unless I was fighting something like a YMIR Mech. Hell I barely used Adrenaline Rush, cause I honestly didn't need to.

On Normal enemies will die by looking at em. Oh, and an Adept using only his/her powers will be able to complete ME2 a lot faster than an Adept using only guns. But you've obviously missed the whole point of ME - it's about combining shooting with using powers/abilities. Doing so, will not only make you a much stronger combatant, it also adds a lot of fun (regardless class).

The way the game is all you need is an SMG/AR and Inferno Ammo and you can kill everything quite easily.

Every class (except Soldiers) have SMGs and all classes can use ARs - ammo powers add very little to total damage (most of the time ammo is completely redundant btw).

What does this have to do with powers anyway? You can play ME2 using only guns, you can play without squadmates too, heavy weapons are not needed; Adepts can also chose to ignore weapons completely and kill everything using powers only. Your points is?

[aimlessgun]

Bluko wrote...

The system is flawed for Biotics since about the only use for abilities like Shockwave, Pull, and Throw is to finish enemies off. Staggering has some use, but not much since it's pretty breif and you'll be lucky to get even a few shots off before the animation is finished. Were it not for Singularity the Adept class would be useless. I don't even think you can hope to play an Adept without using Singularity to immobolize protected enemies. 

I disagree. Enemies have far more HP than protections. On Insanity it is a significant amount of time to gun down enemy HP as an adept, esp. if they're taking cover and such. 

The reason "enemies are as good as dead once their protections are gone" is NOT becuase their HP is easy to shoot down. It's because they can be dealt with using your biotics. They still have lots of HP, but biotics can take them out of the fight instantly. 

In ME1, there weren't a lot of opportunities to kill people by throwing them off stuff. In ME2, almost every single environment has such opportunities. The level designers did a great job of incorporating this into the game. 

That means, once protections are down, Pull is an instant cast, tracking, OHKO on a 1.8s CD, on any difficulty. That is incredibly powerful. With Pull Field you have a OHKO on potentially multiple enemies on a 1.8s CD. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 25 mai 2011 - 02:20 .

[aimlessgun]

Double post!

Modifié par aimlessgun, 25 mai 2011 - 02:17 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Boz wrote:
Adepts can also chose to ignore weapons completely and kill everything using powers only. Your points is?

I cant imagine you said that. Of course, you COULD do it, but it's not worth wasting your time and effort. In ME2, if you dont rely on weapons, how long will you finish a level???

[CajNatalie]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You're getting worse. First, enemies have 1:2 defense-health ratio. Second, having powers work through defenses makes almost all powers redundant. What's the purpose of Singularity if you can Pull every goon? It's also great "gameplay" to have all enemies floating around helplessly, eh? Really challenging.

I have to say something to this point... I just have to...

It's also great "gameplay" to OSOK all enemies, eh? You know, like the combat classes...?

As much as I loved playing as a Vanguard and being able to use charge as a way to doom mooks to a bloody death with my shotty, and as much fun as it may be being able to have an Infiltrator whip out a sniper rifle, go invisible for a mystery boost, and blow someone's head off, there's nothing quite on that level that comes from an Adept. Yes you can use the scenery to finish people off, but you have to work them down first, as opposed to just popping a sniper slug in them or smashing in to them head-first without having to deal with the fact they're lolprotected.
If I get to have so much fun with my Vanguard and Infiltrator no matter the difficulty, why can't the power classes have so much fun dooming mooks? Or alternatively... why should I get to have so much fun when I'm supposed to be getting the 'ultimate' ME2 challenge?!
Either bring combat classes down, or power classes up.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 25 mai 2011 - 02:55 .

[JayhartRIC]

Trinity66 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Trinity66 wrote...

