1207 ответов в этой теме

[Sanguinerin]

I did not like what Anders did. I find the theoretical Circle to be a good institution, where mages can be disciplined and educated in a safe environment. Is it perfect? No, there's work that needs to be done to make the lot of the mages better. However, I do think that it stands for something important and necessary.

I also like the idea of the Chantry. It gives people comfort, hope, peace, purpose, etc. It teaches morals and offers guidance. Is it perfect? Also no. The over-zealous take things too far, but that can be said of all extremists. Look at Anders. He did go too far.

I can't support the killing of innocents to drive a cause, either. I only wish that it was an option to make Anders tranquil. I don't think he'll ever survive past DAII for me.

[zebrakeys]

Well blowing it up certainly wasn't the correct approach

[Nodscouter]

I liked it a lot. Shame Anders seems to feel remorse, but meh. Can't always get what you want.

[SirOccam]

Of course not. I liked Elthina...she seemed to be the only reasonable one in the whole damn city. Sadly, reluctance to side strictly with one extreme or another is apparently deserving of death.

As a player, I was just kind of shocked, then dismayed that I couldn't find a way to prevent it, but overall just entertained by the high dramatic value. Most of my Hawkes have been horrified and furious by turns. Most of them are diplomatic, peaceful types.

[HTTP 404]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

I certainly was. The Grand Cleric is the most useless person there. Not only did she not watch her lunatic fringe groups carefully, she didn't try to take a stand for anything. You could say it was due to her religious beliefs but if that were true she would've been more firm in remaining neutral to the politics around Kirkwall.

What does she do? Absolutely nothing. All she ever offered anyone were a bunch of empty anaologies about the Maker.

Maybe some of you might disagree, but I think even a religion needs to take a stand in conflicts like that. The Chantry was just hypocritically ignoring atrocities and turning about face to their own involvement in some instances. The Grand Cleric didn't bother doing a thing. She just strikes me as irresponsible and two-faced behind that kind smile.

She's a coward and I'm glad Anders was able to make use of her. After all, in politics, if you're not going to get more power then you can sure as hell bet that someone else will. It's partly because the Chantry didn't take a stand that the situation deteriorated as it did.

I got a degree in Criminal Justice and this is what you call "victim blaming"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

I certainly was. The Grand Cleric is the most useless person there. Not only did she not watch her lunatic fringe groups carefully, she didn't try to take a stand for anything. You could say it was due to her religious beliefs but if that were true she would've been more firm in remaining neutral to the politics around Kirkwall.

What does she do? Absolutely nothing. All she ever offered anyone were a bunch of empty anaologies about the Maker.

Maybe some of you might disagree, but I think even a religion needs to take a stand in conflicts like that. The Chantry was just hypocritically ignoring atrocities and turning about face to their own involvement in some instances. The Grand Cleric didn't bother doing a thing. She just strikes me as irresponsible and two-faced behind that kind smile.

She's a coward and I'm glad Anders was able to make use of her. After all, in politics, if you're not going to get more power then you can sure as hell bet that someone else will. It's partly because the Chantry didn't take a stand that the situation deteriorated as it did.

Most people in Kirkwall didn't take a stand in the Mage-Templar conflcit. Should Anders have murdered them all too? Is "not helping mages" a crime worthy of execution? What about all the other people in the Chantry at the time? Like say those Revered Sisters who's apparently only role in the game is talk about things like feeding orphans whenever you walk past them?

[Rifneno]

SirOccam wrote...

Of course not. I liked Elthina...she seemed to be the only reasonable one in the whole damn city. Sadly, reluctance to side strictly with one extreme or another is apparently deserving of death.

She DID take a side. Inaction is an action itself really. It was her job to ensure the knight commander doesn't ****** all over the Chantry's own law at every turn. Elthina herself appointed the monster responsible for Kirkwall's mage problems and she turned a blind eye to criminal abuse time and time again. She made this mess and she actively avoided cleaning it up. So yes, it is poetic justice that she slips and breaks her neck on it. As I've said before, the only injustice of Elthina's death was that she didn't suffer to the point of suicide like so many mages did because of her.

HTTP 404 wrote...

I got a degree in Criminal Justice and this is what you call "victim blaming"

Everyone on the Internet is an expert at everything. Anyone got some salt?

[upsettingshorts]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Everyone keeps throwing 'terrorism' around every which way. How many of you realize that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Don't believe me?

Oh god it's like this post is pushing all my buttons.

The saying, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is not describing an either/or.  It's about public perception.

You can be a terrorist and a freedom fighter, like Anders.  You can also be one and not the other.  

Сообщение изменено: Upsettingshorts, 24 Май 2011 - 07:11 .

[PlumPaul93]

Nope just another forced event to keep the story going. Nothing really new.

[ForgeDark]

I don't think Elthina deserved to die for being passive, but I still supported what Anders did. You can't sit around doing nothing - while you spend your time convincing Meredith peacefully more mages are being made tranquil. It becomes obvious very quickly that Meredith has too much power, and that she is going to continue down the same road. There comes a time for action.

