278 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

I dont have anything to show other actually did a long time ago:



(soldiers solo in dantius tower)



Reliable enough.Lasting long enough.

And of course,biotics are always reliable,right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUw0gdwZqmw

Pull failed,enemy just glowing blue. This isnt exactly an exeption.

Soldier: has to switch weapons (only a couple weapons can be used to one-shot-freeze enemies); activate ARush (duration + cooldown = ~5 seconds before power become available again); aim and shoot every enemy (~1 second per enemy); switch weapons again; shoot to kill every enemy one at a time.

Adept: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

And this example comes from someone who's saying the Adept is underpowered compared to Soldiers.

What has a bug which affects over a dozen powers has to do with reliability? It's like saying Sentinels are unreliable because when you played one, you experienced a CTD.

boz, your trying to compare AR to pull.

your losing it.

[Bozorgmehr]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Boz, the only tweaks I've seen you suggest "make singularity reliable/slightly better" (which continues your Need to know exactly what happens ethos)

To me thats a bit of stagnation and not very creative, there is a middle ground between ME1 adept and ME2 adept.....lets hope ME3 finds it

I've told you how I think about random effects - I don't like them. It's one of the things that bothers me with Singularity (that it's not entirely clear what one will do to the enemies nearby).

I believe the ME2 Adept is better in every way compared to ME1; moving back would be worse than stagnation in my book. I still don't fully understand how you would like to see the Adept class. Are they lacking in CC? Are their powers poorly balanced? Should weapons be more or less important (remember you have to shoot 10x as much in ME1 than in ME2)?

[MELTOR13]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

if pull had a reduced cooldown, duration, or its effectiveness relied on the direction youve evolved pull into, then no, pull wouldnt be better then an ability like AR.

im not here to say "make pull field work on shielded enemies." im talking about ME3 and how bioware is going to try to challenge my adepts gameplay whether im playing casual or insanity.

If pull worked on protected enemies, but the duration was shortened or the cooldown was lengthened, then everyone would just come complain about how 'Pull doesn't last long enough' or 'Pull's cooldown is too long!'

The problem with all this arguing is that we have no idea how BioWare plans to implement changes (if they do make changes at all) for biotics...so the argument here is essentially moot until some more details emerge. 

[Bozorgmehr]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

This means that your vids still dont convince people that biotics mechanics in ME2 is fine as opposed to someone who post vids about Vanguard.

Those videos are not to convince people - there are a lot of folks, right here in this thread, who are not interested in how to adapt to Insanity and still get the most out of the Adept's powers. They want biotics to handle everything and consider the use of your squad and weapons to be biotic blasphemy - I only try to demonstrate what biotics are capable of - which is quite a lot imo. I'm, however, not a missionary trying to force anyone into anything.

There are also a lot of people who don't like those non-stop Charge videos; they like Charge, but feel underpowered if they try to use biotic powers (Vanguards are part-biotics after all, not designated berserkers only).

This has more to do with perception than anything else.

I hate this line. How long will you understand that the problem of adept is not about killing speed or Insanity is HARDER for Adept than Vanguard, Infiltrator, vv...., but the way you beat the game via Adept. People have many ways to finish the game, do these ways come to satisfaction??? You can try to play Solder and take Stasis as bonus power, and clean the level very fast, but does it feel right??
Let me make it clear. When i watched your vid about the Shockwave Adept (www.youtube.com/watch), while very amusing, still AWKWARD in term of gameplay. It is just like after trying shooting enemy's defense down (you always end up shooting defense since defense-stripping power not available all the time), you use cyro blast on your single target, and then try to use concussive shot to shatter frozen enemy. The result is fun to watch, but THE EFFORT IS NOT, you just have wasted the two powers on just SINGLE enemy and HOPE target will be shattered, and one power has terrible cooldown (concussive shot - 12 secs), and there are still DOZEN of guys shooting at you.
Shockwave in your vid is completely a finisher, no more.
The same goes for pull/throw/pull+throw combo

A lot is personal preference, I think it's a good thing you can play the game in so many different ways - which way is the funniest is up to the player. Some like to kill fast, others like to play with enemies first. Some like to shotgun enemies in the face, others prefer sniping at range. I can't tell you which way feels right - that's up to you

I don't understand what you believe awkward there; it's a matter of teamwork. The main thing about that vid was to show Shockwave - which is considered utterly worthless on Insanity (including me, before giving it a try) - can be pretty effective and fun to watch. I picked Garrus to handle shields, and Jack to Pull enemies before Shep fires a Shockwave for extra bang (roles can be switch to have Jack SW while Shep uses Sing or Pull); the GPS is the ultimate anti-shield weapon which will be useful against the Blue Suns you'll be fighting on that mission. It's a simple strategy / plan.

