1207 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So all the people inside are guilty by association of somebody else's crimes?

Well, I'm not sure which part you were writing this about, but it could work for either the Chantry explosion or the Right of Tranquility. 

At least the Chantry explosion was committed by an underdog who's waited 1000 years for something to change peacefully.

[Ryzaki]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So all the people inside are guilty by association of somebody else's crimes?

Perfect justification for the RoA as well. 

There's bloodmages in there no one wanted to root them out so all the mages die. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mai 2011 - 04:49 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

GavrielKay wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So all the people inside are guilty by association of somebody else's crimes?

Well,
I'm not sure which part you were writing this about, but it could work
for either the Chantry explosion or the Right of Tranquility. 

At least the Chantry explosion was committed by an underdog who's waited 1000 years for something to change peacefully.

I was talking about the Chantry explosion. But it applies to the Right of Annulment as well.
That's why I killed Anders and defended the mages. It doesn't matter to me if an atrocity is commited by an underdog or an overlord, it's still bad. Saying Anders waited a thousand years, isn't exactly true.

Plaintiff wrote...
If war were a punishable crime, I'd say most chantry priestess could be tried as accessories. As a group they are sort of required to support any action taken by the Divine, however bloodthirsty and hamfisted, and they justify it to others with their religious rhetoric and actually encourage them to join in. You really think going around telling people it's okay to kill another group of people is in any way okay?

The Chantry is not a monolithic hivemind. Every individual still has their own opinions and actions. The priesthood isn't required to all have the same opinion. What evidence is there that the the pristesses in the game have been going around doing that anyway? Besides, if you hold them all responsible for all the Chantry's actions then, all the mages could be held responsbile for Anders terrorism and even for all the endless depravities of the Tevinter Imperium if you want to go broad enough. Or you could go around saying that murdering preists is OK because it's punishment for the crusades.

Plaintiff wrote...

You could argue that they're only doing it because they're instructed to do so by a superior, but that excuse didn't work for the German and Japanese infantrymen who faced execution after World War 2 for violations of the Geneva convention, mostly involving abuses of prisoners and civilians. Although some perpetrators of the My Lai massacre got away with that line, so I guess it's not a hard and fast rule.

Not every member of the Chantry is a solider. Only the Templars are. If you hold them all responsbile it's like holding every single member of a nation directly responsible for the actions of their leader. So therefore every Japanese person is responsible for Pearl Harbor and every American is responsible for the Japanese interment camps. Every country in history has morally dubious incidents in their past. Is it OK to kill every civilian member of that country who spoke out in support of their country despite that?

Plaintiff wrote...
Still, it amuses me that the Chantry overall, for all its talk, seems to have actually exhibited far greater disregard for the lives of innocents than Anders ever did. He at least acknowledges the loss of inncoent lives brought about by his actions. The official stance of the Chantry is that anyone who disagrees with them too much simply forfeits their right to exist.

Even if he does acknowledge innocent lives lost, Anders murders them anyway. That doesn't mean much. Even Meredith acknowledges that not all mages are evil. She imprisons them anyway.

Anders is one person. The Chantry is many people. I generally think individuals should be held responsible for their own actions and not those of anyone else who happens to have the same profession.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2011 - 05:16 .

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So all the people inside are guilty by association of somebody else's crimes?

Perfect justification for the RoA as well. 

There's bloodmages in there no one wanted to root them out so all the mages die. 

Meredith didn't want to root them out, my Hawke would have happily offered to give it a try.  My Hawke would also have suggested to Anders that there were alternatives to blowing up the Chantry - like assassinating Elthina via directed attack rather than blowing up her and everyone around her.  Of course, there's no such choice in the game

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
Meredith didn't want to root them out, my Hawke would have happily offered to give it a try.  My Hawke would also have suggested to Anders that there were alternatives to blowing up the Chantry - like assassinating Elthina via directed attack rather than blowing up her and everyone around her.  Of course, there's no such choice in the game

You never get the opportunity to ask the priests and the nuns about the templars abuses either and have no way of knowing if they wanted to help. 

And Meredith *did* try to root them out. Orsino kept blocking her. "I'll have this tower searched top to bottom!" "You can't do that!" For all the power abuses Meredith does you'd think there'd be one where he could have Orsino locked up before searching the tower *anyway*. Who really was gonna stop her? 

