278 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

One point: The purpose of crowd control is exactly this.Remove/take out dangerous enemies out of the fight.Not throwing/warp bomb critters around.

Do you also complain that singularity neutralize harbinger drones completly?

That with singularity and stasis not even two scions at once pose a danger on horizon?

With the system of Mass Effect 2 no one takes the  heavy  "evolutions" of powers(except singularity who is an area power from the start) because they serve absolutly no purpose at all.

The area versions( like pull field) are just better in nearly all cases.

Modifié par tonnactus, 26 mai 2011 - 10:31 .

[Bozorgmehr]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

I disagree. There are many places in a level you cannot push/pull enemy off map. Even in open map such as Tuchanka, enemy should be close to map boundary to make throw/pull/pull+throw work because the force is much reduced in Insanity.

Every map has insta-kill options. When you're outside you can throw enemies into the statosphere. Remove Krogan armor, Pull him, Heavy Throw = Krogan cosmonaut

Force remains the same regardless difficulty level, only duration powers suffer a 20% penalty (Insanity only).

I agree that level design can be improved to add more options to use physics to help killing enemies. LotSB was a great improvement imo.

For someone who said that (s)he could use biotics without spamming wrap explosion, i will tell you that you are limping yourself because wrap explosion:
- make enemy fly just like shockwave or throw
- the effective radius is much larger than shockwave, throw, pull.
- cause great damage to enemies, as opposed to throw, shockwave.
- you dont have to SHOOT rag-dolled enemy
And for someone who said that (s)he doesnt use singularity when denfense stripping power is not available. Singularity can:
- lock one enemy so you can take less damage when out of cover
- drain enemy' shield
- prepare to set up wrap explosion, with a lot benefit listed above.

Sure, there are certain places where you can throw enemy off map (Collector ship, Collector base...), but they are not much present in entire game, making throw, shockwave situational.

I only use Warp to detonate enemies, and only if there are other targets within the detonation radius. If not, you'll be better off using Throw. Throwing enemies against the ceiling will insta-kill em too (~90% chance, enemies need to be ragdolled first); Throwing enemies against obstacles can, and usually will, inflict massive damage (sometimes more than a Heavy Warp explosion). Throw can be aimed, Warp explosions are not controllable.

Pull and Throw are awesome CC powers, and although knocking enemies down doesn't kill em straight away - it does remove them from the fight for a couple seconds. Throw (and Pull) are insta-killing powers combined with ledges. One Pull or Throw can kill a Krogan or other Elite, who can take 3 warp explosions before dying.

Warp explosions are very powerful, and the Adept is the master of warp explosions. However, there are a lot more ways to kill enemies, and to kill em fast. When I play Adept I use Throw the most, Pull is second, Singularity third and Warp least of all (Shockwave can be used instead of Warp for extra fun and a little less killing power).

Also remember ME2 is not a race-game; speed is not important. Adepts can be insane killers, but the main reason why I like this class so much are the visual effects. Sending enemies flying all over the place is awesome, if this extra fun comes at the price of 10-20% time spend in combat, then so be it - fair trade imo

[CajNatalie]

Honestly, for this idea of biotics working against protections on any enemy, including YMIRs, the long individual cooldowns system would need to return (not that this is a bad thing, I'm just saying that anyone suggesting unnerfing biotics needs to undo the cooldown change).
You can't have the spamtastic recharge times of ME2 and biotics working against all.
If that's what you want, then what you're asking for would truly make biotics more overpowered than they ever were even in Mass Effect 1.

When I modded my ME2 to be more like ME1, I made sure to increase cooldowns... shame I couldn't bring back individual cooldowns but the increased cooldowns themselves meant biotics were limited almost enough.

Note: I have undone my mods after beating the game once with them... ultimately I just wanted to beat Mass Effect 2, not my mod of it. =(

Modifié par CajNatalie, 26 mai 2011 - 10:41 .

[Dave666]

Why is it whenever anyone suggests taking a look at the Protection system people automatically assume that we want all abilities to bypass all protections all the time?

