278 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave666]

aimlessgun wrote...

Well Borz has some vids. If people arguing with him can post some vids where their methods are more effective, but they still think that the Adept is gimped, I'd like to see it

Posts like this make me literally want to scream.  What, so because we haven't created video's we don't have a clue?

I don't remember seeing any video's from Bioware on how to get through a certain level with a certain class, so does that mean that Bioware doesn't have a clue how to play them?

For all you know those posting here are so exceptional that they make even Boz look like an amateur.

For myself, I'm in no way exceptional, I can get through the levels on Insanity with any class without any difficulty, but I'd bet that there are those who can do it faster.

Just because people like Boz feel that a class is fine does not in any way invalidate what others feel about said class.  We have all played through the same levels and had the same things happen, we have simply reached a different conclusion from our experiences.

[The Spamming Troll]

Cancer Puppet wrote...

It would be nice if there were a less obvious system indicating enemy protections. Brightly colored bars break immersion. Maybe making the meters look more like "actual" omni-tool/sensor data would be better that rectangular boxes. Have one style display for biotic barrier strength, another for armor integrity, another indicating shield strength, and when you get down to health there could be something like a heart/vitals monitor.

i agree! i really dislike seeing health bars. health bars shouldnt be in a shooter. im shooting you, your going to die, i dont need a bar telling me exactly how long thatll take. gears does great without health bars, just have visuals that indicate where your at in the enemies health. im really not sure why ME2 has floating health bars. we already have a visual for barrier and tech armor that work perfectly. just add visual cues on the enemies themselves, and remove the floaty bars.

simle, and far more immersivve.

[Bozorgmehr]

Dave666 wrote...

Posts like this make me literally want to scream.  What, so because we haven't created video's we don't have a clue?

Videos are a powerful tool to make a point - much better than words. Anyone who checked the forum after ME2's release will remember the "Charge is suicide on Insanity" complaints. When people started to post vids showing how powerful Charge really is (on Insanity) silenced most.

I, and I think I'm not alone, was very impressed watching others take the place down with Charge and a shotgun. Those videos inspired me to play Vanguard too. Obviously, my first playthrough was with an Adept, and once I had enough of Charging around (for a while), I got back to the Adept and used the skills I picked up playing Vanguard.

The complaining about biotics endured; I didn't have any problem using biotics with my Adept so I decided to record and post videos to show others how I played, hoping my videos would have the same effect on others like those Vanguard vids had on me.

There is still a lot of complaining - mostly because of ignorance - but I've received many messages from people who liked my videos and didn't know how much fun playing an Adept can be. Those vids helped them to improve their own skills, that is all I tried to achieve (and it has been succesful for a lot players).

I don't remember seeing any video's from Bioware on how to get through a certain level with a certain class, so does that mean that Bioware doesn't have a clue how to play them?

For all you know those posting here are so exceptional that they make even Boz look like an amateur.

For myself, I'm in no way exceptional, I can get through the levels on Insanity with any class without any difficulty, but I'd bet that there are those who can do it faster.

Just because people like Boz feel that a class is fine does not in any way invalidate what others feel about said class.  We have all played through the same levels and had the same things happen, we have simply reached a different conclusion from our experiences.

I'm a casual gamer; I play only a couple hours a week - there are definitely better players out there, no question.

My opinion is irrelevant, like everyone else's - we don't develop ME3, eh. The issue is not what anyone likes, the issue is about how the ME2 Adept has been designed. Adepts are soldiers with powerful CC abilities - that's not my view, that's how BW designed the class (and the entire game). Some people expect biotic powers to win the day without using anything else (weapons and squadmates); some people expect every power should be used regardless circumstances, oblivious to the consequences it has on gameplay (i.e. Pull working through defenses breaks the game).

The ME2 Adept is great, the core-system is solid, a little tweaking to correct minor issues is enough to have a great and unique class for ME3. The changes put forth thus far are disastrous, they make the game much worse instead of better so I argue against them.

