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[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote..

Not true.  ...  They already do torture them.

Wait, they actually torture them physically? I knew about the rape and imprisonment, but are there beatings mentioned too?

In the prologue where you're trying to get into Kirkwall but are stuck in the Gallows, go up to some of the blocked exits and you can often hear someone being beaten.  Oh, and there's this.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You think Anders made the right decision destroying the Kirkwall Chantry?

Uh... no?  lol  But he knew that in blowing up the Chantry, he had touched off a war.  That was his purpose, after all.

If Meredith didn't wipe out the Circle of Kirkwall for an act they weren't responsible for, there wouldn't have been a war. She didn't try to isolate the mages on the Gallows from the general populace, she simply ordered her men to execute the mages immediately, and promptly ignored the man who was actually responsible for the deed.

Either a rite of annulment or an Exalted March was inevitable as of Anders' terrorist debut.  That was the entire plan.

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

Either a rite of annulment or an Exalted March was inevitable as of Anders' terrorist debut.  That was the entire plan.

Ironically, Anders bombing may have saved a lot of lives in Kirkwall. If the status quo kept going, the terrorists in Orlais' Chantry were going to destroy Kirkwall to stop the mage rebellions.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

No, you don't get what I'm saying. When you join a church you are absolutely required to follow itslaws and uphold its beliefs. Failure to do so makes you a heretic. When Lily helped break Jowan free in Origins, she ceased to be a Chantry sister and became a heretic, because she was breaking a core rule of her faith. One of the rules of joining any religion is that you believe in and follow the rest of its rules.

That's... not how people work. I don't think there has ever been a time in history when every single member of a  major relgion was of one mind on every issue.

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not holding them repsonsible for "The Chantry's" actions, I'm holding them responsible for their own damn actions. When Orlais invaded Ferelden, it had support from the Chantry in Ferelden. When an Exalted March is called, the Grand Clerics, Revered Mothers, and sisters of the Chantry encourage others to join the cause by preaching its righteousness. They aren't just sitting back and letting it happen, they are actively encouraging bloodshed in the name of the Maker. And any one who joins the Chantry implicitly agrees to take on this task should the need arise, because it is "the will of the Maker".

Saying that the same applies to mages is completely wrong. Being a mage is not a matter of faith, it's a genetic condition. You might as well have said "If every Christian believes in Christ, then all black people like Kanye West". It would've made just as much sense. Following the rules of the Chantry is a requirement of being in the Chantry. Supporting Anders is not a requirement of being a mage.

No, it's not okay to kill civilians. But no officiated member of the Chantry is a civilian, the Chantry is, at the time of the mage uprising, a military power in its own right, and thus a valid target for an attack. The Templars are not autonomous in DAII, they need permission to perform the Right of Annulment and when an Exalted March is called by the Divine, they drop everything. While having a devout belief in the Maker is not a requirement of becoming a Templar, it certainly helps, and while sympathetic templars like Keran and Thrask do exist, they should and probably would be booted out of the order. The minute they decided to help the mages rebel, they ceased to become Templars and became insubordinates.

Believing in Christ is not the same thing as believing in a crusade but even beyond that:  whenever a nation goes to war, it's civilian population still contirbutes to the war effort in some way. Why are they not legitimate targets but non-combatants in a religion with warriors in it are? Also I was talking mainly about the mages in the mage rebellion. They as a group do all believe in the same cause as Anders does, so why shouldn't they all be treated as murderers?

Plaintiff wrote...
And he murders a lot less than the Chantry ever has. It doesn't have to mean "much" to still make him better than them.

Of course. He's one guy and the Chantry is a thousand year old institution of many people. I know I probably shouldn't go back into real world examples but using pure numbers as justification, Al Qaeda has killed waaaay less people the America has over it's history.

Plaintiff wrote...
Name me one Chantry official, or any believer off the street,  even, who acknowledges the slaughter of innocents by the Chantry ever.

I would agree that individuals should be judged by their actions, but as I said, a requirement of the faith is that you support any action taken in the name of that faith, both internally and externally. So no, Chantry sisters are not innocent.

That is preposterous. By that logic no person has ever admitted that a crime has been committed in the name of their religion. Obviously that's not the case. I know I've already used too many real world examples again but if that
was the case every Christian in the world today would still support the Crusades and the Inquisition. But why would that even apply to just religions? If a citizen of a country doesn't support the actions of their governments do they become enemies of the state? They still have to live by the laws of their country.

But if you insist on in game examples: Brother Genetivi does. He wrote the Codex entry on the Qunar war and he mentions that the chantry soliders wiped out much of the population who had converted to the Qun when they finally regained lost territory.  Plus there's even an eaiser example. I just said that Meredith herself admits that treating mages the way she does isn't fair. But she does it anyway. Does that really make it any better?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 mai 2011 - 06:58 .

[Sister Helen]

@ Carmen_Willow: Your post was reasonable and well written. I agree with what you said. I wish there were more posts like it.