There are two things needed to be done there; remove protections so you can use biotics to CC and kill enemies. Overload and weapons are used to drop shields, biotics to kill. I can't see what's awkward about that.

Cryo Blast and CS are not related to Adepts, it's fun to freeze-shatter enemies though - but you'll be better off using melee, Throw, Slam or Shockwave to shatter, they have shorter cooldowns.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 27 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[Bozorgmehr]

ComputerEnthusiast wrote...

Let's talk about Boz's pull/throw/pull+throw in details.
First, i must admit that pull/throw is very usefull if you follow aggressive style. Pull/Throw cant take enemy out of fight for a reasonable amount of time with very short cooldown which is very important when pursuing this style since the less enemies fighting at you, the more chance you can survive. But i am pretty sure that many people cannot follow this style since it's very risky (easy to die). Vanguard less suffers from this since you dont have to MANAGE 8 differents hot keys for powers and still control the mouse.

So using more than one power all day long is a bad thing? It's what makes the Adept so much fun to me; you have options and using powers at the wrong moment or on the wrong enemy has consequences. Using powers like ARush, Cloak and Tech Armor is a no-brainer, they're buffs only and have no effect on the enemy. I don't like classes that rely on one power only - it's the opposite of playing a rpg-ish power/abilities - shooter hybrid imo.

So people tend to play adept defensively. With this style:
- throw is bad if not used for instant-killing since throw just push enemy farther from you which means it's more difficult to shoot.
- pull is awesome because it's duration is long and pull make it easy to line up shots and also prepare for wrap bomb. But for defensive style, pull is just comparable to singularity in lesser extent. Why, because singularity can lock protected enemies while pull cannot, once enemies's defense are down, singularity's float effect kicks in, which means you dont have to cast another power. The trade-off is low speed and a bit longer cooldown, which doesnt affect much defensive style. So the use of pull is OPTIONAL.
-shockwave: bad already. I doesnt need to tell you more.

Playing defensively has nothing to do with the Adept; it's your choice to play like that. It's true for all classes

- Throwing enemies away from your positions can be the difference between life and death; Krogan, Geth Hunters and Destroyers, Husk (Abominations), LOKI, FENRIS, Varren, pyros, Vanguards are deadly at close range, but harmless when they're far away.
- Using Pull on enemies with protection is pointless if you have Singularity available; against enemies who've lost protection, Pull is the better option (better cd, duration, and speed); Pull can be directed to pull enemies off ledges and/or towards their palls to be used as a weapon (warp bomb); every power and every weapon in ME2 is optional.
- shockwave is awesome below Hardcore; it's pretty bad above - there are other powers in ME2 who are equally bad or worse. Remember the game is balanced on Normal, not Insanity.

So after your EFFORT OF SHOOTING/STRIPPING DEFENSE you have to WORRY ABOUT:
- Is the current enviroment/level has ledges, holes or whatever to remove enemy off map. If not, no use.
- a CAREFULL AIM to make sure target flies to expected location. It is much more difficult if target is moving in group of both protected and unprotected ones and it is safer when there are only 2, 3 enemies left. But at that time, it doesnt matter what your method is.
- RELIABLITY. Sometime, you can throw klixen, krogan to sky high, the other time it's pretty low, althouth you already aimed down their feet and they had been rag-dolled. So throwing enemy off map also require a little of luck. To maximize the chance of removing enemy offmap, do you need pull+throw? And if being used on single target (you dont have much chance to use against group), is is NECESSARY to use the two powers combined with previous defense-stripping power/shooting effort just to TAKE DOWN single target???????

Stripping defense is an important aspect of the game regardless which class you play; powers behave differently depending on enemy status. The whole barrier/shield/armor/health system is not meant to annoy Adepts, it's meant to give meaning to every power. Other stuff like effects and cooldown are used to balance powers. Removing shields makes Overload, ED and Disruptor Ammo redundant; removing armor makes all inferno powers, -ammo, AP ammo, and, to a lesser extent, Warp (Ammo) and Reave close to useless. Without this system there isn't much remaining in terms of gameplay. The question why this system affects the Adept's powers moreso than it does with Soldiers - when difficulty level is raised - is a completely different matter.