The current protection system isn't perfect, but it's (at least) a dozen times better than anything posted here at the BSN by those who believe biotic powers suck on Insanity.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Posts like this make me literally want to scream.  What, so because we haven't created video's we don't have a clue?

Videos are a powerful tool to make a point - much better than words. Anyone who checked the forum after ME2's release will remember the "Charge is suicide on Insanity" complaints. When people started to post vids showing how powerful Charge really is (on Insanity) silenced most.

I, and I think I'm not alone, was very impressed watching others take the place down with Charge and a shotgun. Those videos inspired me to play Vanguard too. Obviously, my first playthrough was with an Adept, and once I had enough of Charging around (for a while), I got back to the Adept and used the skills I picked up playing Vanguard.

The complaining about biotics endured; I didn't have any problem using biotics with my Adept so I decided to record and post videos to show others how I played, hoping my videos would have the same effect on others like those Vanguard vids had on me.

There is still a lot of complaining - mostly because of ignorance - but I've received many messages from people who liked my videos and didn't know how much fun playing an Adept can be. Those vids helped them to improve their own skills, that is all I tried to achieve (and it has been succesful for a lot players).

I don't remember seeing any video's from Bioware on how to get through a certain level with a certain class, so does that mean that Bioware doesn't have a clue how to play them?

For all you know those posting here are so exceptional that they make even Boz look like an amateur.

For myself, I'm in no way exceptional, I can get through the levels on Insanity with any class without any difficulty, but I'd bet that there are those who can do it faster.

Just because people like Boz feel that a class is fine does not in any way invalidate what others feel about said class.  We have all played through the same levels and had the same things happen, we have simply reached a different conclusion from our experiences.

I'm a casual gamer; I play only a couple hours a week - there are definitely better players out there, no question.

My opinion is irrelevant, like everyone else's - we don't develop ME3, eh. The issue is not what anyone likes, the issue is about how the ME2 Adept has been designed. Adepts are soldiers with powerful CC abilities - that's not my view, that's how BW designed the class (and the entire game). Some people expect biotic powers to win the day without using anything else (weapons and squadmates); some people expect every power should be used regardless circumstances, oblivious to the consequences it has on gameplay (i.e. Pull working through defenses breaks the game).

The ME2 Adept is great, the core-system is solid, a little tweaking to correct minor issues is enough to have a great and unique class for ME3. The changes put forth thus far are disastrous, they make the game much worse instead of better so I argue against them.

The current protection system isn't perfect, but it's (at least) a dozen times better than anything posted here at the BSN by those who believe biotic powers suck on Insanity.

wait a tick here boz. you didnt "figure out" how to use biotics. people who watched your vids are only being more confused on what an adept can do. first off, im not too concerned about those people that didnt realize charging into a crowd would get them killed, or that cryo ammo wasnt any good. i wouldnt want to argue with something as noticable as "trying to live after charging into 5 enemies." but, here i am.

about you thinking youve "figured out biotics." ...theres no video ive seen with someone using throw, and actually throwing someone with protections. ive seen somone point out a vid of spamming pull to create staggers, but youbve got to be kidding me if im playing an adept and relying on 3 pulls, and half second staggers. id rather not play, which i dont. anyways, youve obviously played the game alot. your great at knowing exactly what corner enemies are going to run out of, your great at picking the right squadmates, your great at combining multiple vids with adepts with different bonus powers and weapons which is very deceiving.......your vids have done nothing to convince me that "biotics work on insanity." weve all played insanity. weve all spammed warp and singularity, and weve all hated looking at any collored bar that wasnt red.

your making out the idea of changing enemy protections to be black and white, when its not. please show me one time, anywhere in this entire bioware forum, where someones advocating for ALL biotics to work ALL the time.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...



If you really believe those minor CC effects from ammo can compete with biotics, show us.

I dont have anything to show other actually did a long time ago:



(soldiers solo in dantius tower)



Reliable enough.Lasting long enough.


