1207 réponses à ce sujet

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Silfren wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

It was not.

The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power.  The templars are under the rule of the Chantry regardless of the fact that they stole political power in Kirkwall years before.  Technically, Meredith has not been voted by the citizens of Kirkwall to be their Viscount and the game never explained the actual system on how a Viscount was decided like they did with the ruling monarch of Ferelden.  The title of Viscount came about from prior occupation.  The Divine is over the Andrastian ruled nations, their chantries. The Grand Clerics of each nation are next in rank, the Revered Mother, Laysisters, then a novice.  Templars because of their number and their outing of the previous Viscount is the only reason Meredith felt she had the power.  Even though by law of the citizens of Kirkwall she didn't. Viscount Dumar didn't want to oppose the Chantry political power and followed along with Meredith to a certain extent.  Meredith is the one who put Dumar in his office to begin with. 

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.  She was totally out of control by then.  The Grand Cleric is the only one within Kirkwall that had that authority.  She also had the authority to put a stop to  the abuse of the Templars who weren't following chantry laws and their abuse of the mages.  The Grand Cleric also mentions and realizes that Meredith is picking on Orsino and the mages she states so in her comments before she asks a templar to escort Orsino back to the Gallows.  So she knew it was going on and once again she doesn't put a stop to it.  She should have reigned in Meredith way before the events of Act 3.  I also agree with a poster above that Meredith because of her personal family history shouldn't have ever held the position of Knight Commander of Kirkwall.  Once again her goes right back to the Grand Cleric in making this decison years before.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?  It's done off screen so how do we know? Just because he wanted to sneak into the Chantry doesn't mean he actually planted that bomb, he only admits to accepting justice inside him.  Though he probably did plant the bomb. My last playthough I had the thought what if Meredith is the one that set that bomb with the magic from the idol somehow and not Anders?  I'm sure she didn't like being told to go to her room like a good little girl in front of the citizens of Kirkwall by the Grand Cleric.  Even Varric states at the ending with Cassandra it could have been the idol all along, he as good as tells Cassandra to take her pick on who she wants as villan.  I can also Trevinter in the background causing havoc in the whole mess.

If Anders did set the bomb, was he justified and did I agree?  Well it really depends on how I roleplay the game.  Some of my Hawkes who will be mages will agree and especially with Bethany being a mage within the circle.  If Carver is alive he will side with the templars.  But to blow up innocent people, no I didn't agree with the method choosen and I didn't like the fact Hawke didn't have a choice in stopping what happened.   I should have had the opportunity as a player in helping the save the chantry and the people within or allow it to be blown up.  I never had a choice as a player and this ticked me off.

Anders makes it clear himself that he set the bomb.  That, at least, is not in question.

I don't see it that way but as I said he probably did.  All I'm saying is that we never see who actually plants the bomb, it could have been Meredith since it is done off screen, I"m just giving a what if possibility.  A player could also say that it was Justice period and not Anders.  Anders does say he took Justice into himself and changed his soul forever.  I see Justice in control of Anders the more I play the game, right from the start of the game.  That is Justice when we first go to Anders Clinic, since he glows blue.  With Acts II and III we see Justice more and more and less of Anders. 

If you go with the 'what if' possibility and allow yourself to see it was Meredith this does play into her hand of invoking the Right of Annulment.  This also plays into Orsino's hand with the Grand Cleric not protecting mages.  Anders/Justice even calls out Orsino on this at the beginning of the Last Straw.   Anders could also be just admitting his involvement with the underground railroad in helping mages escape.  Once again he never fully says right out he set the bomb, he is very cryptic in his answer.  My first playthrough I killed him and was his love interest, the more I play the game I'm starting to realize this might not be the case.  If nothing else it would be a great start to writing a fanfiction for DA2 with this possible outcome instead. 

[Silfren]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

It was not.

The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power.  The templars are under the rule of the Chantry regardless of the fact that they stole political power in Kirkwall years before.  Technically, Meredith has not been voted by the citizens of Kirkwall to be their Viscount and the game never explained the actual system on how a Viscount was decided like they did with the ruling monarch of Ferelden.  The title of Viscount came about from prior occupation.  The Divine is over the Andrastian ruled nations, their chantries. The Grand Clerics of each nation are next in rank, the Revered Mother, Laysisters, then a novice.  Templars because of their number and their outing of the previous Viscount is the only reason Meredith felt she had the power.  Even though by law of the citizens of Kirkwall she didn't. Viscount Dumar didn't want to oppose the Chantry political power and followed along with Meredith to a certain extent.  Meredith is the one who put Dumar in his office to begin with. 

