1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I saw what KoP did in another thread...you guys should all just be grateful they're only talking about Petrice.

*shudders*

Come on now. Meredith and Orsino are hawt together. 

Of course it was hot.  We were in Hell.

Details, details. 

You know it was sexy. 

[Xilizhra]

'I think its okay to kill people that don't agree with me'. It just doesn't sound good does it?

It helps when you don't believe that death is ever intrinsically just. No one deserves to die, but some people have to for a greater good. The fact that she disagreed with me is irrelevant.

[Rifneno]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Anders was 'able to make use of her' ?  Wow, that's one of the best euphamisms for murder I've ever seen.  So, she didn't take a stand that you agreed with, so it was ok to kill her and a few hundred people in and around the church?  So, your neighbors dog cr*ps on your lawn...you going to 'make use of him' and burn his house down, make sure the rest of the neighborhood understands not to defile your lawn?

Aside from Elthina, the deaths are definitely unfortunate. No one is arguing they all deserved to die (at least that I saw), just Elthina. What we are arguing, however, is that many more lives would be lost if the Chantry's oppression went unopposed even longer.

instead, he guaranteed that the Kirkwall mages would be killed to a man and he validated Meredith's actions.

How many times do we have to go over the logical abomination known as retro-justification? Meh. Regardless, he did not guarantee that. In fact even if Hawke tries to kill every mage in Kirkwall, there are always survivors.

You deal with his monstrous actions euphemistically because you don't want to sound like what Anders became. Don't hide behind doubletalk. You want to support the actions of a murderer, own it. Say it loud. 'I think its okay to kill people that don't agree with me'. It just doesn't sound good does it?

War is hell. It's not just a cliche, it's true. War is brutal and monstrous, nothing like the action movies generally portray it where the good guys don't get their hands dirty and they walk off happily into the sunset at the end. Yes, I do think it's okay to kill people if it's the only way to save countless more from a brutal empire. It's horrible, war always is. But the world isn't always fair.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That might almost make sense of the Chantry was an "evil empire" but it isn't. It isn't even directly in control of any nation, aside from maaaybe Kirkwall. So why isn't OK to say that "holding mages in the Circle is unfortunate but life isn't fair and it's the only way to stop more people from dying"?

Saying that it's OK to do evil as long as it's the lesser undermine's the entire case for mages freedom, because it's the exact reason the Circle of Magi exists. Even if there were no templars hutning mages there would always be some of them who turn to blood magic or become too dangerous to be let go free.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[Xilizhra]

Because it isn't the only way, and is far from the best.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That might almost make sense of the Chantry was an "evil empire" but it isn't. It isn't even directly in control of any nation, aside from maaaybe Kirkwall. So why isn't OK to say that "holding mages in the Circle is unfortunate but life isn't fair and it's the only way to stop more people from dying"?

Because common sense dictates that their system doesn't work?  Most of the abominations we see are because of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules.

And considering the Divine was about to crush Kirkwall for "falling to magic" after her own templars abused the mages into minor rebellions, I'd say "evil empire" fits just fine.

[Agamo45]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That might almost make sense of the Chantry was an "evil empire" but it isn't. It isn't even directly in control of any nation, aside from maaaybe Kirkwall. So why isn't OK to say that "holding mages in the Circle is unfortunate but life isn't fair and it's the only way to stop more people from dying"?

Because common sense dictates that their system doesn't work?  Most of the abominations we see are because of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules.

And considering the Divine was about to crush Kirkwall for "falling to magic" after her own templars abused the mages into minor rebellions, I'd say "evil empire" fits just fine.

We've seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves. You get a magocracy like Tevinter, in which the magisters use their power to crush everyone else under their heels. The magisers need for more bodies and more power fuels the slave trade. I'd say that fits the "evil empire" far better than the Chantry. What the Chantry does is in the best interests of the vast majority of the population.

[Rifneno]

Agamo45 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That might almost make sense of the Chantry was an "evil empire" but it isn't. It isn't even directly in control of any nation, aside from maaaybe Kirkwall. So why isn't OK to say that "holding mages in the Circle is unfortunate but life isn't fair and it's the only way to stop more people from dying"?

