1207 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Man, I thought these mage-templar arguments couldn't get any more meaningless.  I really wish this whole story line had been something we got in a codex after the fact.  I like the story less the more I think about it.

Indeed. It's badly written.
It's almost written like a political satyre.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

...But don't sit there and try to claim that an angry mob's demand makes it necessary to slaughter innocent people.  Between the Guard and her templars, Meredith could easily have maintained order among the populace.

The lynch mob is actually one of the worst "justifications" for calling the RoA.  I'm surprised the writers even put it in there. 

1)  There's the fact that, as you point out, Meredith had asked for permission to do the RoA long before that night. 
2)  Meredith doesn't give a darn about public outcries when she prevents the appointment of a proper Viscount
3)  The mages in the circle were Meredith's responsibility, not the lynch mob.  She had a duty to protect the innocent mages from the mob, not the other way around.
4)  Going along with the whims of a bloodthirsty crowd is pretty much never the "right" thing to do

There are probably more reasons, but I think the whole thing is ridiculous based on the first point anyway.

It doesn't surprise me that the writers put that justification in Meredith's mouth.  It actually makes sense to me, being a natural human reaction.  Not a just one, not one based in logic, but it's nevertheless a predictable response. She isn't wrong that the people would scream for blood and would probably want to storm the Circle and rip apart the mages.  But since when do we give in to that sort of thing and call it justice?

I've said elsewhere that since Elthina had blocked Meredith's request for Annulment once, I believe wholeheartedly that eventually, had Anders not done the job himself, Elthina would have met with an accident.  Whether spurred by the idol or just her own deep-seated hatred for mages, Meredith is exactly the sort of personality I could see arranging for the Grand Cleric's assassination both to remove the obstacle blocking the Right and to justify it in the mind of the populace.  Which doesn't have anything to do with the story that actually happened, except that I think Meredith was secretly grateful to Anders, in a sick sort of way, for saving her the trouble.

We see that the poorest of Kirkwall love Anders for his unconditional healing, and then there are those who've lost loved ones to Tranquility or some other fate.  I'm disinclined to believe that all of these people would have suddenly reviled Anders for destroying the Chantry.  People are never that unified, even if supporters of Chantry-jenga would be a small number.  Anyway, we saw a mob's willingness to fight and die for his sake.  What if someone had killed him in such a spectacular and public way?  Would anyone be willing to slaughter the templars in answer to their demand for blood?

Modifié par Silfren, 26 mai 2011 - 08:58 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Man, I thought these mage-templar arguments couldn't get any more meaningless.  I really wish this whole story line had been something we got in a codex after the fact.  I like the story less the more I think about it.

Indeed. It's badly written.
It's almost written like a political satyre.

It would have been so much more interesting had they dealt more with the mage fraternities and internal Chantry fracture rather than just resort to a combination of a hellmouth, "the lyrium did it" and "the Fade spirit did it," with a hapless Hawke standing by.

And the problem is, they have to build on this somehow.  I hope the writers can fill in the blanks and carry it forward in a more compelling way than the game does.

[Silfren]

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
No, it isn't more complicated than that.  Meredith was looking for an excuse to Annul the Circle well before Anders blew up the Chantry.  She used his action as an excuse to follow through with it.  She was eager to kill the mages, and her statement about the people wanting blood is a ridiculously flimsy excuse.  If it had been true, it would have been just to strip Anders of his mana and turn him over to the lynchmob.  But don't sit there and try to claim that an angry mob's demand makes it necessary to slaughter innocent people.  Between the Guard and her templars, Meredith could easily have maintained order among the populace.

Just because you don't buy Meredith's rationale (and I never said she didn't want to all along- Elthina was the one who stood in her way) doesn't mean that there aren't others.  Meredith already assumes the Circle is hopelessly corrupt, but Hawke can find other reasons to agree with her than just the one she gives.  "Easily" maintained order?  Wow, well... whatever.  And, I don't appreciate the tone of your response.

I don't especially care whether you appreciate my tone or not.  **** at me when I've resorted to personal attacks if you like, but my tone...?  Whatever.  Now that that's out of the way...