- using the terrain to your advantage is as ancient as war itself; those who did usually beat those who didn't.
- targeting enemies with powers is easier than shooting; shooting a moving target while you're moving yourself is very hard; using a power isn't. I don't see what the number of enemies remaining has to with anything, and I'm baffled hearing you say 2-3 enemies are as good as death regardless what you do. My experience on Insanity is that one enemy (with only 1 HP left) can kill you very fast, every single enemy matters (some more than others).
- Throws effect is a little random, yes, but physical effect always are. It's great to toss enemies off the map, but it doesn't always work.
What you're forgetting here is the cooldown, Throw will be ready in no time; a reliable damage power like Warp isn't. Dealing with named Klixen who have more than 50% health cannot be killed by a single warpbomb. It will do good damage, but Klixen will be on its feets attacking you before you can use powers again. Throw will be ready long before Klixen can get up, i.e Throw will ensure Klixen will be powerless - Warp doesn't.

@Boz: So Boz, you failed to convince me that throw/pull or whatever methods besides singularity/wrap explosion is worth investing and SATISFYING

Please note that i am not talking about speed/insanity hard for adept. It is the way i play Adept bothers me.

If you thing warpboms are satisfying, more power to you. I'm not trying to convince you, but I'm glad to hear you say speed isn't the only thing taken into account comparing classes.

[DieBySword]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Shepard cannot fly - Throw doesn't throw enemies who have protection.

But if you want to see a video of someone who modded the game to make it 'harder' (so (s)he says) > powers work through protection, enemies have more shields and health (+ regen) to 'compensate'. It's poor gameplay though, the player doesn't use biotic powers effectively (casting ED, wasting the (rare) Singularity, doesn't use ledges, only non-stop Pull-Warp with the whole lot on half the cooldown for good measure) - check the YT description for a full overview: 

The thing is noone wants biotic to go back to the OP state of ME1 and work even on 3 protection bar enemies. We want biotics to work on some protections and not on others,and even if they work they should have different effects (lesser ones than the orginal on an unprotected enemie). Its a bit unfair gun centered classes have no problem with protections when certain biotics abilitys are tied to only one layer and other dont work on anything that had even 1 layer except health. Noone is saying biotics dont work, they do and do fine but if you need to strip naked your enemies to launch a biotic attack like throw then it becomes a chore

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldier:
has to switch weapons (only a couple weapons can be used to
one-shot-freeze enemies); activate ARush (duration + cooldown = ~5
seconds before power become available again); aim and shoot every enemy
(~1 second per enemy); switch weapons again; shoot to kill every enemy
one at a time.

Adept: uses Pull Field; and (1.6 seconds later) Warp > done.

And this example comes from someone who's saying the Adept is underpowered compared to Soldiers.

What
has a bug which affects over a dozen powers has to do with reliability?
It's like saying Sentinels are unreliable because when you played one,
you experienced a CTD.

Your fogeting that the adept has to strip the protections off those 5 enemies, probably use a member ability and have those 5 mooks real close to launch the pull field. Its not really that sweet as you tell it to be

Modifié par DieBySword, 27 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[Murmillos]

While ME1 did have the issues where area lift would lift the entire room for a good 2 minutes and you picked people off like really large flies, but ME2 swung to hard in the other direction were left with only ONE talent that worked for getting rid of protection with the rest being mostly useless, unless you were looking for a lift/warp combo to damage other enemies.

Not saying we need ME1 skills - but having lift and throw do something else other then nothing would be nice come ME3

[Bozorgmehr]

DieBySword wrote...

The thing is noone wants biotic to go back to the OP state of ME1 and work even on 3 protection bar enemies. We want biotics to work on some protections and not on others,and even if they work they should have different effects (lesser ones than the orginal on an unprotected enemie). Its a bit unfair gun centered classes have no problem with protections when certain biotics abilitys are tied to only one layer and other dont work on anything that had even 1 layer except health. Noone is saying biotics dont work, they do and do fine but if you need to strip naked your enemies to launch a biotic attack like throw then it becomes a chore

Biotic powers already work on some protection while others do no - Reave, Warp are great against armor and barriers; Stasis will hold everything in place; Singularity drains all defenses and holds enemies doing so. Pull, Throw, SW, Dominate and Slam only work on health. 4 work against defenses, 5 do not - not such a bad compromise imo.

If you have a better idea to ensure some sort of balance between biotic powers, please share. The way protection affect the other classes is irrelevant; the thing which matters most is to keep a class who has multiple powers available for different enemies / situation and not allowing one power to reduce all the others to junk.

Your fogeting that the adept has to strip the protections off those 5 enemies, probably use a member ability and have those 5 mooks real close to launch the pull field. Its not really that sweet as you tell it to be

I think you should read the original post, coz my reply about the video wasn't about enemies with defenses, it was about the difference between a Soldier's CC and the Adept's after defenses are down. The Soldier in the vid had to strip defenses first before switching to the Carnifex to CC a couple enemies.

