1207 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the Grey Wardens, or more specifically The Warden, would be the one who could make progressive steps towards a change in attitude. If the Hero of Ferelden was a mage who stepped into the role of Arl of Amaranthine, the opinions of the people in the nation could change because there's a powerful mage who is useful and necessary towards the survival and progress of the economy. Given how the factions in Kirkwall think Amaranthine could control the Waking Seas, I think Ferelden would be the place to look for a change in attitude towards mages (at least for the worlds where the Warden-Commander was a mage) rather than Kirkwall, where sanity points and common sense were revoked a long time ago.

I think the Warden can certainly start the first steps. But the problem with Wardens is somewhat similar to the Legion of the Dead. Casteless there could do a lot but no one in Orzammar would care as a Legionnaire cut off all ties. Wardens are somewhat similar, as they leave behind their former lives. Unless the Wardens become much more active in politics, which seems to be the First Wardens goal, but that is likely to engender another set of problems.

So yes, the Wardens can be the starting step, but it wil require more than that afterwards.

And I share your sentiment that Ferelden can become a harbinger of change, though I'd put that several decades if not a century or two in the future. IMO, the new major power on the rise is Nevarra. 

There's the issue that the dwarves never seem to witness the actions of the Legion of the Dead (with the likely exception of the warrior caste and the casteless recruits in the King Bhelen scenerios), since they are sheltered in a Great Thaig. I'm probably most optimistic about Ferelden because the protagonist is not only proactive, but competent as well. Nevarra is certainly a growing power in the region, especially since it took the Blasted Hills from the Orlesian Empire, but we know so little about the nation. The people of Ferelden can witness the mage protagonist fighting against hordes of darkspawn with magic and defeating the Archdemon, which leads to people saying he's blessed by the Maker himself (as Queen Anora attests to at the royal ceremony). Given the views on mages and magic, this seems to be a significant step since the Hero of Ferelden being a mage establishes a precedence against the traditional view of mages being like the Tevinter Magisters and even the outlook that mages are "cursed," as we often hear Andrastians address mages. The actions of the Commander of the Grey (the Magi Hero of Ferelden) in Amaranthine can place a mage in unprecedented political and military power over the City of Amaranthine, the arling, the Silver Order, and even the order of Grey Wardens within the nation as a high noble since he's technically the new Arl replacing Howe. I think this would go a long way towards addressing that a mage can hold a position of authority and power without being like Tevinter (which seems to be the fear of some people in the Andrastian nations, including Fenris).

I'd agree it would require more outside of Ferelden, but I think there's a stronger case for changing perceptions in this nation with a mage protagonist who demonstrates himself to be a vital and efficient leader of the order and the people, earning the respect and admiration of farmers, traders, the city people, and the nobility who swear fealty to him.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Indeed, which is why the rationale you're using is flawed.  Best to talk about direct personal responsibility, not something more diffuse and second-hand- all Chantry priests being complicit for the acts of a few, etc.  Although, what you're talking about here is retribution and that's another thing entirely.  Annulment is intended to be a preventative, to save other innocent lives.

Oddly enough, the Annulment Meredith was invoking was most assuredly retributive, and not preventative at all.

It's more complicated than that.  She mentions the mob, which will assuredly want an eye for an eye, but Hawke's speech in the templar ending mentions staving off a full-scale mage rebellion.

What rebellion? Hawke's dialogue makes no sense. Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry. It doesn't sound complicated as much as Hawke sounds ignorant about what actually happened. And I don't think killing an entire population of people because "the people will demand blood" is a sufficient reason to kill countless individuals who aren't responsible for the actions of one, single man.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's why I'd support the Lucrosians. I think they are the wisest mage fraternity. Hsitorically speaking, rights and freedoms were generally given to groups who prove useful and necessary for a system to function (see what Bhelen is doing with casteless. Rights in exchange for services). Integrating mages into the economy (and the army) is the right step.