And yeah it sucks there's no "screw both you guys I'm outta here." option. That would've been hands down my favorite ending. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mai 2011 - 05:24 .

[GavrielKay]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I was talking about the Chantry explosion. But it applies to the Right of Annulment as well.
That's why I killed Anders and defended the mages. It doesn't matter to me if an atrocity is commited by an underdog or an overlord, it's still bad. Saying Anders waited a thousand years, isn't exactly true.

Anders obviously didn't personally wait 1000 years.  But the system he wants to overthrow has been around for that long.  And that system still hasn't reached a point where atrocities like Kirkwall are impossible.

Or you could go around saying that murdering preists is OK because it's punishment for the crusades.

Or that the entire Catholic church should be held accountable for producing a system in which priests can molest children and be protected from the consequences.  I know that it is not an opinion shared by most, but I really don't hold religion and the religious to be inviolate or above reproach - especially when their attitude of entitlement allows atrocities to be committed.  I don't hold with wanton murder - that's just something fun in a video game - but criminal charges are definitely in order for some activities that seem to get shoved under the rug in order to protect people's impression of religion.  The fact that the Chantry may also help orphans doesn't excuse systematic degrading of the mages.

[bebop50]

As anyone who justifies killing Elthina ever takenl the templars side if you had you would know Meredith was looking for any evidence of blood magic because. Elthina was starting to take the 1st enchanter side. Because of
Anders hated he jump the gun. He's crime just wasn't the act but the fact his action caused the death of many mages most of whom didn't hate the circle just Meredith. Also most mages aren't fighters. Anders wanted everyone to feel his pain and wanted to die so he wouldn't have to see all the pain he caused. Killing Elthina didn't ignite the rebellion it was standing standing up to the templars

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

You never get the opportunity to ask the priests and the nuns about the templars abuses either and have no way of knowing if they wanted to help. 

True enough.  I would like to think that most of the people in the Chantry are bascially good people who've been brought up to believe something that I don't agree with - that mages are cursed.  But that they don't want them to suffer such abuses as we see in Kirkwall despite that cultural fear. 

And Meredith *did* try to root them out. Orsino kept blocking her. "I'll have this tower searched top to bottom!" "You can't do that!" For all the power abuses Meredith does you'd think there'd be one where he could have Orsino locked up before searching the tower *anyway*. Who really was gonna stop her? 

Meredith may say the words like she means to only root out the blood mages, but we know she's already called for the RoA and is just hoping for permission.  Your Hawke might believe that Meredith intends to sort out the mages, but mine doesn't.  My Hawke believes that if she finds anything even hinting at the evils she's looking for that it'll be her final excuse to call the RoA.  Really, if she's willing to consider Orsino not wanting a search to be proof that all mages need to die, then finding even a single proven blood mage would do it too.  Orsino has no good choice at that point.  Maybe there were things he could have done prior to diffuse the situation, but by then, Meredith is on the warpath.

And yes, in any less railroaded situation, someone with Meredith's power would simply lock Orsino in his quarters and do her search anyway.

And yeah it sucks there's no "screw both you guys I'm outta here." option. That would've been hands down my favorite ending. 

Indeed.  I need the, "hey, I just woke up from a 3 year coma, you guys sort it out." dialogue option.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
True enough.  I would like to think that most of the people in the Chantry are bascially good people who've been brought up to believe something that I don't agree with - that mages are cursed.  But that they don't want them to suffer such abuses as we see in Kirkwall despite that cultural fear.  

They most likely are. They're feeding the poor, housing some of them most of them aren't anymore malicious than most of the circle mages in the circle. 

Meredith may say the words like she means to only root out the blood mages, but we know she's already called for the RoA and is just hoping for permission.  Your Hawke might believe that Meredith intends to sort out the mages, but mine doesn't.  My Hawke believes that if she finds anything even hinting at the evils she's looking for that it'll be her final excuse to call the RoA.  Really, if she's willing to consider Orsino not wanting a search to be proof that all mages need to die, then finding even a single proven blood mage would do it too.  Orsino has no good choice at that point.  Maybe there were things he could have done prior to diffuse the situation, but by then, Meredith is on the warpath.