And of course,biotics are always reliable,right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUw0gdwZqmw

Pull failed,enemy just glowing blue. This isnt exactly an exeption.

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 mai 2011 - 04:36 .

[Cancer Puppet]

@iOnlySignIn

I'm not proposing that there be no visual indication of enemy protections, but the floating bars are like the hp gauges on a turn based rpg. Whatever else ME may be, it is not that. And really, I'm not even suggesting that a new system to indicate enemy protections not be clear and easy to understand. All I am saying is that I'd like it to look like something a cyborg with high-tech space goggles might presumably see, instead of something out of a video game.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Boz, the only tweaks I've seen you suggest "make singularity reliable/slightly better" (which continues your Need to know exactly what happens ethos)

To me thats a bit of stagnation and not very creative, there is a middle ground between ME1 adept and ME2 adept.....lets hope ME3 finds it

[Tony Gunslinger]

tonnactus wrote...


I dont have anything to show other actually did a long time ago:



(soldiers solo in dantius tower)



Reliable enough.Lasting long enough.

And guess what you need to do in order to use these ammo powers? That's right: shoot through protections and using up a cooldown with your special power.

How's that better or worse than and an Adept using weapons + Throw/Pull that costs you only 1.7 sec cooldown? Throw/Pull also have area effects. In 1.7 secs, I can CC anyone within a 3m radius. The soldier is switching weapons and using guns to finish everybody off before the CC effects wear down, whereas the adept have more options under longer CC durations. And my Vanguard is displaying how effective SMGs are at stripping shields in order for Cryo ammo to kick in. Both of these characters are giving up OSOK and kill speed in favor of CC and dealing with protections, which what Adepts and Engineers are already better at.

And of course,biotics are always reliable,right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUw0gdwZqmw

Pull failed,enemy just glowing blue. This isnt exactly an exeption.

Drone fails, Neural Shock fails, Flashbang fails, cryo ammo /cryo blast fails, cryo/incendiary/disruptor ammo CC effects are random chances, so they're not guarantees. This isn’t only a biotic issue.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 27 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Boz wrote
The complaining about biotics endured; I didn't have any problem using biotics with my Adept so I decided to record and post videos to show others how I played, hoping my videos would have the same effect on others like those Vanguard vids had on me.

This means that your vids still dont convince people that biotics mechanics in ME2 is fine as opposed to someone who post vids about Vanguard.

Boz wrote:
There is still a lot of complaining - mostly because of ignorance

@Boz: I hate this line. How long will you understand that the problem of adept is not about killing speed or Insanity is HARDER for Adept than Vanguard, Infiltrator, vv...., but the way you beat the game via Adept. People have many ways to finish the game, do these ways come to satisfaction??? You can try to play Solder and take Stasis as bonus power, and clean the level very fast, but does it feel right??
Let me make it clear. When i watched your vid about the Shockwave Adept (www.youtube.com/watch), while very amusing, still AWKWARD in term of gameplay. It is just like after trying shooting enemy's defense down (you always end up shooting defense since defense-stripping power not available all the time), you use cyro blast on your single target, and then try to use concussive shot to shatter frozen enemy. The result is fun to watch, but THE EFFORT IS NOT, you just have wasted the two powers on just SINGLE enemy and HOPE target will be shattered, and one power has terrible cooldown (concussive shot - 12 secs), and there are still DOZEN of guys shooting at you.
Shockwave in your vid is completely a finisher, no more.
The same goes for pull/throw/pull+throw combo

Modifié par ComputerEnthusiast, 27 mai 2011 - 07:46 .