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.  She was totally out of control by then.  The Grand Cleric is the only one within Kirkwall that had that authority.  She also had the authority to put a stop to  the abuse of the Templars who weren't following chantry laws and their abuse of the mages.  The Grand Cleric also mentions and realizes that Meredith is picking on Orsino and the mages she states so in her comments before she asks a templar to escort Orsino back to the Gallows.  So she knew it was going on and once again she doesn't put a stop to it.  She should have reigned in Meredith way before the events of Act 3.  I also agree with a poster above that Meredith because of her personal family history shouldn't have ever held the position of Knight Commander of Kirkwall.  Once again her goes right back to the Grand Cleric in making this decison years before.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?  It's done off screen so how do we know? Just because he wanted to sneak into the Chantry doesn't mean he actually planted that bomb, he only admits to accepting justice inside him.  Though he probably did plant the bomb. My last playthough I had the thought what if Meredith is the one that set that bomb with the magic from the idol somehow and not Anders?  I'm sure she didn't like being told to go to her room like a good little girl in front of the citizens of Kirkwall by the Grand Cleric.  Even Varric states at the ending with Cassandra it could have been the idol all along, he as good as tells Cassandra to take her pick on who she wants as villan.  I can also Trevinter in the background causing havoc in the whole mess.

If Anders did set the bomb, was he justified and did I agree?  Well it really depends on how I roleplay the game.  Some of my Hawkes who will be mages will agree and especially with Bethany being a mage within the circle.  If Carver is alive he will side with the templars.  But to blow up innocent people, no I didn't agree with the method choosen and I didn't like the fact Hawke didn't have a choice in stopping what happened.   I should have had the opportunity as a player in helping the save the chantry and the people within or allow it to be blown up.  I never had a choice as a player and this ticked me off.

Anders makes it clear himself that he set the bomb.  That, at least, is not in question.

I don't see it that way but as I said he probably did.  All I'm saying is that we never see who actually plants the bomb, it could have been Meredith since it is done off screen, I"m just giving a what if possibility.  A player could also say that it was Justice period and not Anders.  Anders does say he took Justice into himself and changed his soul forever.  I see Justice in control of Anders the more I play the game, right from the start of the game.  That is Justice when we first go to Anders Clinic, since he glows blue.  With Acts II and III we see Justice more and more and less of Anders. 

If you go with the 'what if' possibility and allow yourself to see it was Meredith this does play into her hand of invoking the Right of Annulment.  This also plays into Orsino's hand with the Grand Cleric not protecting mages.  Anders/Justice even calls out Orsino on this at the beginning of the Last Straw.   Anders could also be just admitting his involvement with the underground railroad in helping mages escape.  Once again he never fully says right out he set the bomb, he is very cryptic in his answer.  My first playthrough I killed him and was his love interest, the more I play the game I'm starting to realize this might not be the case.  If nothing else it would be a great start to writing a fanfiction for DA2 with this possible outcome instead. 

Not to be combative , but you're making a ridiculous stretch.  Yes, we DO know that Anders set the bomb.  He makes it abundantly clear himself.  Playing the what-if game here is just silly.  There's no what if to be had.  Whether it was a conscious decision by Anders or Anders under the thrall of Justice depends on whether you rivaled him or not. 

1. Anders collects the ingredients, with or without Hawke's assistance.
2. Anders goes into the Chantry and sets his bomb.  Again with or without Hawke's assistance.
3. During the events of The Last Straw, Anders confronts Orsino and states "The Grand Cleric cannot help you," along with his other statement about half-measures.  An instant later, the Chantry explodes.  Everyone present blames Anders, and while he never once comes out and states "I set the bomb, I blew up the Grand Cleric," the lack of such an outright confession hardly stands as evidence that he didn't do it.  Not only does he never explicitly or implicitly deny guilt, he reacts to everyone's assumption of his guilt as if he is indeed guilty.  

You could argue that he's trying to protect someone else he was working with in the mage underground, but there's no evidence whatsoever to back that up.  But to suggest that Meredith could have been the culprit is as ludicrous as it gets in the face of the rest of the evidence.  Anders collected the ingredients and went into the Chantry to set his bomb, and did everything short of declare himself as the responsible party...and in the face of that you're going to posit the what if possibility that Meredith could have set the bomb?  Riiiiight.

Modifié par Silfren, 28 mai 2011 - 04:01 .