[upsettingshorts]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Nope just another forced event to keep the story going. Nothing really new.

... are you implying other story-based cRPGs do not do this?  Especially for major, worldstate-altering events?

Because that'd be silly.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Although you could refuse to help him infiltrate the Chantry.  Which is something, considering the plot significance of said event basically being more than high enough to justify it being mandatory.

Except then you can also tell Cullen Anders is plotting something with Anders in the party. And Cullen will say that he already suspects which apostate that hangs out with Hawke it is.

Someone was holding on to the idiot ball that day...

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, the game doesn't handle a few but-thou-musts all that well.

[LyndseyCousland]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Everyone keeps throwing 'terrorism' around every which way. How many of you realize that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Don't believe me? Look at the American revolution. The Founders of America were considered terrorists to the legitimate government of the King at the time.

Point?

[PlumPaul93]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Nope just another forced event to keep the story going. Nothing really new.

... are you implying other story-based cRPGs do not do this?  Especially for major, worldstate-altering events?

Because that'd be silly.

I haven't played that many RPG's other than the common ones that have come out in the past 4 years so I don't really know if it's commonplace but I'd assume it is. Nothing really new could imply that I meant nothing really new in DA2 or nothing really new in RPG's but I meant it both ways. I would have been a little more happy if the game at the very least made it look like I tried to stop it or new something was up. Declining to help anders (basically giving him a slap on the wrist) and I guess what you could call warning the grand cleric doesn't cut it for me.

[Wolfborn Son]

I'd be more sympathetic to Anders' actions if he picked a more suitable target. The Gallows would have been better, considering it would have taken out the actually source of the problem; the Knight-Commander and the Circle itself.


Instead, he has to pull a Timothy McVeigh and blow up a building with a heavy population of "innocents". Good bye sisters who help the poor, any poor sap that happened to claim shelter in sanctuary that night, and any other poor sap that happened to be close to the Chantry that night.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yeah, the game doesn't handle a few but-thou-musts all that well.

The weird thing is, that scene didn't need to be there. But it is. Anders even protests that you're ratting him out to Cullen. It's just weird.

[LyndseyCousland]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

I'd be more sympathetic to Anders' actions if he picked a more suitable target. The Gallows would have been better, considering it would have taken out the actually source of the problem; the Knight-Commander and the Circle itself.


Instead, he has to pull a Timothy McVeigh and blow up a building with a heavy population of "innocents". Good bye sisters who help the poor, any poor sap that happened to claim shelter in sanctuary that night, and any other poor sap that happened to be close to the Chantry that night.

There are innocent mages in the Gallows. Anders wouldn't have gone for that.

[In Exile]

LyndseyCousland wrote...

There are innocent mages in the Gallows. Anders wouldn't have gone for that.

Anders wanted to remove any source of compromise and push Meredith to invoke the ROA. He was perfectly willing to sacrifice mages for the sake of the cause, and he has a lot of Kirkwall mage blood on his hands as a result of what he did with the Chantry.

He wanted a symbol and he wanted a war between the mages and templars. He destroyed the Chantry because there would be no going back.

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...

Anders wanted to remove any source of compromise and push Meredith to invoke the ROA. He was perfectly willing to sacrifice mages for the sake of the cause, and he has a lot of Kirkwall mage blood on his hands as a result of what he did with the Chantry.

He wanted a symbol and he wanted a war between the mages and templars. He destroyed the Chantry because there would be no going back.

It's surprising to me how many people miss that.

Anders couldn't have made his intentions more clear.

Сообщение изменено: Upsettingshorts, 24 Май 2011 - 08:01 .

[MadMoskus]

Agamo45 wrote...

I was happy that Anders gave me an excuse to get rid of those pesky mages once and for all. Starting with him.

This

[themonty72]

And people say this game sucks yeah right....its political than ever. No I wasn't happy about his decision and I didn't kill him for it either. The grand cleric stood to  the side and did  nothing while mages was abused killed and made into Tranquils.  She was quilty way before Anders blew the Chantry. She keep saying put it into the makers hands. Im sure the makers didnt like abuse, mureder, and left wiih no mind toward mages.

Сообщение изменено: themonty72, 30 Май 2011 - 09:33 .

[Melca36]

I rolled a couple of characters where I didn't kill him and ran off with him. I don't think mages should be oppressed.

If mages are so feared, why don't the people of Thedas just kill them? And the reason they don't because mages are utilized when they are needed, which in essence makes people kind of hypocritical.


I seem to recall Riordan mentioning needing a physician in Origins. How many "physicians" are in Thedas? And how many would actually treat commoners and the poor? Mages are needed.

This upcoming war is not going to be just Mage VS Templar
There will people siding with the mages and there will be mages fighting blood mages.

What Anders did was wrong but while I have killed him some games, I believe he needs to see the consequences of his actions.