She was trying the whole time to convince Elthina there was bloodmages to get permission for the RoA. So yes I belive she was trying to root them out. If only to get a reason to kill the rest of them. 

And frankly I don't think she was trying to kill them all at first. Not until Orsino kept blocking her, more bloodmages started running around, I think the rebellion with Grace was the straw that broke the camel's back. By that point she's just done. 

And she was only looking for proof of bloodmages. Orsino blocking that *is* suspicious. (even more so in hindsight). So I wouldn't blame her for seeing that as evidence of his guilt (which is exactly what it was). 

And hilariously he decides to acquise to her demands once she has invoked the RoA. As Meredith herself says "too little too late Orsino." 

And yes, in any less railroaded situation, someone with Meredith's power would simply lock Orsino in his quarters and do her search anyway.

Good old plot railroading. 

Indeed.  I need the, "hey, I just woke up from a 3 year coma, you guys sort it out." dialogue option.

3 year coma. XD 

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

And frankly I don't think she was trying to kill them all at first. Not until Orsino kept blocking her, more bloodmages started running around, I think the rebellion with Grace was the straw that broke the camel's back. By that point she's just done. 

That is entirely possible, but the problem I have with it is that someone in Meredith's position really shouldn't be allowed to be "just done."  I would point to Gregoir as a better example of a KC.  Despite horrible things going on, he's keeping a cool head and considering options.  Once the Warden shows up and gives him the option of cleansing the circle rather than Annulling it, he jumps at the chance.  A proper KC should never think that the RoA is a good option, only better than any other alternative that is presented.  I think Meredith fails (and you can use the idol as her excuse) because she didn't want any other option.  She wants to kill the mages and is only waiting for something to give her the appearance of justification.  Orsino denying her, finding an actual blood mage, Anders' blowing up the Chantry - it really wouldn't have mattered in the end, she was determined to kill the mages.

People in positions of power over the lives of others must be held to a very high standard.  Even temperment is a must.  Getting angry or giving in to frustration is just not an option when the consequences are the lives of hundreds of people.  Elthina should never have promoted Meredith to KC, her background should have made it obvious that Meredith would never be able to react to the mages in a calm and clearheaded fashion.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And frankly I don't think she was trying to kill them all at first. Not until Orsino kept blocking her, more bloodmages started running around, I think the rebellion with Grace was the straw that broke the camel's back. By that point she's just done. 

That is entirely possible, but the problem I have with it is that someone in Meredith's position really shouldn't be allowed to be "just done."  I would point to Gregoir as a better example of a KC.  Despite horrible things going on, he's keeping a cool head and considering options.  Once the Warden shows up and gives him the option of cleansing the circle rather than Annulling it, he jumps at the chance.  A proper KC should never think that the RoA is a good option, only better than any other alternative that is presented.  I think Meredith fails (and you can use the idol as her excuse) because she didn't want any other option.  She wants to kill the mages and is only waiting for something to give her the appearance of justification.  Orsino denying her, finding an actual blood mage, Anders' blowing up the Chantry - it really wouldn't have mattered in the end, she was determined to kill the mages.

People in positions of power over the lives of others must be held to a very high standard.  Even temperment is a must.  Getting angry or giving in to frustration is just not an option when the consequences are the lives of hundreds of people.  Elthina should never have promoted Meredith to KC, her background should have made it obvious that Meredith would never be able to react to the mages in a calm and clearheaded fashion.

To me everyone has a breaking point. And Gregoir didn't have to deal with loose bloodmages for 7 years with a voice in his head driving him insane. You can't say someone should act like X when X had far more reasonable circumstances. (KCs are expected to be able to deal rationally with the circle needing to be anulled so I'm guessing the situation in the tower wasn't that strange.) It just needed to be done with quickly. I have little doubt that given permission and with enough soldiers Gregoir would've anulled the circle.

Though I disagree with you about her being determined to kill the mages. I believe that only came about because of a mixture of the idol, Orsino being an insufferable moron, Elthina's neutrality, and the revolutionists. 

They should. At the end of the day however they're just people. Her invoking the Right wasn't a simple temper tantrum. It was the reaction to years of stress, mind scrambling and paranoia. And it could be argued she believed *was* protecting the people from the mages. 