[Phoenix_Loftian]

It was most assuredly Anders..., not only is it part of his personal quest but Elthina is used as a pun in that very side quest. "Your soul is troubled child. I hope you found a BALM for it here."

Balm was a double-meaning.

[Anti-villain]

Anders actions are hard to defend and I really wanted (Hawke) to throttle him. Although I still sided with the mages and kept him alive, his actions were inexcusable and only made the situation worse for all mages.

[The Baconer]

Agamo45 wrote...
We've seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves. You get a magocracy like Tevinter, in which the magisters use their power to crush everyone else under their heels. The magisers need for more bodies and more power fuels the slave trade. I'd say that fits the "evil empire" far better than the Chantry. What the Chantry does is in the best interests of the vast majority of the population.

"We've seen what happens when the nobility are allowed to rule. You get an autocratic monarchy like Orlais, in which the nobility use their power to crush everyone else under their heels."

It's okay when mundanes do it.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Of course, if you don't care about his cause, or about Anders, I can see how it would be maddening.

I'm glad some people liked the story and even passionately so.  I just don't find it compelling.  Anders' delusions of being the fulcrum on which thousands of years of conflict over mages turns gets an ironclad plot confirmation and that cheapens it, both as plot development and character development.  I was intrigued at the idea of his and Justice's merging at first, but maybe it's just the execution I found so clumsy that I couldn't enjoy it.  As you say, it doesn't help that I really dislike DA2 Anders.  As I said upthread, I also would have liked the mage-templar conflict plot a lot more if it had been something more subtle and political.  Kirkwall is cartoon-land and so I find it hard to take it seriously that a Thedas-wide war started there.

If Justice/Anders is not the fulcrum upon which history turns, then this story is just straight out depressing, rather than properly tragic.

If you liked DA:A Anders and don't like DA2 Anders, then the tragedy should be even more profound... because Anders essentially sacrificed his Awakenings personality in pursuit of the dream of Mage freedom.

What Anders says in DA2 is true: If DA:A Anders met and fell for Hawke, they could have had a nice, drama-free relationship. Hawke could protect Anders from the Templars, and they could babies ever after in Silent Hill for the rest of their lives. Hawke could have given a romanced DA:A Anders everything he ever wanted… freedom to walk around town and eat pies and have a lot of sex with Hawke and maybe sometimes Isabella or Zevran too why not? I mean if that’s what you’re into.

But then there pretty much would never be a Mage rebellion. DA:A Anders wouldn’t sacrifice Hawke’s trust and his own personal safety for mages he wasn’t even certain he could save.

Now, this does beg a huge number of questions: could DA:A Anders have made it to Kirkwall without Vengeance providing anti-templar support and motivation? Would he have come? Would he feel the same way about Hawke no matter what? Is Vengeance what is really keeping the Templars away? Have they lost his phylactery somehow? These are all things that bother me a bit. Bear in mind that the Templars have expressed a clear intent to murder him if they ever find him again. I certainly do consider the “under the champion’s protection” bit a little too convenient (Really? Pretty much the MOST WANTED APOSTATE EVER, and nobody’s come after him? Nobody’s even sent word to the other chantries “by the way, we hate this guy, he’s an abomination and we’re going to murder him. If you ever hear the name “Anders,” stab first, and then never ask any questions, except possibly “are we sure he’s dead” or “should we stab him some more?”)

But these questions are less important, narratively, than the big one: Is 20 years of happiness for one man an even trade for another thousand years of children snatched away from their mothers, told they are monsters, deprived of love? Is it worth it to doom thousands of future mages to a loveless, pie-less existence to ensure our DA:A Anders has a chance at real happiness? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. For DA:A Anders, the answer might well be yes.

DA2 Anders has given up the ability to prioritize anything over his cause. That’s why there’s such despair in his voice when he realizes he’s in love with Hawke… because A:Anders was capable of making that selfish decision, and could have prioritized Hawke over everything. He would have been sad about the plight of mages, might have written a manifesto or two, but mostly would have allowed himself to just breathe free in Hawke’s mansion and wander around town, thumbing his nose at Meredith. Maybe they would have eventually proven that she was crazy and killed her, making things marginally better for Kirkwall mages for a little while. Twenty to thirty years from now, he’d die of the Warden’s curse, and the mages would still live oppressed in circles, and there would never be any revolution or war.