I'm sorry, are we talking Hawke's rationale, or Meredith's, or your view on whether Meredith was right?  Hawke can rationalize, with some logic, that once the Right has been called, her hand has been forced and she has to help Annul the Circle because the mages will be running amok out of desperation.  I can buy that rationale, from the standpoint of Hawke feeling like Meredith has left her with no choice but to stem the chaos created by calling for the Right.  Plenty of players have talked about roleplaying their Hawkes to hate themselves for the choice but feeling it was unavoidable.  If I ever manage to do a pro-templar run, that'll probably be my Hawke's perspective.  But if you're talking about Meredith's reasoning, well.  Meredith was asking for the Right of Annulment prior to the Chantry explosion, and she'd been denied by Elthina.  I take that to mean that Elthina didn't think Meredith's reasons for sound.  Also, there's no actual evidence that the Circle was corrupt.  We hear Meredith declaring that she will search the Circle for evidence of blood magic, and Orsino blocking her.  I could have accepted Meredith taking Orsino's attempt to block her as sufficient reason to call for Annulment, as you could argue that he's deliberately trying to hide something.  But Meredith doesn't say anything at all about Annulment until Elthina is dead and gone, and uses Anders' act as her justification.  She didn't name any other reason at all.  At that point, she didn't even fall back on her suspicion of blood magic, for cripe's sake.  It was all about Anders' blowing up the Chantry.  And if YOU are arguing that Meredith's assertion that the mob would demand justice is a reasonable motive, then I again call bull****.  Meredith and her templars are an army, a military force specially trained to counter magical attacks.  A mob of non-mages probably isn't going to be much of a threat, especially given that the Gallows is on an island.  And Meredith has hardly demonstrated any sort of squeamishness. I don't think she'd be shaking in her boots at the idea of having to put down a mob.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ok, I watched the epilogue on youtube and Varric says...

"So how is hearing all this going to help? You've already lost all the circles. In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

Cassandra responds: "Not all of us desire war, Varric."

She does not deny what he says about the Templars leaving though.

That dialogue is telling.  If it had been only a minority of templars that left the Chantry, Varric would have said as much.  He wouldn't phrase it in a way that implied the Chantry lost virtually all of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think "rationale" and "Meredith" can ever be associated together in Act 3. At least sober sane rationale.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think "rationale" and "Meredith" can ever be associated together in Act 3. At least sober sane rationale.

I don't think "intelligent" and "Hawke" can be associated together throughout DA2. And I definitely agree about Meredith.

I'm starting to like you.

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think "rationale" and "Meredith" can ever be associated together in Act 3. At least sober sane rationale.

She wasn't entirely rational even before then, but once act 3 is started she's pretty much looney toons.

She was never fair minded towards the mages, but it is still quite noticable when you get to act 3 and she's actually bloodthirsty.

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...

Cassandra clearly considers herself to still be working for the Chantry, and is working with Leliana, the "Left hand of the Divine". Though of course the "Chantry has fallen to pieces", so there's likely a pro-templar faction preaching holy war against the mages.

I think you can see the chantry from Lowtown

Chantry, before Anders

No Chantry, after Anders

 

Thanks for that. 

That Chantry is huge. Just how many peopl were in it?  

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...
That Chantry is huge. Just how many peopl were in it?  

Sadly, we don't know any more about that than we do exactly how many mages were still in the circle.  I suppose in a way it's kinda fair, as Hawke would not necessarily be privy to roll calls or anything, but it does leave the player wondering.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shows a lot that you're thinking about how many people died, while I am thinking how Hightown is capable of withstanding siege for months when the stairs leading up to it are apparently not that long and pretty wide.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That Chantry is huge. Just how many peopl were in it?  

Sadly, we don't know any more about that than we do exactly how many mages were still in the circle.  I suppose in a way it's kinda fair, as Hawke would not necessarily be privy to roll calls or anything, but it does leave the player wondering.

What did Quasimodo in the bells ever do to deserve this?

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shows a lot that you're thinking about how many people died, while I am thinking how Hightown is capable of withstanding siege for months when the stairs leading up to it are apparently not that long and pretty wide.

Hey now.  

Maybe they learned how to accurately use funnels to their advantage? I dunno. 

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That Chantry is huge. Just how many peopl were in it?  

Sadly, we don't know any more about that than we do exactly how many mages were still in the circle.  I suppose in a way it's kinda fair, as Hawke would not necessarily be privy to roll calls or anything, but it does leave the player wondering.

Yeah it does. 

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That Chantry is huge. Just how many peopl were in it?  

Sadly, we don't know any more about that than we do exactly how many mages were still in the circle.  I suppose in a way it's kinda fair, as Hawke would not necessarily be privy to roll calls or anything, but it does leave the player wondering.

What did Quasimodo in the bells ever do to deserve this?

Woke people up FAR to early in the morning. 

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
No, it isn't more complicated than that.  Meredith was looking for an excuse to Annul the Circle well before Anders blew up the Chantry.  She used his action as an excuse to follow through with it.  She was eager to kill the mages, and her statement about the people wanting blood is a ridiculously flimsy excuse.  If it had been true, it would have been just to strip Anders of his mana and turn him over to the lynchmob.  But don't sit there and try to claim that an angry mob's demand makes it necessary to slaughter innocent people.  Between the Guard and her templars, Meredith could easily have maintained order among the populace.

