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[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It wasn't inevitable,

Tell that to Anders.

You think Anders made the right decision destroying the Kirkwall Chantry?

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You think Anders made the right decision destroying the Kirkwall Chantry?

Uh... no?  lol  But he knew that in blowing up the Chantry, he had touched off a war.  That was his purpose, after all.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You think Anders made the right decision destroying the Kirkwall Chantry?

Uh... no?  lol  But he knew that in blowing up the Chantry, he had touched off a war.  That was his purpose, after all.

If Meredith didn't wipe out the Circle of Kirkwall for an act they weren't responsible for, there wouldn't have been a war. She didn't try to isolate the mages on the Gallows from the general populace, she simply ordered her men to execute the mages immediately, and promptly ignored the man who was actually responsible for the deed.

[Carmen_Willow]

I followed this thread today but was unable to post to it until now, so please forgive me for coming into the thread mid conversation. I would not ordinarily do it, but the argument back and forth as to whether Elvina's lack of leadership, or Meredith's insanity were justifications for blowing up the Chantry and everyone in it misses the point.

In my view there is nothing in the game that justifies Anders' action.

When Anders blew up the Chantry and everyone in it (and those unfortunates who happened to be passing by, or within the radius of the concussion blast, or within range of the flying mortar and brick) he was absolutely no better than a Magister hauling slave after slave up on an altar and sacrificing them to fuel a spell. Anders stole the lives of those who had not done a thing to him.

If you are an atheist and believe that there is nothing after death, he stole the only life those people will ever have. He did not ask their permission. He did not convince them to become a part of his cause. He did not ask that they trade a value (their life) for a value (mage freedom). No. He stole the only time they would have to live their own life, the way they saw fit for HIS dream, HIS cause, HIS desire, HIS needs, HIS anger, HIS wish for vengance. He didn't even ask the Mages he purported to champion. He decided for the Mages as well. Anders is the worst sort of thief because he stole from everyone involved the thing the probably valued the most, their own life.

So much of the world's evil comes from some people who think they have the right to sacrifice others to their cause. In Thedas, the Magisters were openly honest about what they were doing...they stole people in the open (slavery) and sacrificed them in the open for their own power. They, at least, didn't gloss over their actions or pretend they were for a "higher good."

The Chantry is worse...they pretend that what they do isn't slavery....after all, it's for the mages "own good." But they still force some people to live their lives as others will it. And not just the mages...how many youngsters are taken against their will and made into Templars? How many women are "given" to the priesthood? No, the Chantry practices its own form of slavery, complete with drug addiction and "tranquility" to keep the slaves in line.

As horrible as that is, Anders action was just as bad. He had no right to those peoples lives. The one thing, THE ONE THING, every human being should have the right to own is his or her own life. That means that the Church, the State or a madman can't take it from them without their permission. Every human should have the right to live as they see fit provided they don't infringe on someone else's right to do the same.

If someone does use physical or psychological force against another person first--the person who perpetrates the force should be punished...not a group. When Anders blew up the Chantry he violated the very principle he was fighting for...he became the very thing he hated, and he deserved to die for it but only he deserved to die for it.

Going after the other mages because of Anders' action was just as wrong as his destruction of the
Chantry. At the point Meredith decided to use lethal force against innocent individuals, they had the right to use lethal force to defend themselves. Every human being should have the right to defend his/her own life with every tool at his/her command. That includes lethal magic...blood magic if you will. I do not condemn any mage who uses whatever she can come up with to try and live when attacked and fighting for his life. That makes Fenris a hypocrite...he uses every tool at his command to defend his own life. He has no right to deny that to others.

Until we as human beings quit trying to make others live the life WE want them to live, we will have no peace. There will always be those whose thirst for power over others will drive them into conflict with someone else who wants power over others. Anders is just another thug, dressed up in pretty slogans, who wants to decide how the whole world shall be...with bombs if necessary.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Agreed, and I've always felt that drastic change always started as a top down thing. Usually by visionaries.
But it will need reciprocation from the bottom. Hero worship alone won't cut it (people's memories are very very inadequate), it will require long lasting foundatons and reforms.

\\

Hero worship is useless. Look at Sten and the Warden. Sten doesn't conclude from the Warden's actions that all humans/elves/dwarves are equal in standing and value to the quanri. He just concludes that the Warden is peerless and equivalent to the qunari. The Arishok does the same to a Hawke that wins his respect - he says Hawke is special and the rest of the non-qunari are worthless.