Because common sense dictates that their system doesn't work?  Most of the abominations we see are because of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules.

And considering the Divine was about to crush Kirkwall for "falling to magic" after her own templars abused the mages into minor rebellions, I'd say "evil empire" fits just fine.

We've seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves. You get a magocracy like Tevinter, in which the magisters use their power to crush everyone else under their heels. The magisers need for more bodies and more power fuels the slave trade. I'd say that fits the "evil empire" far better than the Chantry. What the Chantry does is in the best interests of the vast majority of the population.

And by that perversion of logic, we should lock up all the Germans or else they'll take over and try to kill all the jews.

Seriously, how do real people believe this stuff?  I get how people in a primitive society with little to no education system can get suckered in by it, but real people in the real world who know real history should know better than this.

[Agamo45]

Rifneno wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That might almost make sense of the Chantry was an "evil empire" but it isn't. It isn't even directly in control of any nation, aside from maaaybe Kirkwall. So why isn't OK to say that "holding mages in the Circle is unfortunate but life isn't fair and it's the only way to stop more people from dying"?

Because common sense dictates that their system doesn't work?  Most of the abominations we see are because of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules.

And considering the Divine was about to crush Kirkwall for "falling to magic" after her own templars abused the mages into minor rebellions, I'd say "evil empire" fits just fine.

We've seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves. You get a magocracy like Tevinter, in which the magisters use their power to crush everyone else under their heels. The magisers need for more bodies and more power fuels the slave trade. I'd say that fits the "evil empire" far better than the Chantry. What the Chantry does is in the best interests of the vast majority of the population.

And by that perversion of logic, we should lock up all the Germans or else they'll take over and try to kill all the jews.

Seriously, how do real people believe this stuff?  I get how people in a primitive society with little to no education system can get suckered in by it, but real people in the real world who know real history should know better than this.

I know my history, which is why I know that not everyone has good intentions. There is evil out there, and it flourishes when naive fools like liberals allow it to. Going back to this fictional universe, power corrupts as they say, and mages have far more power at their fingertips than any normal person could dream of.

[Rifneno]

Agamo45 wrote...

I know my history, which is why I know that not everyone has good intentions. There is evil out there, and it flourishes when naive fools like liberals allow it to. Going back to this fictional universe, power corrupts as they say, and mages have far more power at their fingertips than any normal person could dream of.

Stopped reading when I got to "naive fools like liberals."  Shut up.  Take your political diatribes somewhere else.

[GavrielKay]

Sister Helen wrote...

Just as it makes no sense to get mad at the fabled scorpion who stings the turtle while crossing the river -- it is his nature  -- it makes no sense to get mad at Elthina for being a venerable -- it is her nature.

Then I'll be mad at the Chantry as a counter-productive organization that places itself in charge of many lives and then fails utterly to protect those lives in its care by promoting someone to a position of power who is incapable of using that power to actually prevent atrocities and evil right under her nose.  She could have wanted a peaceful solution with all her delusional heart, but it was never going to happen.  After 10 years, realtiy should have broken through her little wall of venerable-ness and she should have either retired in favor of an active personality or actually done something herself.

[GavrielKay]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Elthina can do nothing about the situation with Meredith without sparking a bigger problem, which is the problem.

Elthina could have offered my mage or rogue Hawke the information necessary to complete a tidy little assassination.  Or she could have used her influence and popularity to put forth a replacement KC and when Meredith predictable went bonkers we could take her out.

[Melca36]

Agamo45 wrote...


I know my history, which is why I know that not everyone has good intentions. There is evil out there, and it flourishes when naive fools like liberals allow it to. Going back to this fictional universe, power corrupts as they say, and mages have far more power at their fingertips than any normal person could dream of.

This is a conversation about a game. PLEASE KEEP REAL LIFE POLITICS OUT OF IT. <_<

[Melca36]

Agamo45 wrote...

We've seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves. You get a magocracy like Tevinter, in which the magisters use their power to crush everyone else under their heels. The magisers need for more bodies and more power fuels the slave trade. I'd say that fits the "evil empire" far better than the Chantry. What the Chantry does is in the best interests of the vast majority of the population.