[Dave666]

The thing that always gets me is how come a Vangard can Charge an enemy with a protections? Charge is a Biotic ability. How come Vangards don't need to strip defences before they can Charge?

[Bozorgmehr]

Dave666 wrote...

The thing that always gets me is how come a Vangard can Charge an enemy with a protections? Charge is a Biotic ability. How come Vangards don't need to strip defences before they can Charge?

Charge works like Throw only this time Shep him/herself is the projectile; using it against enemies without protection will send them flying like Throw does; protected enemies are staggered, like Throw does. You don't have to strip defenses to use Throw, it only has a stagger effect instead of hurling away the enemy. It is a bit odd that Charge becomes more useful when enemies starting to use protection; it keeps them still and steady for your Vanguard shotgun blast.

[Ace of Dawn]

Dave666 wrote...

The thing that always gets me is how come a Vangard can Charge an enemy with a protections? Charge is a Biotic ability. How come Vangards don't need to strip defences before they can Charge?

Watsonian answer:
You are using it on yourself, with the effects allowing you do what is seen.

Doylist answer:
Because if it worked that way, Charge would not be returning to ME3.

[CajNatalie]

Uh, Boz, when you listed anti-defense biotics, you were including bonus powers in there. You can't put all those in to one adept... at most you'll have Singularity, Warp, & a bonus. But usually just Sing/Warp.
Your point seemed little weakened because of that, I'm afraid.

Dave666 wrote...

The thing that always gets me is how come a Vangard can Charge an enemy with a protections? Charge is a Biotic ability. How come Vangards don't need to strip defences before they can Charge?

This is an awful nitpick.
Charge is cast on the biotic.
The result of collision changes depending on protections, however.

Protection - Enemy Staggers
No Protection - Enemy sent back as if hit by Throw

Basically, Charge = Throw with the caster replacing the biotic blueball



Anyway, on the subject of Shockwave brought up earlier.
Am I the only one who found Shockwave MORE useful than ever on Insanity when I played Vanguard?
I evolved it to Improved Shockwave and owned with it - just by staggering protected enemies.
Personally I think it's the only power other than Singularity that seems to produce significant results with the staggerfail effects of biotics.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 27 mai 2011 - 10:07 .

[Dave666]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

The thing that always gets me is how come a Vangard can Charge an enemy with a protections? Charge is a Biotic ability. How come Vangards don't need to strip defences before they can Charge?

Charge works like Throw only this time Shep him/herself is the projectile; using it against enemies without protection will send them flying like Throw does; protected enemies are staggered, like Throw does. You don't have to strip defenses to use Throw, it only has a stagger effect instead of hurling away the enemy. It is a bit odd that Charge becomes more useful when enemies starting to use protection; it keeps them still and steady for your Vanguard shotgun blast.

My point is that Charge is the core element to Vangard play, without Charge they're nothing more than a gimped Adept with a Shotgun.  Charge is vital and yet Protections do absolutely nothing to hinder this.  For Adepts using Biotic abilities is the core element and yet Protections stop most of them.  A Soldier's core element is gun use, what do protections to to hinder them?  The Infiltrators core element is sniping (yes, they can use other guns, but their passive gives slowdown with Sniper Rifles), what do protections do to hinder sniping?  Sentinels are designed to deal with any protection, so I'll happilly pass on them.  Engineers only really suffer with Barriers, everything else they can deal with but they do feel the effects of protections.

[Dave666]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

The Infiltrators core element is sniping (yes, they can use other guns, but their passive gives slowdown with Sniper Rifles), what do protections do to hinder sniping? 

Widow snipe a full Barriered Eclipse Vanguard without Warp Ammo. Now snipe it againt with Warp Ammo. You'll see the difference.

Stripping defenses is important if and only if your aim is to crowd control instead of to kill. Any class can be built with defense stripping and crowd control in mind, except Soldier.

Infiltrator: Tony Gunslinger's Viper- Improved Cryo Agent with Energy Drain/Flashbang, & Mattock;

Infiltrator: Enhanced Dominate Agent with Improved AI Hacking;

Infiltrator: OniGanon's GPS-Neural Shock CQC Infiltrator;

Vanguard: Reave/Slam Champion with Scimitar built for team Warp Bombs;

Sentinel: thisisme8's Deep Cryo- Heavy Throw "Total Control" build;

Engineer: Deep Cryo Engineer;

Engineer: Enhanced Dominate/Improved AI Hacking Engineer sniper;

Engineer: Neural Shock shotgun Engineer;

Adept: All Adept builds.