[TheAwesomologist]

I didn't care for the moment. Sure the cinematic looked nice but it was the second to last nail in the coffin for me when it came to DA2's plot. The game once again let me know that nothing I do as a player matters, and worse, I'm not even playing the most important character of the game (as I was led to believe I was).
Fun game to play, even with the reused maps and ninjas, but Act 3 was a failure plot wise.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

They should. At the end of the day however they're just people. Her invoking the Right wasn't a simple temper tantrum. It was the reaction to years of stress, mind scrambling and paranoia. And it could be argued she believed *was* protecting the people from the mages. 

I'm sure she believed she was protecting people...  it's why she believed that and to what ends she was willing to go to make it happen.  She was a zealot all along, predisposed to think the worst and react accordingly.  The idol made this worse and eroded any ability she may have had to resist her natural impulses, but the impulse seems to have been there all along.

The entire system failed in Kirkwall.  The circle should never have been housed on the hellmouth.  Meredith should never have been KC.  Once Meredith was made KC, Elthina should have noticed that it was too much for her to handle.  Orsino should have kept his nose clean so that his own actions could not be used against the circle.

There is enough fail to go around.

Perhaps Anders' bomb was meant to take out the whole city and wipe the fail away.  The whole end game was just a miscalculation on Anders' part - using too small a bomb.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
I'm sure she believed she was protecting people...  it's why she believed that and to what ends she was willing to go to make it happen.  She was a zealot all along, predisposed to think the worst and react accordingly.  The idol made this worse and eroded any ability she may have had to resist her natural impulses, but the impulse seems to have been there all along.

The entire system failed in Kirkwall.  The circle should never have been housed on the hellmouth.  Meredith should never have been KC.  Once Meredith was made KC, Elthina should have noticed that it was too much for her to handle.  Orsino should have kept his nose clean so that his own actions could not be used against the circle.

There is enough fail to go around.

Perhaps Anders' bomb was meant to take out the whole city and wipe the fail away.  The whole end game was just a miscalculation on Anders' part - using too small a bomb.

 

Ha. There was far too much fail in Kirkwall. 

Though Anders' bomb wouldn't have helped. Only way to be sure would be to nuke it from orbit. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

GavrielKay wrote...

Or that the entire Catholic church should be held accountable for producing a system in which priests can molest children and be protected from the consequences.  I know that it is not an opinion shared by most, but I really don't hold religion and the religious to be inviolate or above reproach - especially when their attitude of entitlement allows atrocities to be committed.  I don't hold with wanton murder - that's just something fun in a video game - but criminal charges are definitely in order for some activities that seem to get shoved under the rug in order to protect people's impression of religion.  The fact that the Chantry may also help orphans doesn't excuse systematic degrading of the mages.

But you'd still charge every single member of the clergy with allowing it to occur? The Catholic Church (like the Chantry) is so huge that not every broken part of it has anything to do with another part.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...
Though Anders' bomb wouldn't have helped. Only way to be sure would be to nuke it from orbit. 

Do you think the Quari are an advanced civilization from another planet?  Don't they say that no one knows exactly where they came from before they attacked.  Perhaps we could make a deal with them to destroy Kirkwall.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Though Anders' bomb wouldn't have helped. Only way to be sure would be to nuke it from orbit. 

Do you think the Quari are an advanced civilization from another planet?  Don't they say that no one knows exactly where they came from before they attacked.  Perhaps we could make a deal with them to destroy Kirkwall.

They better not have been on the run from some Eldritch Abomination that's gonna show up and conviently threaten all of Thedas so they all agree to work together. 

[GavrielKay]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But you'd still charge every single member of the clergy with allowing it to occur? The Catholic Church (like the Chantry) is so huge that not every broken part of it has anything to do with another part.

To the extent of murdering them or putting them all on trial - no.  But they do all label themselves under the same umbrella and benefit from whatever institutional goodwill exists.  The Chantry expects a certain level of respect and freedom to operate based on their belief in themselves as the word of the Maker among the people and as far as the game goes - the jailors of the mages.  The Chantry wants to set the definition of right and wrong in the minds of the people.  So, when any of their own members are found to be - either willfully or by gross negligence - guilty of actions that endanger the lives of thousands of people it tars the whole institution.  When the Divine would call an exalted march and destroy the whole city that really tars the whole system. 