There's a lot of anger on this thread, and it's gotten to the point where it's unpleasant to read.

[Xilizhra]

Sister Helen wrote...

@ Carmen_Willow: Your post was reasonable and well written. I agree with what you said. I wish there were more posts like it.

There's a lot of anger on this thread, and it's gotten to the point where it's unpleasant to read.

Knowledge of injustice on one side, fear on the other. Both produce anger.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

@ Carmen_Willow: Your post was reasonable and well written. I agree with what you said. I wish there were more posts like it.

There's a lot of anger on this thread, and it's gotten to the point where it's unpleasant to read.

Knowledge of injustice on one side, fear on the other. Both produce anger.

What's the point of an RPG if it doesn't invoke some emotion?  Isn't that what people always say in defense of the one true abomination: the All That Remains quest?  

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

@ Carmen_Willow: Your post was reasonable and well written. I agree with what you said. I wish there were more posts like it.

There's a lot of anger on this thread, and it's gotten to the point where it's unpleasant to read.

Knowledge of injustice on one side, fear on the other. Both produce anger.

What's the point of an RPG if it doesn't invoke some emotion?  Isn't that what people always say in defense of the one true abomination: the All That Remains quest?  

Indeed. Though in which ways do you see it as most abominable?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's not as stupid as apparently the fact that everyone knows the Chantry was blown up from LOWTOWN. Where you can't even SEE the Chantry.

It boggles the mind.

Unless Hawke has superhero eyesight the only thig he should've saw was the red beam. Yet somehow he psychicall knows it was the Chantry (as does everyone else). 

...Really? 

....Strange how I did not notice this big mistake.

But so many things are wrong with the plot, it's not even worth exploring anymore.

[HSHAW]

Fun fact: A Harvester is technically a form of abomination. What does this mean? It means that Orsino thought turning himself into an abomination would help the situation in the Mage Ending.

Since the Harvester construct is required to be possessed by a demon as part of the process of consructing one.

See: http://social.biowar...29694/3#7436060

Modifié par HSHAW, 26 mai 2011 - 01:39 .

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote..
In the prologue where you're trying to get into Kirkwall but are stuck in the Gallows, go up to some of the blocked exits and you can often hear someone being beaten.  Oh, and there's this.

I knew the prologue bit, but I am pretty sure that was meant to be refugees. That being said, thanks for the imagine. That just emphasizes further for me why it's clear Anders wanted the RoA declared.

And also that we never got to kill Karras if he surved in the mage ending.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Either a rite of annulment or an Exalted March was inevitable as of Anders' terrorist debut.  That was the entire plan.

Ironically, Anders bombing may have saved a lot of lives in Kirkwall. If the status quo kept going, the terrorists in Orlais' Chantry were going to destroy Kirkwall to stop the mage rebellions.

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.  Brilliant plan. 

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mai 2011 - 03:04 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That's not as stupid as apparently the fact that everyone knows the Chantry was blown up from LOWTOWN. Where you can't even SEE the Chantry.

It boggles the mind.

Unless Hawke has superhero eyesight the only thig he should've saw was the red beam. Yet somehow he psychicall knows it was the Chantry (as does everyone else). 

...Really? 

....Strange how I did not notice this big mistake.

But so many things are wrong with the plot, it's not even worth exploring anymore.

It's not hard to infer from the fact that they were talking about Elthina, Anders appears and says "there can be no compromise" and then the sky goes poopy pink.  This, even if Hawke never heard Anders' request to distract the Grand Cleric.

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Either a rite of annulment or an Exalted March was inevitable as of Anders' terrorist debut.  That was the entire plan.

Ironically, Anders bombing may have saved a lot of lives in Kirkwall. If the status quo kept going, the terrorists in Orlais' Chantry were going to destroy Kirkwall to stop the mage rebellions.

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.  Brilliant plan. 

His goal was to get the mages off their asses. Which is exactly what happened. Can't argue with results.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Either a rite of annulment or an Exalted March was inevitable as of Anders' terrorist debut.  That was the entire plan.

Ironically, Anders bombing may have saved a lot of lives in Kirkwall. If the status quo kept going, the terrorists in Orlais' Chantry were going to destroy Kirkwall to stop the mage rebellions.

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.  Brilliant plan. 

There wasn't an Exalted March from what we can tell, there was a Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith.

Could it have been handled differently? Of course it could have. People in Dragon Age 2 could have possessed intelligence and not all acted like they were given a lobotomy, Orsino and Meredith could have been something other than ridiculous at the end of Act III, and Hawke could have been proactive instead of reactive, but this is what we were given - a story of failure.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There wasn't an Exalted March from what we can tell, there was a Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith.

And then a war.  Kirkwall was doomed either way.

But I'm sick of talking about this.  It's not a great story and there's no satisfaction in discussing it.  I'm just going to mentally collect the interesting lore bits and try to forget about DA2 otherwise.