For myself I just want Protections to actually offer some form of hindrance to the gun-centric classes other than a coloured health bar.

[CajNatalie]

I was countering the people who were trying to justify using pull on a group of YMIRs on the previous page, and basically following up on the calculations made.

I personally want hinderances to every class, too, and a more sense-making hinderance system, also.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 26 mai 2011 - 10:55 .

[Dave666]

CajNatalie wrote...

I was countering the people who were trying to justify using pull on a group of YMIRs on the previous page, and basically following up on the calculations made.

I personally want hinderances to every class, too, and a more sense-making hinderance system, also.

Wasn't meant as a go at you personally Caj, its just there have been so many times when I've been in one of these conversations and someone's suggested something and the responses have been along the lines of 'If powers worked through all defences they'd be overpowered' and that always leaves me scratching my head and wondering who suggested that all powers work through all defences?

Many of us have even made suggestions that still hinder powers.  Personally I wouldn't mind it it Shields didn't block Biotics, or at least not completely, but Armour and Barriers did.  Having 1 enemy in 3 be affected is hardly overpowered given that some classes can OSOK enemies.

Modifié par Dave666, 26 mai 2011 - 11:07 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Pull and Throw are awesome CC powers, and although knocking enemies down doesn't kill em straight away - it does remove them from the fight for a couple seconds. Throw (and Pull) are insta-killing powers combined with ledges. One Pull or Throw can kill a Krogan or other Elite, who can take 3 warp explosions before dying.

yeah, but without ledges, throw doesnt have much use

Throwing enemies against the ceiling will insta-kill em too (~90% chance, enemies need to be ragdolled first); Throwing enemies against obstacles can, and usually will, inflict massive damage (sometimes more than a Heavy Warp explosion). Throw can be aimed, Warp explosions are not controllable.

I checked, and i think you should reverse your statement to 90% chance enemies will not be instant-killed by throwing them againts the ceiling.
And i confirmed that my previous statement about reduced force in Insanity is not true.

Throw can be aimed, Warp explosions are not controllable.

yeah, but it comes at a price. Throw can be aimed but it is more difficult to AIM if target is not isolated, for example in a group of protected and unprotected enemies close to each other, or especially if target is moving. And if you use throw not for instant kill or escape situation, you are just wasting your cooldown
Wrap explosion, on the other hand, though not controllable, but it ensures a great hit on enemies since it has large radius which means you dont have to worry so much about accuracy. Of course,
i dont use wrap explosion when enemies are isolated
I saw your vids, Boz, not so many people can control your Adept (play agressively) just like you. But they still choose Insanity, and beat the game. Although i tried not to rely so much on wrap explosion or singularity, the result didnt sastify me.

Also remember ME2 is not a race-game; speed is not important. Adepts can be insane killers, but the main reason why I like this class so much are the visual effects. Sending enemies flying all over the place is awesome, if this extra fun comes at the price of 10-20% time spend in combat, then so be it - fair trade imo

Agreed completely. When i play my Engineer, i enjoy precious moment when the geths kill each other (awesome when target killed in frozen)

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Boz wrote:
I don't think there are many players around who can beat ME2 (noticeably) faster than I can with my Adept, regardless which class they use.

well, you are too proud of yourself. Do you think you can beat Object Rho mission faster than the one who masters Vanguard. And the suicide mission (open valves) where adept benefits from instant killing enemy off ledge www.youtube.com/watch
@boz or anyone who protests changing the current protection system: tired of typing, so i just take a quote from the one which I aggree:

Why is it whenever anyone suggests taking a look at the Protection
system people automatically assume that we want all abilities to bypass
all protections all the time?

Since the topic is Enemy Protection, i think it should apply to both biotic and tech powers. Why no one talk about tech powers,  i think they have some problems too.

[Epic777]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Boz wrote:
I don't think there are many players around who can beat ME2 (noticeably) faster than I can with my Adept, regardless which class they use.

well, you are too proud of yourself. Do you think you can beat Object Rho mission faster than the one who masters Vanguard. And the suicide mission (open valves) where adept benefits from instant killing enemy off ledge www.youtube.com/watch
@boz or anyone who protests changing the current protection system: tired of typing, so i just take a quote from the one which I aggree:

Why is it whenever anyone suggests taking a look at the Protection
system people automatically assume that we want all abilities to bypass
all protections all the time?