[DieBySword]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
...

wait a tick here boz. you didnt "figure out" how to use biotics. people who watched your vids are only being more confused on what an adept can do. first off, im not too concerned about those people that didnt realize charging into a crowd would get them killed, or that cryo ammo wasnt any good. i wouldnt want to argue with something as noticable as "trying to live after charging into 5 enemies." but, here i am.

about you thinking youve "figured out biotics." ...theres no video ive seen with someone using throw, and actually throwing someone with protections. ive seen somone point out a vid of spamming pull to create staggers, but youbve got to be kidding me if im playing an adept and relying on 3 pulls, and half second staggers. id rather not play, which i dont. anyways, youve obviously played the game alot. your great at knowing exactly what corner enemies are going to run out of, your great at picking the right squadmates, your great at combining multiple vids with adepts with different bonus powers and weapons which is very deceiving.......your vids have done nothing to convince me that "biotics work on insanity." weve all played insanity. weve all spammed warp and singularity, and weve all hated looking at any collored bar that wasnt red.

your making out the idea of changing enemy protections to be black and white, when its not. please show me one time, anywhere in this entire bioware forum, where someones advocating for ALL biotics to work ALL the time.

Well said mate they want us to post vids off our side but we are discuss here that "we want biotics to work on some protection, not all and be limited if used on a proteced enemie" because as it is now biotics like pull,throw dont work on protected enemies. So concluding they want us to post videos of spamming a shielded mob with a throw

[Tony Gunslinger]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

The complaining about biotics endured; I didn't have any problem using biotics with my Adept so I decided to record and post videos to show others how I played, hoping my videos would have the same effect on others like those Vanguard vids had on me.

This means that your vids still dont convince people that biotics mechanics in ME2 is fine as opposed to someone who post vids about Vanguard.

There is still a lot of complaining - mostly because of ignorance

I hate this line. How long will you understand that the problem of adept is not about killing speed or Insanity is HARDER for Adept than Vanguard, Infiltrator, vv...., but the way you beat the game via Adept. People have many ways to finish the game, do these ways come to satisfaction??? You can try to play Solder and take Stasis as bonus power, and clean the level very fast, but does it feel right??
Let me make it clear. When i watched your vid about the Shockwave Adept (www.youtube.com/watch), while very amusing, still AWKWARD in term of gameplay. It is just like after trying shooting enemy's defense down (you always end up shooting defense since defense-stripping power not available all the time), you use cyro blast on your single target, and then try to use concussive shot to shatter frozen enemy. The result is fun to watch, but THE EFFORT IS NOT, you just have wasted the two powers on just SINGLE enemy and HOPE target will be shattered, and one power has terrible cooldown (concussive shot - 12 secs), and there are still DOZEN of guys shooting at you.
Shockwave in your vid is completely a finisher, no more.
The same goes for pull/throw/pull+throw combo

Killing speed is the CORE thing that people complain about classes because it's the easiest indicator of 'success'. Vanguard was originally regarded as the worst class until people showed by vids that it can kill the fastest. The difference is, Vanguard's kill rate depends on skill, whereas crowd-controlling with powers is about tactics. And tactics is harder to demonstrate and explain to people, especially when their minds are already set on 'kill speed.'

Why is crowd control such a big deal? I can OSOK with my Widow

That's great, except that you're camping in one spot while your team is soaking up the damage. And then you complain that squadmates are stupid and that you run out of ammo.

In the same time you're killing one person, you could also CC a group of people and take less damage, allowing you to move, your squad takes less damage, and opens up more options.

These are just two different ways of playing. So yes, pissing on Adepts, Engineers, crowd controlling tactics, is out of ignorance, and then complain about how everything else (protections, squadmate AI, ammo clips) isn't evolved around OSOK is the byproduct of that ignorance.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 27 mai 2011 - 06:27 .

[KainrycKarr]

Bluko wrote...

 Yeah the defensive layers kind of put a hinderance on the Biotic abilities (except Warp). The 3 Combat classes work well enough. Although now that anyone can use any weapon it should be less of a problem to tear down defenses. I think the Devs stated though that they want all players to use their weapons and not just spam powers like in ME1. I'm fine with this.