So, slaves?  What would you do with mages who don't want to be merchants or soldiers?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'd agree it would require more outside of Ferelden, but I think there's a stronger case for changing perceptions in this nation with a mage protagonist who demonstrates himself to be a vital and efficient leader of the order and the people, earning the respect and admiration of farmers, traders, the city people, and the nobility who swear fealty to him.

Agreed, and I've always felt that drastic change always started as a top down thing. Usually by visionaries.
But it will need reciprocation from the bottom. Hero worship alone won't cut it (people's memories are very very inadequate), it will require long lasting foundatons and reforms.

And yea, I think from what we know till now, Ferelden is the most likely to bring about long lasting systemic changes. Not only vis-a-vis mages, but also the removal of feudal regimes, noble privileges, emphasis on the middle class, and some semblance to the rule of law.  

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
What rebellion? Hawke's dialogue makes no sense. Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry. It doesn't sound complicated as much as Hawke sounds ignorant about what actually happened. And I don't think killing an entire population of people because "the people will demand blood" is a sufficient reason to kill countless individuals who aren't responsible for the actions of one, single man.

Hawke knows that Anders has been working with mages inside and outside the Circle.  You can believe that a full-scale mage rebellion is either under way or inevitable and move to cut that off before it gets out of control.

I believe it was Rifeno who's been arguing the cost of war- see his posts re "necessary sacrifices."

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mai 2011 - 12:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's why I'd support the Lucrosians. I think they are the wisest mage fraternity. Hsitorically speaking, rights and freedoms were generally given to groups who prove useful and necessary for a system to function (see what Bhelen is doing with casteless. Rights in exchange for services). Integrating mages into the economy (and the army) is the right step.

So, slaves?  What would you do with mages who don't want to be merchants or soldiers?

No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 12:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
What rebellion? Hawke's dialogue makes no sense. Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry. It doesn't sound complicated as much as Hawke sounds ignorant about what actually happened. And I don't think killing an entire population of people because "the people will demand blood" is a sufficient reason to kill countless individuals who aren't responsible for the actions of one, single man.

Hawke knows that Anders has been working with mages inside and outside the Circle.  You can believe that a full-scale mage rebellion is either under way or inevitable and move to cut that off before it gets out of control.

I believe it was Rifeno who's been arguing the cost of war- see his posts re "necessary sacrifices."

Anders said the mage underground was crushed, and he specifically tried to get Hawke to help him. There's no evidence that anyone from the Circle of Kirkwall aided Anders in destroying the Chantry, and we know that the aim of the mage underground was to get mages free from the Kirkwall templars.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

But you would be forcing them to either choose certain professions or prison.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders said the mage underground was crushed, and he specifically tried to get Hawke to help him. There's no evidence that anyone from the Circle of Kirkwall aided Anders in destroying the Chantry, and we know that the aim of the mage underground was to get mages free from the Kirkwall templars.

And your only source for that is Anders- not exactly reliable.  Operating on limited information, you could well come to the conclusion that the Kirkwall Circle is a lost cause.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

But you would be forcing them to either choose certain professions or prison.

Yes, but a nice looking prison, with libraries, quality food, protection, training...etc.

You can't open the entire economy to mages without assigning them to specific niches, at least not immediately, because their abilities and level of education would give them advantages over everyone else. So we would be creating a different kind of popular fear and hatred of mages. 

And we've seen what economic grievances do to people.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 01:00 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders said the mage underground was crushed, and he specifically tried to get Hawke to help him. There's no evidence that anyone from the Circle of Kirkwall aided Anders in destroying the Chantry, and we know that the aim of the mage underground was to get mages free from the Kirkwall templars.

And your only source for that is Anders- not exactly reliable.  Operating on limited information, you could well come to the conclusion that the Kirkwall Circle is a lost cause.