And yea, I think from what we know till now, Ferelden is the most likely to bring about long lasting systemic changes. Not only vis-a-vis mages, but also the removal of feudal regimes, noble privileges, emphasis on the middle class, and some semblance to the rule of law.  

Ferelden already has an oligrachy in many ways, and the basis for a parliament. Fereden doesn't have any economic might, though. So it'll be hard to see those reforms spread.

I agree with you, though, that a Circle focused on bartering magical services (such as mercenaries or craftsmen, as well as potentially interrogating, though not with blood magic) could win increased freedom for mages by increasing their clout.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It wasn't inevitable, it happened because the Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith - that's the reason the Circles of Magi rose up against the Chantry. The Circle mages didn't rise up because Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

Anders destroyed the Chantry to push Meredith into invoking the Rite in the hope that the injustice of it would force the other Circles to fight (or at least force the Kirkwall Circle to fight). War was very much his hope.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

Doctors. Mages would make better doctors that our modern medicine. The sheer wealth you can create by having, effectively, a cure-all medical system where the cost of care is very low (exertion of a mage) but the barries to entry in the profession are high (because of the monopoly power of Circles and the natural low supply of talented creation mages & spirit healers) so there is profit to be made.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...
Ferelden already has an oligrachy in many ways, and the basis for a parliament. Fereden doesn't have any economic might, though. So it'll be hard to see those reforms spread.

I think Amaranthine rivalling Kirkwall, which according to Gaider is the main hub in the Waking sea, is indication that Ferelden can have a solid economy.

But I think Ferelden's greatest resource is its people. Fereldans are proud, independent and hardworking and do not seem to be too fixated on blood, but rather on merit. Plus there is a certain commoner pride as well and the importance of private property (freeholders) is there. I think that if there is a place in Thedas that can witness the emergence of a strong middle class, it's Ferelden. And I think that a strong middle class is necessary for a strong economy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 03:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, since slaves don't get paid.

They can be academics, writers. Other professions, the economy is not just trade.

If they don't want to do any of the options provided to them, then they'd contend themselves to a life of no purpose in the Circle, to eat and sleep like animals until they die. And really, the food and space would be wasted on them, but oh well.

Doctors. Mages would make better doctors that our modern medicine. The sheer wealth you can create by having, effectively, a cure-all medical system where the cost of care is very low (exertion of a mage) but the barries to entry in the profession are high (because of the monopoly power of Circles and the natural low supply of talented creation mages & spirit healers) so there is profit to be made.

Yea, in public and / or private hospitals absolutely.

Another thing I was thinking about. Firefighters. Why not. I don't think they have firefighters as a profession, but rather rely on people passing buckets of water. Mages can put out a fire and save lives in an instant.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 03:51 .

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It wasn't inevitable

Define "inevitable."  Inevitable in that it was absolutely going to happen?  No.  Inevitable in that it was the only way the Chantry would release its brutal grip?  Definitely.

Carmen_Willow wrote...

As horrible as that is, Anders action was just as bad. He had no right to those peoples lives. The one thing, THE ONE THING, every human being should have the right to own is his or her own life. That means that the Church, the State or a madman can't take it from them without their permission. Every human should have the right to live as they see fit provided they don't infringe on someone else's right to do the same.

Yay, more "life is rainbows and there's always a good moral solution."  Once again, war is hell.  Don't think for a moment you don't owe your own lives and freedoms to people who were willing to do terrible things.

[Plaintiff]

TheJediOrion wrote...
The Chantry is not a monolithic hivemind. Every individual still has their own opinions and actions. The priesthood isn't required to all have the same opinion. What evidence is there that the the pristesses in the game have been going around doing that anyway? Besides, if you hold them all responsible for all the Chantry's actions then, all the mages could be held responsbile for Anders terrorism and even for all the endless depravities of the Tevinter Imperium if you want to go broad enough. Or you could go around saying that murdering preists is OK because it's punishment for the crusades.

No, you don't get what I'm saying. When you join a church you are absolutely required to follow itslaws and uphold its beliefs. Failure to do so makes you a heretic. When Lily helped break Jowan free in Origins, she ceased to be a Chantry sister and became a heretic, because she was breaking a core rule of her faith. One of the rules of joining any religion is that you believe in and follow the rest of its rules.

I'm not holding them repsonsible for "The Chantry's" actions, I'm holding them responsible for their own damn actions. When Orlais invaded Ferelden, it had support from the Chantry in Ferelden. When an Exalted March is called, the Grand Clerics, Revered Mothers, and sisters of the Chantry encourage others to join the cause by preaching its righteousness. They aren't just sitting back and letting it happen, they are actively encouraging bloodshed in the name of the Maker. And any one who joins the Chantry implicitly agrees to take on this task should the need arise, because it is "the will of the Maker".