However Biotic and Tech classes also posses the strongest abilities for taking down Shields, Armor, and Barriers. So it's not like they are gimped. You just have to choose do you want to take down defenses faster or finish enemies off faster?

I dunno. Personally I would like to see all enemies have Shields again like they should. Seriously everyone is suppose to have shields. Although for LOKI Mechs and Husks it's reasonable to assume they wouldn't. What I would have done is...

Shields
Offer additional protection, and recharge after a period of time. They do not stop Biotics.

Armor
Offers additional protection and negates the effects of most Biotics. (Throw, Pull, and Singularity)

Barriers
Offers additional protection, regenerate, and negates the effects of all Biotics.

Basically:
Biotics > Shields
Tech > Armor
Combat > Barriers

I like this.

[KainrycKarr]

It's not that I think biotics suck. It's that I think they're rendered a bit redundant, after all it's been said, once you've taken down the barriers/shields with guns, the enemy is already pretty much dead, so what's the point of the powers?

Biotics work, and are fun to use, but it would nice if the advantages/disadvantages between weapons and powers were defined a little better.

[aimlessgun]

Dave666 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Well Borz has some vids. If people arguing with him can post some vids where their methods are more effective, but they still think that the Adept is gimped, I'd like to see it

Posts like this make me literally want to scream.  What, so because we haven't created video's we don't have a clue?

I don't remember seeing any video's from Bioware on how to get through a certain level with a certain class, so does that mean that Bioware doesn't have a clue how to play them?

For all you know those posting here are so exceptional that they make even Boz look like an amateur.

For myself, I'm in no way exceptional, I can get through the levels on Insanity with any class without any difficulty, but I'd bet that there are those who can do it faster.

Just because people like Boz feel that a class is fine does not in any way invalidate what others feel about said class.  We have all played through the same levels and had the same things happen, we have simply reached a different conclusion from our experiences.

It depends on what kind of discussion we're having. 

If you say "I don't think adept is fun" then I can't argue with that. 

Some people are saying "I think adepts are a gimped class". I can argue with that, because that perception is easily created by someone not being good at the game. 

Games should be balanced for high level play. That's the only reasonable standard. 

And I'm not saying someone without a video doesn't have a clue. I don't have an adept video. I'm saying we seem to be talking past each other, with hugely different perceptions of the game, and without videos to see how you play an adept, it's frankly impossible to understand why. 

For the record, I do kind of want to make a quick vid just for the purposes of arguing in this thread. Maybe in 3 weeks after the term is over...but nobody will care by then 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 27 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

about you thinking youve "figured out biotics." ...theres no video ive seen with someone using throw, and actually throwing someone with protections. ive seen somone point out a vid of spamming pull to create staggers, but youbve got to be kidding me if im playing an adept and relying on 3 pulls, and half second staggers. id rather not play, which i dont. anyways, youve obviously played the game alot. your great at knowing exactly what corner enemies are going to run out of, your great at picking the right squadmates, your great at combining multiple vids with adepts with different bonus powers and weapons which is very deceiving.......your vids have done nothing to convince me that "biotics work on insanity." weve all played insanity. weve all spammed warp and singularity, and weve all hated looking at any collored bar that wasnt red.

Shepard cannot fly - Throw doesn't throw enemies who have protection.

But if you want to see a video of someone who modded the game to make it 'harder' (so (s)he says) > powers work through protection, enemies have more shields and health (+ regen) to 'compensate'. It's poor gameplay though, the player doesn't use biotic powers effectively (casting ED, wasting the (rare) Singularity, doesn't use ledges, only non-stop Pull-Warp with the whole lot on half the cooldown for good measure) - check the YT description for a full overview: 

www.youtube.com/watch

Compare that to the normal Adept who doesn't use warpbombs but the almighty Shockwave instead:

www.youtube.com/watch

Which one does look more like the Adept you prefer?