You can't stand up to be counted among a group of people who do such things and say, well, I didn't personally do it so it's ok.

[macrocarl]

First play through I was like HOLY MOTHER OF ALL GREAT AND SMALL! I thought all teh events at the end was so WTF!!??! I was beside myself in a good way.
Role playing wise my free spirit pro-mage Hawke was friends with Anders and while he thought it was horrible, he still kept pro-mage about it. Second play through as a blood magic is bad bad bad mage who was all vengeful against Kirkwall mages (for obvious reasons) thought it too was a tragedy and ended up siding with the Templars.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

They better not have been on the run from some Eldritch Abomination that's gonna show up and conviently threaten all of Thedas so they all agree to work together. 

Oh dear 

[Agamo45]

Rifneno wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I know my history, which is why I know that not everyone has good intentions. There is evil out there, and it flourishes when naive fools like liberals allow it to. Going back to this fictional universe, power corrupts as they say, and mages have far more power at their fingertips than any normal person could dream of.

Stopped reading when I got to "naive fools like liberals."  Shut up.  Take your political diatribes somewhere else.

I was simply following your example.

[Silfren]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Anders was 'able to make use of her' ?  Wow, that's one of the best euphamisms for murder I've ever seen.  So, she didn't take a stand that you agreed with, so it was ok to kill her and a few hundred people in and around the church?  So, your neighbors dog cr*ps on your lawn...you going to 'make use of him' and burn his house down, make sure the rest of the neighborhood understands not to defile your lawn?[/quote]

You know, I don't think that was meant as a euphemism.  Just a statement of fact.  By killing Elthina, Anders was able to make her useful for something.  The fact that YOU don't like it and find the phrase distasteful doesn't mean the other person was hiding behind the phrase because they're afraid to admit that Elthina was killed for political reasons.  Note that I don't say murder.  Not because I'm hiding from the word, but because I think Elthina's execution was justified.  

I also know I'm not the only one sick of people insisting that those of us who have no problem with Elthina's death just think it's okay to murder people who disagree with us/don't do what we want. We aren't talking about a disagreement over what was served for dinner, after all, or getting upset because someone's pet took a dump on our property, to use your own example, as that assertion of "people who disagree with us" implies.  Elthina was turning a blind eye tthings that ran the scale from "just" illegal to outright abusive.  

I, for one, hold that Elthina is just as guilty as those carrying out the abuses, because she knew what was going on--she had to have, if she somehow was unaware, that's not exactly an argument in her favor--and she allowed it to continue unabated.  If you know something terrible is going on, and you have the power and authority to put a stop to it, yet you do nothing, there is no practical difference between you and the people actively doing it.  You might as well be engaging in the abuses yourself.  So yes, guilty and absolutely deserving of death.  Deal with it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

GavrielKay wrote...
You can't stand up to be counted among a group of people who do such things and say, well, I didn't personally do it so it's ok.

Why? You don't have control over what other poeple do. Especially if that group is enormoulsy broad. You could group corrupt individuals with any number of huge groups of people they also have something in common wit, other than their relgious institution.

[GavrielKay]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
You can't stand up to be counted among a group of people who do such things and say, well, I didn't personally do it so it's ok.

Why? You don't have control over what other poeple do. Especially if that group is enormoulsy broad. You could group corrupt individuals with any number of huge groups of people they also have something in common wit, other than their relgious institution.

Yes, you could.  But religious institutions are a bit different in that they claim to define (or at least teach) what is right and wrong.  They have a higher standard to live up to as far as I'm concerned.  And if the other people in the huge group want to come forward and declare en masse that they find the abuses of a few of their fellows to be unforgivable and publicly denounce them and hand them over to the official form of justice in their area I'll give them some credit back. 

To the extent that they sit quietly and allow it to happen in their midst rather than tarnish the reputation of the institution then I find them all to be a bit guilty.

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...
You can't stand up to be counted among a group of people who do such things and say, well, I didn't personally do it so it's ok.

Where does that sort of thinking end?  If all Andrastians are responsible for every act of every templar, then what about the dwarves living among them, who aren't members of that religion but also benefit?  Societies aren't closed systems- everyone is inter-connected to everyone else.  Assigning blame to every Chantry representative for the actions of a few just sounds like prejudice.