Saying that the same applies to mages is completely wrong. Being a mage is not a matter of faith, it's a genetic condition. You might as well have said "If every Christian believes in Christ, then all black people like Kanye West". It would've made just as much sense. Following the rules of the Chantry is a requirement of being in the Chantry. Supporting Anders is not a requirement of being a mage.

TheJediOrion wrote...
Not every member of the Chantry is a solider. Only the Templars are. If you hold them all responsbile it's like holding every single member of a nation directly responsible for the actions of their leader. So therefore every Japanese person is responsible for Pearl Harbor and every American is responsible for the Japanese interment camps. Every country in history has morally dubious incidents in their past. Is it OK to kill every civilian member of that country who spoke out in support of their country despite that?

No, it's not okay to kill civilians. But no officiated member of the Chantry is a civilian, the Chantry is, at the time of the mage uprising, a military power in its own right, and thus a valid target for an attack. The Templars are not autonomous in DAII, they need permission to perform the Right of Annulment and when an Exalted March is called by the Divine, they drop everything. While having a devout belief in the Maker is not a requirement of becoming a Templar, it certainly helps, and while sympathetic templars like Keran and Thrask do exist, they should and probably would be booted out of the order. The minute they decided to help the mages rebel, they ceased to become Templars and became insubordinates.

TheJediOrion wrote...
Even if he does acknowledge innocent lives lost, Anders murders them anyway. That doesn't mean much. Even Meredith acknowledges that not all mages are evil. She imprisons them anyway.

Anders is one person. The Chantry is many people. I generally think individuals should be held responsible for their own actions and not those of anyone else who happens to have the same profession.

And he murders a lot less than the Chantry ever has. It doesn't have to mean "much" to still make him better than them. Name me one Chantry official, or any believer off the street,  even, who acknowledges the slaughter of innocents by the Chantry ever.

I would agree that individuals should be judged by their actions, but as I said, a requirement of the faith is that you support any action taken in the name of that faith, both internally and externally. So no, Chantry sisters are not innocent.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 mai 2011 - 04:05 .

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It wasn't inevitable, it happened because the Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith - that's the reason the Circles of Magi rose up against the Chantry. The Circle mages didn't rise up because Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

Anders destroyed the Chantry to push Meredith into invoking the Rite in the hope that the injustice of it would force the other Circles to fight (or at least force the Kirkwall Circle to fight). War was very much his hope.

I'm going to take minor issue with this...  I know Anders did it to start the rebellion, but I'm not entirely convinced that he intended to do it via Meredith calling the RoA. 

I think Anders wanted Elthina dead, because it was Elthina's intervention that kept things simmering but not boiling over.  Anders didn't want things to be just barely tolerable - he wanted things to be intolerable so that the mages would fight back.  Meredith invoking the RoA certainly filled that requirement, but Anders could have gotten his way via a number of other versions of a crackdown on the mages by Meredith.

I agree war was his goal, but the RoA was just one of several means to that end.

[The Baconer]

GavrielKay wrote...
I'm going to take minor issue with this...  I know Anders did it to start the rebellion, but I'm not entirely convinced that he intended to do it via Meredith calling the RoA. 

Nah, it's pretty clear cut that he was going for the RoA.

[GavrielKay]

The Baconer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I'm going to take minor issue with this...  I know Anders did it to start the rebellion, but I'm not entirely convinced that he intended to do it via Meredith calling the RoA. 

Nah, it's pretty clear cut that he was going for the RoA.

What do you base that on?  I don't remember any dialogue to that effect.  He just needed Elthina to quit calming things down every time something might have come to blows.

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
I'm going to take minor issue with this...  I know Anders did it to start the rebellion, but I'm not entirely convinced that he intended to do it via Meredith calling the RoA. 

I think Anders wanted Elthina dead, because it was Elthina's intervention that kept things simmering but not boiling over.  Anders didn't want things to be just barely tolerable - he wanted things to be intolerable so that the mages would fight back.  Meredith invoking the RoA certainly filled that requirement, but Anders could have gotten his way via a number of other versions of a crackdown on the mages by Meredith.

I agree war was his goal, but the RoA was just one of several means to that end.

The Circle was filled with force tranqulization, rampant rape and forced imprisonment.

What else could the templars do to torture mages? Beat them?