What do bonus powers, weapons and squadmates have to do with Adepts? Everyone uses them - I never heard you say anything like this about all the other classes. Are Adepts not allowed to use weapons, squadmates and bonus powers?

your making out the idea of changing enemy protections to be black and white, when its not. please show me one time, anywhere in this entire bioware forum, where someones advocating for ALL biotics to work ALL the time.

It's what you're saying in almost every post. And I have explained a hundred times that having Heavy Pull - for example - work through defenses breaks the game. Not spamming Pull all the time = massively gimping yourself, Pull would become 5x more powerful than ARush. No thanks.

[Ahglock]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...


Killing speed is the CORE thing that people complain about classes because it's the easiest indicator of 'success'. Vanguard was originally regarded as the worst class until people showed by vids that it can kill the fastest. The difference is, Vanguard's kill rate depends on skill, whereas crowd-controlling with powers is about tactics. And tactics is harder to demonstrate and explain to people, especially when their minds are already set on 'kill speed.'

Why is crowd control such a big deal? I can OSOK with my Widow

That's great, except that you're camping in one spot while your team is soaking up the damage. And then you complain that squadmates are stupid and that you run out of ammo.

In the same time you're killing one person, you could also CC a group of people and take less damage, allowing you to move, your squad takes less damage, and opens up more options.

These are just two different ways of playing. So yes, pissing on Adepts, Engineers, crowd controlling tactics, is out of ignorance, and then complain about how everything else (protections, squadmate AI, ammo clips) isn't evolved around OSOK is the byproduct of that ignorance.

  Do we really have to stoop to snide insults in order to talk about an issue?  This goes to both sides or the argument.  People can have honest disagreements about something without being ignorant on the subject.  

Anyways since both sides seem to want to argue the extreme position I think both are failing hard.  Do adepts have extra hurdles to jump through and therefore are probably not perfectly balanced?  Sure.  Is the degree of problem as large as people want to make it seem?  No.  

Hell some of the proponents of adepts basically prove the point when they aregue about how awesome the adept is.  With using all the powers, picking the right squadmates, and using those squadmates powers well they match or slighly beat classes like the soldier when they just spam their main power and ignore their squadmates.  While the adept to me is a lot more fun, I don't try to pretend that  they are perfectly balanced with the rest of the classes.  

On the non-extreme side I can understand the complaint that adepts have extra hurdles in order to exercise their role.  If DPS classes had to get rid of shields in order to DPS would they be happy with their role even if all they had to do was bring a engineer with them to strip defenses?  If singularity was less buggy and had a bit more umph to it I suspect a lot of compalints would be lessened, as currently that is the adepts method of perfomring its role from the get go of a fight.  

excuse the spelling and grammar errors I am too lazy to fix what ever my dyslexia and bad typing caused and I did not immediately notice.

Modifié par Ahglock, 27 mai 2011 - 07:41 .

[CajNatalie]

For Heavy biotics to work through defenses, you just need less spamtastic cooldowns.
Problem solved. People get to use biotics through defenses, but they can't spam them every 2 seconds and have to pick their targets for CC.

To be honest, I can't understand how biotics are so spamtastic... I understand it's part of the attempted balance that bioware did, but it doesn't make much sense. I'd prefer better effectiveness with significantly longer cooldowns. The specifics I'm in no position to dictate or design, but the system right now contradicts the idea of biotics being prevented from spammage due to the so called strain and results in strange plot-holes such as a shield designed to stop extreme-velocity projectiles only somehow blocking biotics (also the fact that shields absorb melee damage bothers me, too).

Modifié par CajNatalie, 27 mai 2011 - 07:44 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Killing speed is the CORE thing that people complain about classes because it's the easiest indicator of 'success'. Vanguard was originally regarded as the worst class until people showed by vids that it can kill the fastest. The difference is, Vanguard's kill rate depends on skill, whereas crowd-controlling with powers is about tactics. And tactics is harder to demonstrate and explain to people, especially when their minds are already set on 'kill speed.'

wrong. FUN is the core thing that people are complaining about with classes. killing speed means nothing to me if im not playing that class to its fullest potential, which is its funnest. the complaints about the soldier killing faster then the adept are minumal.

please, go ahead and define what exactly is an adepts tactics on insanity to me.