Assuming all mages want it to be like Tevintor is extremely naive.

There will be plenty of mages who will be fighting against Blood Mages.

[GavrielKay]

Agamo45 wrote...

We've seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves. You get a magocracy like Tevinter, in which the magisters use their power to crush everyone else under their heels. The magisers need for more bodies and more power fuels the slave trade. I'd say that fits the "evil empire" far better than the Chantry. What the Chantry does is in the best interests of the vast majority of the population.

We've seen one empire ruled by mages that is a pretty lousy place to be.  We've also seen a circle run by Templars that is an extremely lousy place to be.  It's just as evil to commit atrocities in the name of "good" as it is to do them in the name of power. 

The Chantry uses its position as the voice of the Maker to demonize mages, keep them prisoner for life and occasionally rape/torture and Tranquil them.  That sounds pretty evil empire to me. 

It is completely against common sense to raise someone in an environment where they are constantly told how cursed they are, how dangerous they are and how everyone knows that they are just an abomination waiting to happen - and then expect them to turn into well adjusted people.  I see absolutely no proof that the current system of abducting mage children from their parents and locking them away saves more lives than it wrecks. 

When you talk about "protecting the innocents" why don't the abducted mage children get counted among them?  Every innocent deserves protection, even if they happen to be born a mage.  The thousands of mage lives destroyed by the Chantry are almost entirely innocent lives.  Those mages had just as much right to safety and freedom as the non-mages you're supposedly protecting.

Edit:  grammar

Modifié par GavrielKay, 25 mai 2011 - 06:47 .

[Melca36]

Another thing that annoyed me in the game is you see this random NPC Chantry Sister walking back and forth along Lowtown asking for donations.

The Chantry seems to have no problems asking for money from all socioeconomic classes and not give much in return.

[Sister Helen]

The most powerful moment in the game was the cutscene where the templars are storming the semi-barricaded mage area. 

On the first playthrough, I was pro-mage (Freedom from Tyranny! Freedom from Oppression!), and it was horrible, seeing those anonymous figures in metal plate, armed with swords, cutting down scared people, of all ages, in robes. It was a nightmare.

On the second playthrough, I was pro-templar (Protect the Cursed from Themselves and Others! Protect Others from the Cursed!), and the SAME scene was still terrible.  Those were my troops, scared kids really, only clad in metal and faith, going against monsters throwing fireballs from their fingertips, and being cut down.

In this game, both sides are righteous; and both sides have committed atrocities. It is attractive to judge from a distance of two removes, to know the outcome of the events and to condemn an individual (Elthina) for inaction or failing to favor one side over the other.  But the flaw in it is that such a judgment is too simplistic.

---

If you want a modern example:

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission heard witnesses of attrocities that had been committed by both sides - the oppressors and the resistance - and granted and denied amnesty to members of both sides.   Had the Commission only heard witnesses from one side, or granted/denied amnesty to only one side, it would not have been as successful.

Modifié par Sister Helen, 25 mai 2011 - 10:57 .

[vehzeel]

Anders should have placed that magic explosion in the templar hall instead. The grand cleric didn't actively side with anyone, but wanted to protect mages, templars and common folk alike. My opinion is that she was one of few voices of reason in Kirkwall. She realized that oppressing mages could bite the Chantry/templars in the a**, just like she was aware of the dangers of unrestricted wizardry. Her biggest fault was that she didn't share her viewpoints and wisdom with neither the mages nor the templars.

[Rifneno]

Sister Helen wrote...

In this game, both sides are righteous; and both sides have committed atrocities. It is attractive to judge from a distance of two removes, to know the outcome of the events and to condemn an individual (Elthina) for inaction or failing to favor one side over the other.  But the flaw in it is that such a judgment is too simplistic.

It's too "simplistic?" What? That doesn't even make sense. Thousands of people are dead because Elthina turned a blind eye to violent crimes being committed by soldiers under her command. That's all there is to it. Pretty it up however you want, I don't think the piles of corpses cares one way or another what excuse is given on her behalf.