Anders either wanted the RoA or his entire plan makes no sense.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

The Circle was filled with force tranqulization, rampant rape and forced imprisonment.

What else could the templars do to torture mages? Beat them?

Anders either wanted the RoA or his entire plan makes no sense.

It is possible that his plan makes no sense 

I don't know.  I just got the impression that Meredith and Orsino were going to come to blows sooner or later without Elthina to calm them down.  Even if Meredith didn't pull out her biggest weapon.  I can't argue your point about it being hard for the situation to get much worse for the mages though.

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
It is possble that his plan makes no sense 

I don't know.  I just got the impression that Meredith and Orsino were going to come to blows sooner or later without Elthina to calm them down.  Even if Meredith didn't pull out her biggest weapon.  I can't argue your point about it being hard for the situation to get much worse for the mages though.

Meredith would declare an RoA the second Orsino did something. I mean, she was angling for it in the first place.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I'm going to take minor issue with this...  I know Anders did it to start the rebellion, but I'm not entirely convinced that he intended to do it via Meredith calling the RoA. 

I think Anders wanted Elthina dead, because it was Elthina's intervention that kept things simmering but not boiling over.  Anders didn't want things to be just barely tolerable - he wanted things to be intolerable so that the mages would fight back.  Meredith invoking the RoA certainly filled that requirement, but Anders could have gotten his way via a number of other versions of a crackdown on the mages by Meredith.

I agree war was his goal, but the RoA was just one of several means to that end.

The Circle was filled with force tranqulization, rampant rape and forced imprisonment.

What else could the templars do to torture mages? Beat them?

Anders either wanted the RoA or his entire plan makes no sense.

Not true.  ...  They already do torture them.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
It is possble that his plan makes no sense 

I don't know.  I just got the impression that Meredith and Orsino were going to come to blows sooner or later without Elthina to calm them down.  Even if Meredith didn't pull out her biggest weapon.  I can't argue your point about it being hard for the situation to get much worse for the mages though.

Meredith would declare an RoA the second Orsino did something. I mean, she was angling for it in the first place.

More like Meredith would declare an RoA the second the Grand Cleric was indisposed nd couldn't stop her. 

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

More like Meredith would declare an RoA the second the Grand Cleric was indisposed nd couldn't stop her. 

No argument there. I found it hilarious that she declares the RoA without actually finding out if Elthina IS dead. It's not like she's chained to the Chantry. She was out and about when she stumbled onto Orsino and Meredith arguing in Hightown. For all we know, she actually did survive. Far less ridiculous survivals have occurred (Anders, Leliana, Justice).

[Ryzaki]

That's not as stupid as apparently the fact that everyone knows the Chantry was blown up from LOWTOWN. Where you can't even SEE the Chantry.

It boggles the mind.

Unless Hawke has superhero eyesight the only thig he should've saw was the red beam. Yet somehow he psychicall knows it was the Chantry (as does everyone else). 

...Really? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 mai 2011 - 05:16 .

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's not as stupid as apparently the fact that everyone knows the Chantry was blown up from LOWTOWN. Where you can't even SEE the Chantry.

It boggles the mind.

Unless Hawke has superhero eyesight the only thig he should've saw was the red beam. Yet somehow he psychicall knows it was the Chantry (as does everyone else). 

...Really? 

Aww, but that was the only thing Hawke & Co. was good at.  Clairvoyance was on the talent tree, wasn't it?  No?  Phooey.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

No argument there. I found it hilarious that she declares the RoA without actually finding out if Elthina IS dead. It's not like she's chained to the Chantry. She was out and about when she stumbled onto Orsino and Meredith arguing in Hightown. For all we know, she actually did survive. Far less ridiculous survivals have occurred (Anders, Leliana, Justice).

Now that would have been a fun scene:  Elthina walking up and checking out the Meredith-statue at the very end.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

No argument there. I found it hilarious that she declares the RoA without actually finding out if Elthina IS dead. It's not like she's chained to the Chantry. She was out and about when she stumbled onto Orsino and Meredith arguing in Hightown. For all we know, she actually did survive. Far less ridiculous survivals have occurred (Anders, Leliana, Justice).

Now that would have been a fun scene:  Elthina walking up and checking out the Meredith-statue at the very end.

Cullen:  Argh!  We can't carry this thing, it's too heavy!  Can you help pick it up?  There's some room on the right side.
Elthina: But I cannot take sides!

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote..

Not true.  ...  They already do torture them.

Wait, they actually torture them physically? I knew about the rape and imprisonment, but are there beatings mentioned too?