[ComputerEnthusiast]

Let's talk about Boz's pull/throw/pull+throw in details.
First, i must admit that pull/throw is very usefull if you follow aggressive style. Pull/Throw cant take enemy out of fight for a reasonable amount of time with very short cooldown which is very important when pursuing this style since the less enemies fighting at you, the more chance you can survive. But i am pretty sure that many people cannot follow this style since it's very risky (easy to die). Vanguard less suffers from this since you dont have to MANAGE 8 differents hot keys for powers and still control the mouse.
So people tend to play adept defensively. With this style:
- throw is bad if not used for instant-killing since throw just push enemy farther from you which means it's more difficult to shoot.
- pull is awesome because it's duration is long and pull make it easy to line up shots and also prepare for wrap bomb. But for defensive style, pull is just comparable to singularity in lesser extent. Why, because singularity can lock protected enemies while pull cannot, once enemies's defense are down, singularity's float effect kicks in, which means you dont have to cast another power. The trade-off is low speed and a bit longer cooldown, which doesnt affect much defensive style. So the use of pull is OPTIONAL.
-shockwave: bad already. I doesnt need to tell you more.

About instant-killing of pull/throw/pull+throw:
Here is my previous quote

ComputerEnthusiast wrote:

Boz wrote:
Throw can be aimed, Warp explosions are not controllable.

yeah,
but it comes at a price. Throw can be aimed but it is more difficult to
AIM if target is not isolated, for example in a group of protected and
unprotected enemies close to each other, or especially if target is
moving. And if you use throw not for instant kill or escape situation,
you are just wasting your cooldown
Wrap explosion, on the other hand,
though not controllable, but it ensures a great hit on enemies since it
has large radius which means you dont have to worry so much about
accuracy

So after your EFFORT OF SHOOTING/STRIPPING DEFENSE you have to WORRY ABOUT:
- Is the current enviroment/level has ledges, holes or whatever to remove enemy off map. If not, no use.
- a CAREFULL AIM to make sure target flies to expected location. It is much more difficult if target is moving in group of both protected and unprotected ones and it is safer when there are only 2, 3 enemies left. But at that time, it doesnt matter what your method is.
- RELIABLITY. Sometime, you can throw klixen, krogan to sky high, the other time it's pretty low, althouth you already aimed down their feet and they had been rag-dolled. So throwing enemy off map also require a little of luck. To maximize the chance of removing enemy offmap, do you need pull+throw? And if being used on single target (you dont have much chance to use against group), is is NECESSARY to use the two powers combined with previous defense-stripping power/shooting effort just to TAKE DOWN single target???????
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Boz: So Boz, you failed to convince me that throw/pull or whatever methods besides singularity/wrap explosion is worth investing and SATISFYING

Please note that i am not talking about speed/insanity hard for adept. It is the way i play Adept bothers me.

Modifié par ComputerEnthusiast, 27 mai 2011 - 07:47 .

[MELTOR13]

I think ME2 has a pretty solid balance between biotics being totally gimped or completely overpowered. In ME1, you can keep an entire room of mooks suspended for eternity. ME2 requires a more deft touch, something that some of you obviously don't have ("hurr durr Adepts can only spam warp and singularity on harder difficulties").

The current system isn't perfect, but I think it's pretty solid. Having biotics work through protections would require either A) much longer cooldowns, which causes all kinds of 'global cooldown' problems, among other things (killing the speed of the game), or nerfing the Adept in some other form, which would lead to a discussion much like this.

It's not really that the Adept has been nerfed in ME2, just that enemies have been buffed, IMO. You can still wreak serious havoc with an Adept, even on Insanity (and without throwing out a warp or Singularity ever 5 seconds), you just have to be a little more tactical about it than the ME1 strategy, which consisted of 'use every power on my bar' and then 'wait for cooldowns'. Rinse. Repeat.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

I dont have anything to show other actually did a long time ago:



(soldiers solo in dantius tower)



Reliable enough.Lasting long enough.