The only person I see involved in the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry is Anders. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, I don't see the point in condemning the Circle mages for an act Anders openly confesses to. The Circle of Kirkwall is a lost cause because... what, exactly? All the mage antagonists we encounter who are outside the Gallows? The missing line from Cassandra where she addresses that Varric lied about the number of blood mages in Kirkwall? The hundreds of enchanters, mages, and apprentices we never actually meet as Hawke? I don't see why someone should assume the Circle is a lost cause, but we know it's condemned because a genocidal lunatic demanded the execution of an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they had nothing to do with.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 mai 2011 - 01:02 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That's debatable really. I'm sure many of them are, but not all of them. And without oversight from a body like templars I'm not convinced it wouldn't be much worse in many places. Especially without a fighting forcein place to hunt down the aboninations that do appear. The other thing is I might not have agreed with Cullen's assesment that "Mages aren't like people" or Fenris' that the mages would all become magisters if given the chance but the fact is that mages are in a different positon that other people. Samson wasn't wrong when he said "back them into a corner and they have options we don't." If mages are allowed completely freedom, then I can't imagine at least some of them won't end up abusing it. And that's the main problem with mages being free, a small number of them can potentially cause havoc with mimimal effort. No matter how well intentioned most of them are, they will never be able to vouch for every single mage that is free. And given that Anders blew up a lot of innocent people just to provoke a war, I have a feeling that my sympathy for a rebellion would fade quickly if they follow his model of resistence. Even if Anders wanted to mages and templars to go to open warfare, what he did was unessesary.

I don't buy the reasoning that "not taking a stand" makes Elthina deserving of execution. You could argue it makes her useless but at the end of the day Anders still killed her for "not helping him." If she is guilty of inaction then fine, but if so she isn't guilty of actively helping the templars against him. Mages don't need to try to make themselves an enemy of everyone like Anders seems to think they should. In fact he probably made the whole situation worse for the mage rebellion.

Oh look, a field full of straw men. What a shocker.

1. Almost no one advocates *complete freedom* for mages. Next.
2. Elthina not taking a stand. ... Elthina. Not taking a stand. *deep breath* JFC I'm getting sick of this straw man. NO. That's NOT what is happening. People aren't blaming Elthina for not taking the mages side and advocating abandoning the Circle idea, people are blaming Elthina because the Grand Cleric refused to enforce Chantry law. This is like a police chief refusing to arrest a murderer because he doesn't want to get involved. It's her JOB to reign Meredith in and she abandons her duty. THAT is the problem we have with her. And you know this, because we've clarified TIME AND TIME AGAIN. OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER.

Ryzaki wrote...

And Meredith *did* try to root them out. Orsino kept blocking her. "I'll have this tower searched top to bottom!" "You can't do that!" For all the power abuses Meredith does you'd think there'd be one where he could have Orsino locked up before searching the tower *anyway*. Who really was gonna stop her? 

That does sound bad on Orsino's part on the surface, but consider the templar's history for punishments. They're not exactly "reasonable." Samson, one of their own men, was kicked out of the templars which basically means they condemned him to the slow fate of lyrium withdrawal on the streets of lowtown. What was his grand crime? He was delivering a letter from a Circle mage to his old sweetheart in the city from before he was taken to the Circle. They basically sentenced him to a cruel death for delivering a "sorry, I won't be coming home love :(" letter. ONE OF THEIR OWN MEN! The mages? Apparently talking to a civilian gets you 30 lashes. That's right; they're tortured for talking to an outsider. This includes, say, Hawke saying "sup?" to a random mage he sees in the Gallows.

So consider the amount of truly asinine punishments many mages innocent of any actual wrongdoing would suffer if that search happened. If I were Orsino, I'd have fought tooth and nail to stop it too.

Addai67 wrote...

It's also apparent that mages are crazier in Kirkwall than the average. By this reasoning, annullment really is just.

I agree. The Chantry should be annulled for locking them up in demon central.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And no one is saying that it will, unless we go with the tranquil solution. Which is a tremendous waste of a resource.

What the ****.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

International treaties. Medieval Europe banned the use of crossbows for instance (the Catholic Church oversaw it).

Bianca disapproves. (-50)

Addai67 wrote...

It's more complicated than that.  She mentions the mob, which will assuredly want an eye for an eye, but Hawke's speech in the templar ending mentions staving off a full-scale mage rebellion.