Since the topic is Enemy Protection, i think it should apply to both biotic and tech powers. Why no one talk about tech powers,  i think they have some problems too.

Be real, no class kills fasters than a vanguard. 

[tonnactus]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Since the topic is Enemy Protection, i think it should apply to both biotic and tech powers. Why no one talk about tech powers,  i think they have some problems too.

Yes,ai-hack prevented by shields...
Oh dear.

[Dave666]

tonnactus wrote...

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Since the topic is Enemy Protection, i think it should apply to both biotic and tech powers. Why no one talk about tech powers,  i think they have some problems too.

Yes,ai-hack prevented by shields and Armour...
Cryo Blast prevented by everything...

Oh dear.

Fixed that for you.

[ComputerEnthusiast]

tonnactus wrote...

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Since the topic is Enemy Protection, i think it should apply to both biotic and tech powers. Why no one talk about tech powers,  i think they have some problems too.

Yes,ai-hack prevented by shields...
Oh dear.

no AI hack is great because once you remove your synthetics's defense, you just sit there and watch our enemies kill themself
For example Cyro blast, Overload (overheat weapon) should be modified.
Now i dont have time to discuss this in detail, maybe later.

[Someone With Mass]

AI Hacking prevented by shields makes sense, but armor? Come on.

[Bozorgmehr]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

well, you are too proud of yourself. Do you think you can beat Object Rho mission faster than the one who masters Vanguard. And the suicide mission (open valves) where adept benefits from instant killing enemy off ledge www.youtube.com/watch

I'm a casual gamer, nothing special - but I did give the Adept class a proper go before making up my mind. It seems a lot of people started with an Adept - maybe with the ME1 version in mind - and rage-quited because there are actually a couple enemies fighting back. Biotic powers suck is what you'll hear them say. Some of the most extreme moaners could blow my Adept away if they'd spent the time complaining here at the BSN actually playing Adept.

Check the Object Rho topic in the strategy section; fastest time is Soldier, followed by Vanguard, my Adept close behind (a couple seconds) - faster than Sentinel, Engineer and Infiltrator. Oh, and all enemies have shields - which according to some are quite problematic for an Adept

The Vanguard vid you've posted is fast, but only a couple seconds faster than my Adept - which has little to nothing to do with killing speed. Vanguards have the advantage to skip certain sections which have to be crossed on foot by all other classes. It's also worth noting that a the Vanguard (in the vid) takes multiple times more damage than my Adept - Charge shield regen makes it possible, Adepts have biotic powers to reduce enemy fire. There is very little difference in performance.

The insta-kill argument is a bit lame, whenever it comes down to the Adept, there's always complaining "you use warp bombs", "you use guns", "you use a bonus power", "you use squadmates", "you use ledges" etc. I never heard anyone saying those things about a Vanguard or other classes. The Vanguard in the vid you've posted uses Reave, does that make the run unvanguardish?

@boz or anyone who protests changing the current protection system: tired of typing, so i just take a quote from the one which I aggree:

Why is it whenever anyone suggests taking a look at the Protection
system people automatically assume that we want all abilities to bypass
all protections all the time?

Since the topic is Enemy Protection, i think it should apply to both biotic and tech powers. Why no one talk about tech powers,  i think they have some problems too.

If anyone has a better solution than the system used in ME2, please share. Thus far I never heard anything that could work. People complain, which is ok if they have a better idea - if not they should remain silent.

The protection system improves ME2 powers - some are much better than others depending on protection and/or situation - adding some tactical element to the game. It also limits what powers can do - no more ME1 crap when you're executing worthless enemies instead of fighting em. It makes squadmates important, and it makes the game harder without having to put 100 bullets in a grunt's head to kill him. It ain't perfect, it can be improved upon, but it's the lesser evil.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

Yes,ai-hack prevented by shields...
Oh dear.