I agree with all what The Spamming Troll said.
I don't even need squadmates in ME2. I fact, I don't remember when was the last time I opened power wheel and use squaddies powers. So, for me, ME1 was more tactical, since i had to stop for a bit, open power wheel, choose liara's singularity and wrex's wrap and BAM, finish them of with shot gun..
In ME2 you spend a lot of time behind cover and squaddies just love to take bullets and die often, unless you tell them to sit tight.
And like some others, I don't understand why armor blocks my pull/throw. So, let'0s say I'm playing vanguard and 85% of time I'm using charge, while in ME1 all powers was enjoyable and usefull.
Adept has crappy weapons, so give me the chance to use my damn biotics!
Also, pardon my english.

Do you think Adepts are underpowered in ME2? If you think they're underpowered in ME2, and you're not using squadpowers, there's your problem right there.

You can use your biotics. I used them constantly, all the time, 24/7. Just know how to play the game, and enemy protections are gone in an instant.

I know i can use biotics. I didn't said adept are underpowred, it's just not that fun to play, like you're saying. Most biotic are useless until you strip of shield and armor. Even husks have armor and you have to running around battlefield and take down their shield, so you can throw them back. Again, I'm not saying i'ts too hard to take them down, but its not that fun, really. 

Insanity Adept was actually my most fun playthrough.  The funny thing is people say the Infiltrator is one of the best classes and I can't beat the game with them, but flew through it with the Adept.

[tonnactus]

Dave666 wrote...



Personally I think that guns should be all but useless against Shields.  Thats what they're designed for, stopping fast moving projectiles.  You should still be able to whittle them down with guns but it should be very expensive on ammo.  Lets see how the gun-centric classes like having to bring someone with Overload along to deal with Shields.

Every class should have a weakness,not just the caster classes. For example why there arent more enemies like the oculus that are able to spot infiltrators despite of cloak??(harbinger drones should be able to do the same thing)

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
 Second, having powers work through defenses makes almost all powers redundant. What's the purpose of Singularity if you can Pull every goon?

Thats something for the evolutions. Singularity should be able to hold more then protected enemy in check,while heavy pull works through defenses,but only on one enemy,but including such units like heavy robots.

See how easy that was?

Modifié par tonnactus, 25 mai 2011 - 06:18 .

[Bozorgmehr]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

I cant imagine you said that. Of course, you COULD do it, but it's not worth wasting your time and effort. In ME2, if you dont rely on weapons, how long will you finish a level???

It's not recommendable of course, but it's the same thing as saying you can play ME2 using only weapons - that was the point I tried to make

How long it takes depends on the mission. Adepts can run through the first part of the Suicide Mission (open the valves - Insanity) in a little over 3 minutes. Without using weapons, it will be around 5 minutes (possibly less) > using weapons and powers, instead of powers only, nets a ~40% increase in speed. Not much imo, which means powers do play an important role in combat performance (like they should).

CajNatalie wrote...

I have to say something to this point... I just have to...

It's also great "gameplay" to OSOK all enemies, eh? You know, like the combat classes...?

I already mentioned this is not related to class and powers. Weapons are the only tools to OSOK, the only two are not available to Adepts. If Adepts could pick up the Widow or Claymore on the Collector Ship, they could also OSOK. Widow-less Infiltrators and Claymore-lacking Vanguards cannot OSOK enemies, because they're stuck with the same weapons Adepts can use.

As much as I loved playing as a Vanguard and being able to use charge as a way to doom mooks to a bloody death with my shotty, and as much fun as it may be being able to have an Infiltrator whip out a sniper rifle, go invisible for a mystery boost, and blow someone's head off, there's nothing quite on that level that comes from an Adept. Yes you can use the scenery to finish people off, but you have to work them down first, as opposed to just popping a sniper slug in them or smashing in to them head-first without having to deal with the fact they're lolprotected.

I consider sniping to be dull; Charging is much cooler but gets old after a while - tossing enemies around and playing with em while they're screaming for mummy never gets old Which class one likes best is personal preference, the Adept is my favorite - it wouldn't be without protection though.

If I get to have so much fun with my Vanguard and Infiltrator no matter the difficulty, why can't the power classes have so much fun dooming mooks? Or alternatively... why should I get to have so much fun when I'm supposed to be getting the 'ultimate' ME2 challenge?!