I always LOL when people bring up the lynch mob. Let me be absolutely clear on this.

The lynch mob deserves to die.

They're a bunch of people trying to murder a group that had nothing to do with the crime they're angry about. I have NO concern WHATSOEVER for their lives. The fact that they're not soldiers or mages does not excuse their own crime. Bring them on. I won't lose any sleep over their deaths.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The only person I see involved in the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry is Anders. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, I don't see the point in condemning the Circle mages for an act Anders openly confesses to. The Circle of Kirkwall is a lost cause because... what, exactly? All the mage antagonists we encounter who are outside the Gallows? The missing line from Cassandra where she addresses that Varric lied about the number of blood mages in Kirkwall? The hundreds of enchanters, mages, and apprentices we never actually meet as Hawke? I don't see why someone should assume the Circle is a lost cause, but we know it's condemned because a genocidal lunatic demanded the execution of an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they had nothing to do with.

Because you can believe war is inevitable.

However, I'm not going to go down yet another long road of mage vs. templar.  The thread topic is Anders' actions, specifically.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And no one is saying that it will, unless we go with the tranquil solution. Which is a tremendous waste of a resource.

What the ****.

?

I don't like to deal with subjective arguments. I prefer them to be objective and I can objectively say that killing all mages is an unnecessary waste.

And yea, people are resources (we call it "human capital") to sustain and advance society that we as political animals create instinctively / by nature.  The kind that you need to treat well, provide incentives to and encourage intellectual output to boost productivity.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

But you would be forcing them to either choose certain professions or prison.

Yes, but a nice looking prison, with libraries, quality food, protection, training...etc.

You can't open the entire economy to mages without assigning them to specific niches, at least not immediately, because their abilities and level of education would give them advantages over everyone else. So we would be creating a different kind of popular fear and hatred of mages. 

And we've seen what economic grievances do to people.

I don't see how this would work at all, not for those who are arguing mage freedom on a human rights/ personal freedom basis.  This requires a level of authoritarian control that amounts to little better than the current Circle system.  And what happens if the populace doesn't want to patronize or be taught by mages?  You force them to participate in this planned economy, too?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't see how this would work at all, not for those who are arguing mage freedom on a human rights/ personal freedom basis. 

I am not.

This requires a level of authoritarian control that amounts to little better than the current Circle system.

To initiate it, yes. Then it can have a life of its own, with a certain amount of guidance. Niches automatically fill themselves if opportunity exists.

And what happens if the populace doesn't want to patronize or be taught by mages?  You force them to participate in this planned economy, too?

Educate them about the value that mages can provide to them and that fear and hatred are not healthy emotions to have.
Since when relying on and encouraging popular prejudice is a good idea? One has to be mindful of it, but to base policies solely on it? No thanks.

And seeing how we are talking about a medieval era system, "planned economy" is an anachronism.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 01:31 .

[The Baconer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's why I'd support the Lucrosians. I think they are the wisest mage fraternity. Hsitorically speaking, rights and freedoms were generally given to groups who prove useful and necessary for a system to function (see what Bhelen is doing with casteless. Rights in exchange for services). Integrating mages into the economy (and the army) is the right step.

So, slaves?  What would you do with mages who don't want to be merchants or soldiers?

No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

This wouldn't be necessary in a Tevinter-centric style of government.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Baconer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

This wouldn't be necessary in a Tevinter-centric style of government.

I have been giving it thought actually but I cannot provide a complete educated opinion until we find out more about the ancient Tevinter Imperium, something I've been dying to know about since Origins.

With the info we do have, I do not think a magocracy is necessarily a disaster. It could be an efficient, productive and progressive government. Enlightened even. But I think sober institutionalized checks and balances are desirable, without which a magocracy could also prove to be very dangerous. I would not trust mages to self-police on their own.

[The Baconer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I have been giving it thought actually but I cannot provide a complete educated opinion until we find out more about the ancient Tevinter Imperium, something I've been dying to know about since Origins.