And yes, some on both sides have committed atrocities. But only one has attempted genocide. All of the mages never got together and tried to kill all of the templars. All of the templars DID get together and try to kill all of the mages. The crime of every mage we've seen, Quentin included, is NOTHING compared to what the templars did at the end.

[Scottish TaZeR]

its Pissed me off!


He never told me what he was gonna do! I woud have Nuked the whole of kirkwal if I knew


Naw I was all for it... I live for Chaos... Well done Anders.
The Most annoying thing about that whole section is Sabsation tell you hes gonna come back and kill you. I'm sorry but there should have been an Option to Go 1v1 on his ass and drop him there. I hated that Chantry loving quire boy... Grrrr

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...
Because common sense dictates that their system doesn't work?  Most of the abominations we see are because of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules.

That's debatable really. I'm sure many of them are, but not all of them. And without oversight from a body like templars I'm not convinced it wouldn't be much worse in many places. Especially without a fighting forcein place to hunt down the aboninations that do appear. The other thing is I might not have agreed with Cullen's assesment that "Mages aren't like people" or Fenris' that the mages would all become magisters if given the chance but the fact is that mages are in a different positon that other people. Samson wasn't wrong when he said "back them into a corner and they have options we don't." If mages are allowed completely freedom, then I can't imagine at least some of them won't end up abusing it. And that's the main problem with mages being free, a small number of them can potentially cause havoc with mimimal effort. No matter how well intentioned most of them are, they will never be able to vouch for every single mage that is free. And given that Anders blew up a lot of innocent people just to provoke a war, I have a feeling that my sympathy for a rebellion would fade quickly if they follow his model of resistence. Even if Anders wanted to mages and templars to go to open warfare, what he did was unessesary.

I don't buy the reasoning that "not taking a stand" makes Elthina deserving of execution. You could argue it makes her useless but at the end of the day Anders still killed her for "not helping him." If she is guilty of inaction then fine, but if so she isn't guilty of actively helping the templars against him. Mages don't need to try to make themselves an enemy of everyone like Anders seems to think they should. In fact he probably made the whole situation worse for the mage rebellion.

Rifneno wrote...
And considering the Divine was about to crush Kirkwall for "falling to magic" after her own templars abused the mages into minor rebellions, I'd say "evil empire" fits just fine.

Not really. That just means that the Divine is able to summon soliders for one cause or other. That's powerful certainly, but still a far cry from an "evil empire" with "a thousand years of oppression." The Chantry isn't an evil empire any more than all of Christendom was in the Middle Ages.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2011 - 02:25 .

[Scottish TaZeR]

Religion causes War.

*Hides*

[Plaintiff]

I was pretty ecstatic. Where's the "brofist" dialogue option for when that happens?

It's funny to me how a lot of people think a church is never an acceptable target for violence. The Chantry is responsible for the murder of possibly millions throughout history, done in the name of the Maker. The differences between Chantry abuses and straight-up human sacrifice are purely cosmetic.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So all the people inside are guilty by association of somebody else's crimes?

[Plaintiff]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So all the people inside are guilty by association of somebody else's crimes?

If war were a punishable crime, I'd say most chantry priestess could be tried as accessories. As a group they are sort of required to support any action taken by the Divine, however bloodthirsty and hamfisted, and they justify it to others with their religious rhetoric and actually encourage them to join in. You really think going around telling people it's okay to kill another group of people is in any way okay?

You could argue that they're only doing it because they're instructed to do so by a superior, but that excuse didn't work for the German and Japanese infantrymen who faced execution after World War 2 for violations of the Geneva convention, mostly involving abuses of prisoners and civilians. Although some perpetrators of the My Lai massacre got away with that line, so I guess it's not a hard and fast rule.

Still, it amuses me that the Chantry overall, for all its talk, seems to have actually exhibited far greater disregard for the lives of innocents than Anders ever did. He at least acknowledges the loss of inncoent lives brought about by his actions. The official stance of the Chantry is that anyone who disagrees with them too much simply forfeits their right to exist.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 mai 2011 - 03:28 .