JusticeAnders doesn’t just happen to be in Kirkwall. He’s not there for his health. He’s there, in part, because Justice can see the fulcrum here. Justice understands the gears and inner workings of justice more than we ever possibly can. That’s what allows JAnders to be so confident that the Chantry attack will do something, that it’s their best chance. If Justice didn’t allow Anders to be the fulcrum of revolution, then their joining would be nothing but folly. It’s better and more interesting that, despite the fact that both were likely better off personally when they were separate, their joining allows them to achieve something truly profound.

I’m not sure that the war will end well for the Mages, but it gives them hope, gives them a chance, which is more than they had before.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Nashiktal]

The sad thing CGG is that no one wins in the end. Whether or not mages get their freedom, demons will always be there. There will always be a kid, or a guy who will fall for the demon trap. They could be as inexperienced as said kid, or as powerful as the leader of the circle (orsino) and tragedy will happen again.

Its even sadder that this is part of the reason mages are so suppressed. Its not directly their fault, but you can't just do nothing about the problem. So whatever theory you subscribe to (The circle was made out of ignorance, desperation, fear, power lust, good intentions, protection for mages) it doesn't change the fact that as long as there are mages, demons will cause havoc frequent enough to cause retribution. (Against mages)

I attribute the circle to the man who builds a sacrificial altar to protect his village from disastrous weather. It is a measure that in the eyes of the builder, has some success in protecting his home from disaster, but in reality does little to help him.

When society as a whole advances to the point that they can effectively understand demons and their nature, perhaps something better can be done. Until then the culture of most of thedas will simply be unable to do anything about it, and they will continue to oppress mages to feel like they are doing SOMETHING about the problem.

The only other society that seems to have a good way with mages is Rivain, and it is said by Gaider that they treat it like a natural disaster. Is that the best way to handle it? That seems to be a question of culture, not logic.

And culture my friends, is not easily changed.

[Smilietime]

I agree with the OP, the Grand Claric was a coward, and something else would have triggered a confrontation eventually. She could have saved lives, or gotten out of the way, but noooooo!

I also think, that this demonstrates WHY all abominations are killed on sight by templars. It doesn't matter what kind of spirit posseses a mage, it's BAD NEWS when they do!

That event is one of the best parts of what is (by bioware standards) a mediocre story, in my opinion

Modifié par Smilietime, 28 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[LobselVith8]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If Justice/Anders is not the fulcrum upon which history turns, then this story is just straight out depressing, rather than properly tragic.

If you liked DA:A Anders and don't like DA2 Anders, then the tragedy should be even more profound... because Anders essentially sacrificed his Awakenings personality in pursuit of the dream of Mage freedom.

What Anders says in DA2 is true: If DA:A Anders met and fell for Hawke, they could have had a nice, drama-free relationship. Hawke could protect Anders from the Templars, and they could babies ever after in Silent Hill for the rest of their lives.

Anders has certainly gone through a lot of turmoil, and I think what happened to Karl played a significant role in his decision to walk the path he's been on for seven years. I thought it was cool that he could tell a LI Hawke, "Ten years, a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no templars to tear them apart."

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Bear in mind that the Templars have expressed a clear intent to murder him if they ever find him again. I certainly do consider the “under the champion’s protection” bit a little too convenient (Really? Pretty much the MOST WANTED APOSTATE EVER, and nobody’s come after him? Nobody’s even sent word to the other chantries “by the way, we hate this guy, he’s an abomination and we’re going to murder him. If you ever hear the name “Anders,” stab first, and then never ask any questions, except possibly “are we sure he’s dead” or “should we stab him some more?”)

I don't think anyone knows that Anders became an abomination or killed the former templar Rolan and the Grey Warden lackeys he had serving under him. If I had to guess, I doubt a pro-mage Hero of Ferelden would care that a templar spy in the Wardens was killed, and he likely kicked out Stroud out of Ferelden for making such a stupid decision to recruit a templar (I'd assume Rolan was brought into the order when The Warden was venturing into Amgarrak, or when he went into the Eluvian with Morrigan, and Stroud admits that he owes Anders so I'd assume he was responsible for bringing Rolan into the order and Anders losing Ser Pounce-A-Lot).

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

But these questions are less important, narratively, than the big one: Is 20 years of happiness for one man an even trade for another thousand years of children snatched away from their mothers, told they are monsters, deprived of love? Is it worth it to doom thousands of future mages to a loveless, pie-less existence to ensure our DA:A Anders has a chance at real happiness? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. For DA:A Anders, the answer might well be yes.