Just because you don't buy Meredith's rationale (and I never said she didn't want to all along- Elthina was the one who stood in her way) doesn't mean that there aren't others.  Meredith already assumes the Circle is hopelessly corrupt, but Hawke can find other reasons to agree with her than just the one she gives.  "Easily" maintained order?  Wow, well... whatever.  And, I don't appreciate the tone of your response.

I don't especially care whether you appreciate my tone or not.  **** at me when I've resorted to personal attacks if you like, but my tone...?  Whatever.  Now that that's out of the way...

Specifically the phrase "don't sit there and..."

But, I guess you're assuming I really care.  It's nice someone can feel passionate about the story enough to be snippy, I guess.

I'm sorry, are we talking Hawke's rationale, or Meredith's, or your view on whether Meredith was right? 

I said that the Circle being annulled is not simply a matter of vengeance.  Not even for Meredith, who's wanted it all along and not only because of the reason she gives after Anders' poop bomb- what she says then is that there will be a mob demanding it, but obviously she has other reasons since she's been pushing for it all along.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mai 2011 - 09:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That Chantry is huge. Just how many peopl were in it?  

Sadly, we don't know any more about that than we do exactly how many mages were still in the circle.  I suppose in a way it's kinda fair, as Hawke would not necessarily be privy to roll calls or anything, but it does leave the player wondering.

What did Quasimodo in the bells ever do to deserve this?

Woke people up FAR to early in the morning. 

Now I understand why Kirkwall is full of lunatic idiots. Not enough sleep.

I mean seriously, look at Meredith's eyes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 09:32 .

[Giggles_Manically]

DAMN YOU QUASIMODO!

[Silfren]

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
No, it isn't more complicated than that.  Meredith was looking for an excuse to Annul the Circle well before Anders blew up the Chantry.  She used his action as an excuse to follow through with it.  She was eager to kill the mages, and her statement about the people wanting blood is a ridiculously flimsy excuse.  If it had been true, it would have been just to strip Anders of his mana and turn him over to the lynchmob.  But don't sit there and try to claim that an angry mob's demand makes it necessary to slaughter innocent people.  Between the Guard and her templars, Meredith could easily have maintained order among the populace.

Just because you don't buy Meredith's rationale (and I never said she didn't want to all along- Elthina was the one who stood in her way) doesn't mean that there aren't others.  Meredith already assumes the Circle is hopelessly corrupt, but Hawke can find other reasons to agree with her than just the one she gives.  "Easily" maintained order?  Wow, well... whatever.  And, I don't appreciate the tone of your response.

I don't especially care whether you appreciate my tone or not.  **** at me when I've resorted to personal attacks if you like, but my tone...?  Whatever.  Now that that's out of the way...

Specifically the phrase "don't sit there and..."

But, I guess you're assuming I really care.  It's nice someone can feel passionate about the story enough to be snippy, I guess.

I'm sorry, are we talking Hawke's rationale, or Meredith's, or your view on whether Meredith was right? 

I said that the Circle being annulled is not simply a matter of vengeance.  Not even for Meredith, who's wanted it all along and not only because of the reason she gives after Anders' poop bomb- what she says then is that there will be a mob demanding it, but obviously she has other reasons since she's been pushing for it all along.

There it is again: "poop bomb."  Do you call gunpowder a poop bomb?  Because sela petrae and drakestone are saltpeter and sulphur, respectively, the components of gunpowder.

There was no reason behind Meredith's decision.  Her excuses were just that, excuses, not justifiable reasons based on any evidence that the Circle mages were beyond redemption.  We're not shown anywhere that her reasons are based on anything but her own paranoia.  And no, apostates in the street don't have anything to do with Circle mages locked on the Gallows.  I already picked apart why her assertion that the people will demand blood is worthless.

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...
There it is again: "poop bomb."  Do you call gunpowder a poop bomb?  Because sela petrae and drakestone are saltpeter and sulphur, respectively, the components of gunpowder.

Yes, I know.  Fertilizer bombs are still in vogue among terrorists.
 
If gunpowder components were collected in a sewer I guess you could call it poop powder.   

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

... Anders' poop bomb

Isn't it actually pee?  Or rather potassium nitrate that through a chemical process forms out of stale urine.

Sela petrae is thinly disguised saltpeter and drakestone is sulfur. 

Anders makes gunpowder which, adding a healthy dose of magic, creates the explosion.