And of course,biotics are always reliable,right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUw0gdwZqmw

Pull failed,enemy just glowing blue. This isnt exactly an exeption.

Soldier: has to switch weapons (only a couple weapons can be used to one-shot-freeze enemies); activate ARush (duration + cooldown = ~5 seconds before power become available again); aim and shoot every enemy (~1 second per enemy); switch weapons again; shoot to kill every enemy one at a time.

Adept: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

And this example comes from someone who's saying the Adept is underpowered compared to Soldiers.

What has a bug which affects over a dozen powers has to do with reliability? It's like saying Sentinels are unreliable because when you played one, you experienced a CTD.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

about you thinking youve "figured out biotics." ...theres no video ive seen with someone using throw, and actually throwing someone with protections. ive seen somone point out a vid of spamming pull to create staggers, but youbve got to be kidding me if im playing an adept and relying on 3 pulls, and half second staggers. id rather not play, which i dont. anyways, youve obviously played the game alot. your great at knowing exactly what corner enemies are going to run out of, your great at picking the right squadmates, your great at combining multiple vids with adepts with different bonus powers and weapons which is very deceiving.......your vids have done nothing to convince me that "biotics work on insanity." weve all played insanity. weve all spammed warp and singularity, and weve all hated looking at any collored bar that wasnt red.

Shepard cannot fly - Throw doesn't throw enemies who have protection.

But if you want to see a video of someone who modded the game to make it 'harder' (so (s)he says) > powers work through protection, enemies have more shields and health (+ regen) to 'compensate'. It's poor gameplay though, the player doesn't use biotic powers effectively (casting ED, wasting the (rare) Singularity, doesn't use ledges, only non-stop Pull-Warp with the whole lot on half the cooldown for good measure) - check the YT description for a full overview: 

www.youtube.com/watch

Compare that to the normal Adept who doesn't use warpbombs but the almighty Shockwave instead:

www.youtube.com/watch

Which one does look more like the Adept you prefer?

i want neither. just two bad examples of trying to make a game more difficult.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

your
making out the idea of changing enemy protections to be black and
white, when its not. please show me one time, anywhere in this entire
bioware forum, where someones advocating for ALL biotics to work ALL the
time.

It's what you're saying in almost every post. And
I have explained a hundred times that having Heavy Pull - for example -
work through defenses breaks the game. Not spamming Pull all the time =
massively gimping yourself, Pull would become 5x more powerful than
ARush. No thanks.

if pull had a reduced cooldown, duration, or its effectiveness relied on the direction youve evolved pull into, then no, pull wouldnt be better then an ability like AR.

im not here to say "make pull field work on shielded enemies." im talking about ME3 and how bioware is going to try to challenge my adepts gameplay whether im playing casual or insanity.

[Cloaking_Thane]

I wouldnt even mind if they retained their shields if throw for example moved them back an observable distance/ staggered them for 1-2 seconds or longer (throw force similar to getting your bell rung)

[ComputerEnthusiast]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Killing speed is the CORE thing that people complain about classes because it's the easiest indicator of 'success'. Vanguard was originally regarded as the worst class until people showed by vids that it can kill the fastest. The difference is, Vanguard's kill rate depends on skill, whereas crowd-controlling with powers is about tactics. And tactics is harder to demonstrate and explain to people, especially when their minds are already set on 'kill speed.'

wrong. FUN is the core thing that people are complaining about with classes. killing speed means nothing to me if im not playing that class to its fullest potential, which is its funnest. the complaints about the soldier killing faster then the adept are minumal.

please, go ahead and define what exactly is an adepts tactics on insanity to me.

Aggreed, some people just dont understand that complaints about classes mean nothing in regard to killing speed.