[Rifneno]

HSHAW wrote...

Fun fact: A Harvester is technically a form of abomination. What does this mean? It means that Orsino thought turning himself into an abomination would help the situation in the Mage Ending.

Since the Harvester construct is required to be possessed by a demon as part of the process of consructing one.

See: http://social.biowar...29694/3#7436060

We already knew that scene was incredibly dumb. Anyway, I'm still happy I got an answer to that. Been bothering me for the longest time. Or since a week after the game came out, whichever.

In Exile wrote...

I knew the prologue bit, but I am pretty sure that was meant to be refugees. That being said, thanks for the imagine. That just emphasizes further for me why it's clear Anders wanted the RoA declared.

And also that we never got to kill Karras if he surved in the mage ending.

Yeah, I suppose it could be refugees.  But we're in the Gallows and the game seems to be about the mage-templar conflict so I just figured it was a mage.  I don't see how it means anything about Anders though?

I can't believe anyone ever lets Karras live past Act I.  =/

Addai67 wrote...

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.  Brilliant plan. 

It always makes me chuckle when people talk about things that mages guaranteed to happen when we know for a fact they didn't happen by the ending. 

Plaintiff wrote...

His goal was to get the mages off their asses. Which is exactly what happened. Can't argue with results.

This.

[HSHAW]

Rifneno wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Fun fact: A Harvester is technically a form of abomination. What does this mean? It means that Orsino thought turning himself into an abomination would help the situation in the Mage Ending.

Since the Harvester construct is required to be possessed by a demon as part of the process of consructing one.

See: http://social.biowar...29694/3#7436060

We already knew that scene was incredibly dumb. Anyway, I'm still happy I got an answer to that. Been bothering me for the longest time. Or since a week after the game came out, whichever.

I still have to wonder why they chose to make Orsino dumb enough to turn himself into an abomination in the mage ending....

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.  Brilliant plan. 

It always makes me chuckle when people talk about things that mages guaranteed to happen when we know for a fact they didn't happen by the ending. 

So that whole world war thing, Cass was just making that up I guess?

Forget it.  Talking to you and LobselVith is head <--> wall.

[Rifneno]

HSHAW wrote...

I still have to wonder why they chose to make Orsino dumb enough to turn himself into an abomination in the mage ending....

Was it really any dumber than what we already thought he was doing?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That's not as stupid as apparently the fact that everyone knows the Chantry was blown up from LOWTOWN. Where you can't even SEE the Chantry.

It boggles the mind.

Unless Hawke has superhero eyesight the only thig he should've saw was the red beam. Yet somehow he psychicall knows it was the Chantry (as does everyone else). 

...Really? 

....Strange how I did not notice this big mistake.

But so many things are wrong with the plot, it's not even worth exploring anymore.

It's not hard to infer from the fact that they were talking about Elthina, Anders appears and says "there can be no compromise" and then the sky goes poopy pink.  This, even if Hawke never heard Anders' request to distract the Grand Cleric.

What if he blew up the Viscount's office?
Was they really so positively sure that he hit the Chantry?

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.&nbsp; Brilliant plan.&nbsp;

It always makes me chuckle when people talk about things that mages guaranteed to happen when we know for a fact they didn't happen by the ending.&nbsp;

So that whole world war thing, Cass was just making that up I guess?

Forget it.  Talking to you and LobselVith is head <--> wall.

The war that the Chantry is trying to stop is an exalted march?  Wow, never woulda saw that coming.  Sorry, don't mean to make you hit your head against a wall.  It's not fair to the wall.

[Addai]

Cassandra is trying to stop the war, not the Chantry.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

I still have to wonder why they chose to make Orsino dumb enough to turn himself into an abomination in the mage ending....

Was it really any dumber than what we already thought he was doing?

At first I thought this was the dumbest scene in the game.  When I played it through again, I noticed that the cutscene has a bunch of Templars running towards your little group before he does it.  I forgot that the first time so I remembered it as Orsino just throwing his life away when we were clearly winning.  So, now it's just a dumb scene to me rather than the dumbest. 

I currently have a toss up for dumbest, I can't decide between several scenes like standing by while Bethany is taken away to the circle or letting Petrice walk away after Shepherding Wolves etc.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So he made sure there was going to be an Exalted March.&nbsp; Brilliant plan.&nbsp;

It always makes me chuckle when people talk about things that mages guaranteed to happen when we know for a fact they didn't happen by the ending.&nbsp;

So that whole world war thing, Cass was just making that up I guess?

Forget it.  Talking to you and LobselVith is head <--> wall.

World war of the mage circles vs. the Templars.  I never read it as an exalted march by the Chantry.  Doesn't it say the Templars have left the Chantry to pursue the mages on their own?  At this point it is probably so spread out and guerilla warfare like (since the mages are a much smaller force) that it wouldn't seem like an exalted march at all even if one had been called.