We know you don't like playing a game, and something challenging is very bad in your book.

Great idea (as usual) let's have AI Hacking work through defenses while we're at it. Maybe in Mass Effect 15 the game can put 50 YMIRs up against you. Shep on his/her own, no guns only AI Hacking destroys 50 heavy mechs while drinking a cup of coffee.

Awesome gameplay!

[Cloaking_Thane]

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

[Someone With Mass]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

I'd like that. That's a pretty neat idea.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

I'd like that. That's a pretty neat idea.

Yea I dont like the idea of "all or nothing" or the dichotomy of the arguements. I think there is a happy medium, I agree mainly w/ boz but do understand some of the Adept frustrations....although I dont think they are underpowered IMO

[jwalker]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

No. I don't like the idea of a power that might work in a certain situation. When I cast a power, I wanna know what will be its effect. Random effects are bad IMO

[Dave666]

jwalker wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

No. I don't like the idea of a power that might work in a certain situation. When I cast a power, I wanna know what will be its effect. Random effects are bad IMO

Indeed.  People complained that in ME:1 because of the accuracy stat they would miss a shot that they had perfectly lined up, why pass this same thing on to powers?

[The Spamming Troll]

even singularitys somewhat ineffectiveness shows people dont want something to "maybe" work.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Yes,ai-hack prevented by shields...
Oh dear.

We know you don't like playing a game, and something challenging is very bad in your book.

Great idea (as usual) let's have AI Hacking work through defenses while we're at it. Maybe in Mass Effect 15 the game can put 50 YMIRs up against you. Shep on his/her own, no guns only AI Hacking destroys 50 heavy mechs while drinking a cup of coffee.

Awesome gameplay!

boz, you are clueless about the other side of the argument.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dave666 wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

No. I don't like the idea of a power that might work in a certain situation. When I cast a power, I wanna know what will be its effect. Random effects are bad IMO

Indeed.  People complained that in ME:1 because of the accuracy stat they would miss a shot that they had perfectly lined up, why pass this same thing on to powers?

The thing is you arent aiming powers in the manner you are aiming guns, (powers are only red icon boxes that cover the entire hitbox)

You do know the effect generally execpt throw might occassionally throw that shielded person off or shockwave might knock a  protected person down occassionally. more incentive to use the power but not overpowered .....even boost it up to 50% as an evolution if you like.

i.e it retains all the characteristics you expect it to have currently, but has an added chance of enhanced effect

Its better than "lets nerf the bullets to be essentially non effective against shields" or the alternate version of "ME2 was pretty much perfect"

I'm not tied to this idea or anything but theres almost no middle ground thought going on here

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 26 mai 2011 - 02:54 .

[Dave666]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

How about an evolution on some powers of a % chance they could work through protection (10%; 20%?)

I don't think that would particularly unbalance the gameplay and would satisfy most it seems

No. I don't like the idea of a power that might work in a certain situation. When I cast a power, I wanna know what will be its effect. Random effects are bad IMO

Indeed.  People complained that in ME:1 because of the accuracy stat they would miss a shot that they had perfectly lined up, why pass this same thing on to powers?

The thing is you arent aiming powers in the manner you are aiming guns, (powers are only red icon boxes that cover the entire hitbox)

You do know the effect generally execpt throw might occassionally throw that shielded person off or shockwave might knock a  protected person down occassionally. more incentive to use the power but not overpowered .....even boost it up to 50% as an evolution if you like.

i.e it retains all the characteristics you expect it to have currently, but has an added chance of enhanced effect

Still potentially problematic though.  Krogan charging! Quick use a power! *Starts praying, please work! Please work! Please work!* DAMNIT! I'm dead.  We need to know that if we use X power it will have Y effect every time.  Or you're basing the gameplay on a roll of the dice.

[Cloaking_Thane]

So dont use (shockwave, throw, etc) it on a charging krogan with armor......use a reliable "I know this will stop him in his tracks power"

If a Krogan with armor is charging you (keep in mind you have squad powers incinerate etc. hopefully) you have other options/ or its likely game over anyway

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 26 mai 2011 - 03:00 .