Either bring combat classes down, or power classes up.

The weapon issue will be solved in ME3 (so it seems) which makes a big difference.

In ME2, combat classes are 'complete' before the game even begins. They can be level 6 before the first mission, which allows maxing ARush, Cloak or Charge; they also start with powerful weapons. Combat classes lack a decent leveling system, they start strong and remain strong (though they're actually becoming weaker while leveling up). Casters rely on multiple powers, developing em requires (more) time. Starting weapons are also not really great. However, casters are getting stronger all the time (like it should be) and with bonus weapon they're equally powerful compared to the combat classes.

Anything that increases the challenge, without making things tedious, is most welcome. My main point is that dumping the protection system is not going to help (it will make things worse). I'd also like to add that some difference between classes is not a major issue. ME is single player, so making sure each class has its own unique playstyle is much more important than focusing on perfect balance between them imo.

tonnactus wrote...

Thats something for the evolutions. Singularity should be able to hold more then protected enemy in check,while heavy pull works through defenses,but only on one enemy,but including such untis like heavy robots.

See how easy that was?

Yeah, a really easy way to make powers redundant.

Why would I ever want to use Singularity, if I can have 3 YMIRs floating around indefinitely (Heavy Pull)? There can be only one Singularity in play, which doesn't affect (only damages) YMIRs, it's on a +50% cooldown, and CC doesn't last as long. Your brilliant idea also renders Stasis obsolete - it's complete useless, even less so than Singularity. Why bother using Warp? You can Pull two enemies instead, completely removing em from the battle.

Using only your version of Pull, requires 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 shots (with 40% cooldown reduction bonus, you can use Pull every 1.6 seconds) > 20 seconds to clear the Collector Ship ambush: Killing 7 Drones, 2 Guardians, 1 Assassin, 2 Scions and (at least) one Harbinger without using either your weapons or squadmates - only Pull. Doesn't look really appealing to me though, hell ME2 Casual is likely more difficult.

[Bluko]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Thanks for stating you haven't got a clue about ME2's gameplay mechanics whatsoever.

So what do you do all knowing-one? Spam Throw at enemies til they die even if they have Shields up? Or are you someone who abuses stuff like Stasis or just Reaves away instead of using Warp?

And you're telling me that Concussive Shot and Drone aren't as good for that? My point is in comparison to both the Combat and Tech classes have nearly as good staggering/lockdown powers.

On normal difficulty yes Biotics are fine since like a good majority of enemies only have Health Bars. Thus you are free to toss enemies about like ragdolls. My point is more enemies should have Shields, as it makes utterly no sense that Mercs wearing combat armor wouldn't have Shields.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
You're getting worse. First, enemies have 1:2 defense-health ratio. Second, having powers work through defenses makes almost all powers redundant. What's the purpose of Singularity if you can Pull every goon? It's also great "gameplay" to have all enemies floating around helplessly, eh? Really challenging.

Okay true, the regular grunt enemies that have protections added to them on the higher difficulties do have more a bit more Health. (Though I don't know how you know it's a 2:1 ratio given there are no explicitly labeled numbers for such.) Although that certainly isn't true of more difficult foes. Surely Centurions have almost as much Shields as Health. I mean Scions only have Armor. And I'm pretty sure YMIR Mechs have way more Shields and Armor then Health.

Also I was not suggesting Biotics be effective against all enemies like in ME1. All I'm saying is Biotics should be able to bypass Shields. I am not saying that you should be able to Throw an enemy that has Barrier or Armor up however. (It's reasonable to assume a enemy Biotic can counter abilities and Armor is capable of providing some protection against mass effect fields as well. Standard Shields should not however.)