And why do we Crowd Control again?  To give us breathing room before we kill them.  For every class the ultimate aim is to kill the enemy.

*Edit* In regards to what you said about protections stopping an outright one shot kill with the Widow, its true, but it leaves the enemy so close to death that its not that much of a hindrance really, is it?  Now imagine that in order to get that one shot kill, the Infiltrator had to completely strip defences first, if there was even the tiniest sliver of protections left then the Headshot wouldn't work.  Now the Infiltrator plays like the Adept.

Modifié par Dave666, 27 mai 2011 - 10:40 .

[Dave666]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

And why do we Crowd Control again?  To give us breathing room before we kill them.  For every class the ultimate aim is to kill the enemy.

*Edit* In regards to what you said about protections stopping an outright one shot kill with the Widow, its true, but it leaves the enemy so close to death that its not that much of a hindrance really, is it?

Some of us (most of the people whose video I just added links to in my previous post, and certainly Mr Boz) do Crowd Control simply for fun, you know. Watch those videos and you'll see. :-) I sometimes prefer to toy with the enemies instead of killing them outright. But Widow headshots are satisfying too, in a different way.

Like Boz pointed out in an earlier post, an enemy with 1 HP can easily kill you within a split second. Not 1S1K Eclipse Vanguards often mean you get one extra Scimitar/Claymore blast to the face that will very likely kill you.

All 3 of those CC Infiltrator builds (Cryo, Dominate/Hack, Neural Shock) play similar to Adept. In fact all the CC builds play similar to each other in terms of tactics. Sometimes players play this way by choice, not because they are forced to. ME2's gameplay design received so much kudos because it provided variety and re-playability. If the ultimate goal of every class and every build is simply to kill with the best gun you have, then it would have been no different from COD.

Question.  Would you say it was fair if in order for the Infiltrator to get OSOK's they had to first completely strip all protections?

[Aimi]

Dave666 wrote...

Question.  Would you say it was fair if in order for the Infiltrator to get OSOK's they had to first completely strip all protections?

If they're stripping protections, it's not one-shot one-kill by definition.

[Dave666]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Question.  Would you say it was fair if in order for the Infiltrator to get OSOK's they had to first completely strip all protections?

It is. And actually, they do.

Like I said, you need Heavy Warp Ammo to strip the Barrier of an Eclipse Vanguard in order to OSOK. Same with Shields on Insanity NG+: you can 1S1K basic Blue Suns troopers without Cloak only if you have Heavy Disruptor Ammo- not even Squad Disruptor Ammo will work until you have like 3 or 4 Sniper upgrades. The only protection Infiltrator's don't need to strip to OSOK is Armor, because all the bolt-action sniper rifles get a +100% armor piercing bonus already.

Now you may say stripping with Ammo powers don't count, but Heavy Disruptor Ammo is 10 talent points, just like Area Overload. And for a Widow Infiltrator it's a better choice than Area Overload because you get a much bigger damage bonus vs. Shields due to the Widow's high damage. Ammo powers exist for a reason, and contrary to what Boz was saying earlier, they can be as powerful and as useful as any active power- you just need a different build.

So yeah, I think the game is largely balanced and fair. Every class deal with the same kind of enemies, in different but similarly effective ways.

Nope, I said completely, as in not even the tinyest sliver of protections left, nothing, nada, zilch.  Just down to Health.

[Dave666]

*Grumble* Stupid double post *Grumble*

Modifié par Dave666, 27 mai 2011 - 11:07 .

[Dave666]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Nope, I said completely, as in not even the tinyest sliver of protections left, nothing, nada, zilch.  Just down to Health.

Sure you do. You strip defense completely and kill the enemy Health too with one Widow shot with the right Ammo power.

And no, this does not make it faster or simpler than Adept, because high damage weapons have very low fire rates. You can fire a Widow shot only once every 2.5 seconds or so (even if you're extremely proficient at quick-scoping) and that kills 1 enemy at maximum. You can strip the Shields off a basic trooper with your SMG in less than 1 second, then you Pull to take them out of the fight which takes 1.6 seconds with full cooldown upgrades. Then you Warp Explode which kills multiple extra enemies within a large blast radius.

Are you deliberately missing the point?  I said that in order to get your Headshots you had to strip all protections first, as in don't strip completely and you do almost no damage whatsoever and basically waste a bullet.  Would that be fair?

Modifié par Dave666, 27 mai 2011 - 11:17 .

[Aimi]

Dave666 wrote...

Are you deliberately missing the point?  I said that in order to get your Headshots you had to strip all protections first, as in don't strip completely and you do almost no damage whatsoever and basically waste a bullet.  Would that be fair?

It would be nonsensical.