With the info we do have, I do not think a magocracy is necessarily a disaster. It could be an efficient, productive and progressive government. Enlightened even. But I think sober institutionalized checks and balances are desirable, without which a magocracy could also prove to be very dangerous. I would not trust mages to self-police on their own.

One of the biggest reasons I take this stance is that Tevinter seems to be the most technologically and scientifically forward moving human civilization in Thedas. Tevinter seems to be responsible for the grand majority of all the architectural marvels we come across in the game, many of which are still used at the present. Now look at Chantry-governed Thedas. Advances in technology seem to have stagnated, the Circles are the only scientifically-minded communities. Instead of pushing the boundaries of construction and engineering, they are complacent with inhabiting leftover husks of Tevinter's glory days.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Educate them about the value that mages can provide to them and that fear and hatred are not healthy emotions to have.
Since when relying on and encouraging popular prejudice is a good idea? One has to be mindful of it, but to base policies solely on it? No thanks.

And seeing how we are talking about a medieval era system, "planned economy" is an anachronism.

It's Andrastian dogma at this point- unless you're talking about overturning the White Divine.

No need to get technical with definitions, a micro-managed economy from a central authority is what it is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Baconer wrote...
One of the biggest reasons I take this stance is that Tevinter seems to be the most technologically and scientifically forward moving human civilization in Thedas. Tevinter seems to be responsible for the grand majority of all the architectural marvels we come across in the game, many of which are still used at the present. Now look at Chantry-governed Thedas. Advances in technology seem to have stagnated, the Circles are the only scientifically-minded communities. Instead of pushing the boundaries of construction and engineering, they are complacent with inhabiting leftover husks of Tevinter's glory days.

I do agree, though I am not sure I'd say Tevinter had technology perse (like the Qunari or Dwarves). But rather, they had more impressive implementations and practical use of magic, like the magic towers in Awakening. 

As for Tevinter marvel in engineering



They built a freaking bridge over the Waking Sea.

Though I suspect they were helped by the dwarves, but good on them for taking advantage of potential.

I've always said, "modern" Thedas is a dwarf on the shoulders of a giant (Tevinter).
But that said, Tevinter had its own problems as well and I think something in between could be etabished.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 02:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
It's Andrastian dogma at this point- unless you're talking about overturning the White Divine.

Could be changed from an Andrastrian pov. It's pretty flexible and open to interpretation (heck, even the Chantry changeda few lines to legitimate their march on the Dalish). And ultimately yea, the white Divine should be either stripped of all political powers, or be removed completely. But that would require time, unless the revolution is succesful.

No need to get technical with definitions, a micro-managed economy from a central authority is what it is.

Medieval economies couldn't work like that really. It was for the most part small private entrepreneurs and traders. States were not eqquipped to micro-manage it that much.

But even if they were, it's not what I am looking for exactly. More like setting up laws and certain restrictions, and providing certain incentives. The rest is to be done by the mages. They need to reciprocate to take advantage of the opportunity provided to them.

[BY-TOR STORMDRAGON]

ANDERS: JERK, PSYCHOPATH, LOSER...NEVER USED HIM...hated not being able to stop him. Until he tasted my blades afterword.

Modifié par BY-TOR STORMDRAGON, 26 mai 2011 - 02:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The only person I see involved in the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry is Anders. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, I don't see the point in condemning the Circle mages for an act Anders openly confesses to. The Circle of Kirkwall is a lost cause because... what, exactly? All the mage antagonists we encounter who are outside the Gallows? The missing line from Cassandra where she addresses that Varric lied about the number of blood mages in Kirkwall? The hundreds of enchanters, mages, and apprentices we never actually meet as Hawke? I don't see why someone should assume the Circle is a lost cause, but we know it's condemned because a genocidal lunatic demanded the execution of an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they had nothing to do with.

Because you can believe war is inevitable.

However, I'm not going to go down yet another long road of mage vs. templar.  The thread topic is Anders' actions, specifically.

It wasn't inevitable, it happened because the Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith - that's the reason the Circles of Magi rose up against the Chantry. The Circle mages didn't rise up because Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It wasn't inevitable,

Tell that to Anders.