I'm not sure why this is a problem. So Biotics would be able to toss around the few enemies that have Shields like those with none. Doesn't seem unbalanced to me since Tech and Combat classes are much better suited to taking down Shields via Overload and Disruptor Ammo. Why are Biotics gimped at dealing with enemies with Shields? It makes the idea of Vanguard or Adept playing solo against a plethora of enemies with Shields way worse off in comparsion to the Tech and Combat classes.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
On Normal enemies will die by looking at em. Oh, and an Adept using only his/her powers will be able to complete ME2 a lot faster than an Adept using only guns. But you've obviously missed the whole point of ME - it's about combining shooting with using powers/abilities. Doing so, will not only make you a much stronger combatant, it also adds a lot of fun (regardless class).

Yes because I didn't know that! Durr what's abilities for?

<_<

Obviously using abilities on the constant basis, regardless of the class will let you complete the game faster. Though I'm going to say a Soldier can still probably plow through the game faster then an Adept.

I was refering to my first playthrough of the game as a Soldier where I didn't feel the need to use abilities. Seriously you can just shoot away everything with an AR and Incedinary Ammo. I doubt you can manage the same with an Adept with just the SMG. I mean you probably cab and beat the game on Normal, but it would be painfully slow going in comparison to the Soldier.

Also Adept would be helpless on Insanity were it not for the ability of Singularity to hold enemies like Harbinger. Seriously if Singularity didn't have the ability to hold down regular trooper types so you could warp bomb them how would you hope to get through the game?

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Every class (except Soldiers) have SMGs and all classes can use ARs - ammo powers add very little to total damage (most of the time ammo is completely redundant btw).

What does this have to do with powers anyway? You can play ME2 using only guns, you can play without squadmates too, heavy weapons are not needed; Adepts can also chose to ignore weapons completely and kill everything using powers only. Your points is?

My point is it renders the point of having powers, classes, etc. somewhat pointless if the game can be so easily beaten without any powers.

 What I'm trying to get at is while yes Biotics were quite overpowered in ME1, in ME2 Biotics are probably the weakest. In ME2 it's pretty easy to "pew pew pew" your way through opposition. in ME1 you literally could just spam powers to kill everything especially as a Biotic. Basically I don't feel the gameplay is properly balanced yet.
Hell even the Lead Designer has admitted they were a bit too harsh on Biotics. Didn't they even have to release some kind of patch for the game early on or something to address this?

[CajNatalie]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I already mentioned this is not related to class and powers. Weapons are the only tools to OSOK, the only two are not available to Adepts. If Adepts could pick up the Widow or Claymore on the Collector Ship, they could also OSOK. Widow-less Infiltrators and Claymore-lacking Vanguards cannot OSOK enemies, because they're stuck with the same weapons Adepts can use.

Well even if not literally a OSOK, it's very easy to quick-kill off any mook of your choice as an Infil, Soldier, or Vanguard.
I did my Vanguard with the Scimitar, and chose the Assault Rifle as my bonus weapon. If I charged in to any fully protected non-elite non-krogan on Insanity I could always make them dead just as the time dilation ended.
Hell, I even found ways of charging in to up to 4 enemies at once, but I admit that 4 at once requires strippage... I've only done 3 at once without complete defense-stripping on Insanity. An Adept's excuse for a singularity wouldn't have been able to grab all 4 (and if a wide singularity was used, all 4 would have resulted in it mysteriously vanishing anyway upon grabbing the 4th), and then assuming you did get all 4 hilariously flailing in the air, you'd be stuck trying to pop them off in mid-air with either of your pea-shooters.

Ultimately you're supposed to be killing things. Every class needs their own ways of killing things that separates them from the rest, and every class needs ways of being hindered in killing things.
My Vanguard was not hindered. If I wanted it dead, it was easy to make it dead.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 25 mai 2011 - 09:30 .

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yeah, a really easy way to make powers redundant.

Why would I ever want to use Singularity, if I can have 3 YMIRs floating around indefinitely (Heavy Pull)?

The duration of powers is reduced on insanity anyways,so even with stripped defenses a ymir(and any boss/subboss enemy) doesnt float around for 12 seconds(of course it wasnt more then 1-2 seconds anyway). In short: You wrote bull****.

Modifié par tonnactus, 25 mai 2011 - 10:23 .