DA2 Anders has given up the ability to prioritize anything over his cause. That’s why there’s such despair in his voice when he realizes he’s in love with Hawke… because A:Anders was capable of making that selfish decision, and could have prioritized Hawke over everything. He would have been sad about the plight of mages, might have written a manifesto or two, but mostly would have allowed himself to just breathe free in Hawke’s mansion and wander around town, thumbing his nose at Meredith. Maybe they would have eventually proven that she was crazy and killed her, making things marginally better for Kirkwall mages for a little while. Twenty to thirty years from now, he’d die of the Warden’s curse, and the mages would still live oppressed in circles, and there would never be any revolution or war.

Anders actions certainly changed the lives of every Circle mage across the continent. If the mages succeed against the templars, Anders might be remembered as a hero in the history books.

As a side note, I wonder if Anders would still die of the taint now that he's merged with Justice. Spirit Healers can enpower their spells with the aid of spirits from the Fade, and Anders is permanently bonded to a Spirit of Justice. Would he still succumb to the darkspawn corruption, or is he different now that he's merged with a denizen of the Fade?

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

JusticeAnders doesn’t just happen to be in Kirkwall. He’s not there for his health. He’s there, in part, because Justice can see the fulcrum here. Justice understands the gears and inner workings of justice more than we ever possibly can. That’s what allows JAnders to be so confident that the Chantry attack will do something, that it’s their best chance. If Justice didn’t allow Anders to be the fulcrum of revolution, then their joining would be nothing but folly. It’s better and more interesting that, despite the fact that both were likely better off personally when they were separate, their joining allows them to achieve something truly profound.

I’m not sure that the war will end well for the Mages, but it gives them hope, gives them a chance, which is more than they had before.

That's an interesting analysis of Anders and Justice. Regardless of what people think of Anders' actions, the revolution did happen, and there's still the possibility that the mages can maintain their sovereignty from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If Justice/Anders is not the fulcrum upon which history turns, then this story is just straight out depressing, rather than properly tragic.

It is depressing.  Or it would be, if it wasn't also kind of silly.

If you liked DA:A Anders and don't like DA2 Anders, then the tragedy should be even more profound... because Anders essentially sacrificed his Awakenings personality in pursuit of the dream of Mage freedom.

No, he made a stupid choice, something any mage knows is wrong.  He's a walking advertisement for the Harrowing and Tranquility, except I disbelieve that it would really happen this way.  I don't buy it, and I don't like that the whole of the act 3 plot turns on lyrium and demons rather than something more intrinsic and political.  YMMV, as it obviously does.

What Anders says in DA2 is true: If DA:A Anders met and fell for Hawke, they could have had a nice, drama-free relationship. Hawke could protect Anders from the Templars, and they could babies ever after in Silent Hill for the rest of their lives. Hawke could have given a romanced DA:A Anders everything he ever wanted… freedom to walk around town and eat pies and have a lot of sex with Hawke and maybe sometimes Isabella or Zevran too why not? I mean if that’s what you’re into.

Well, right... except for the whole Warden thing.  I was rather indifferent to Anders in Awakening.  He was alright, as a pal.  I really don't like what they did to him, but not because I wanted my PC to go off and have babies with him.

But these questions are less important, narratively, than the big one: Is 20 years of happiness for one man an even trade for another thousand years of children snatched away from their mothers, told they are monsters, deprived of love? Is it worth it to doom thousands of future mages to a loveless, pie-less existence to ensure our DA:A Anders has a chance at real happiness? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. For DA:A Anders, the answer might well be yes.

It's all a bit melodramatic for my tastes.  In fact, that pretty much sums up DA2 Anders.

JusticeAnders doesn’t just happen to be in Kirkwall. He’s not there for his health. He’s there, in part, because Justice can see the fulcrum here. Justice understands the gears and inner workings of justice more than we ever possibly can. That’s what allows JAnders to be so confident that the Chantry attack will do something, that it’s their best chance. If Justice didn’t allow Anders to be the fulcrum of revolution, then their joining would be nothing but folly. It’s better and more interesting that, despite the fact that both were likely better off personally when they were separate, their joining allows them to achieve something truly profound.

I’m not sure that the war will end well for the Mages, but it gives them hope, gives them a chance, which is more than they had before.

It is folly.  Hope?  For what?  And what gives him the right to decide that?  Anders is insane and Justice is a demon.  This is not a thinking decision.  Also, melodramatic, as I mentioned.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mai 2011 - 04:37 .

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

No, he made a stupid choice, something any mage knows is wrong.  He's a walking advertisement for the Harrowing and Tranquility, except I disbelieve that it would really happen this way.  I don't buy it, and I don't like that the whole of the act 3 plot turns on lyrium and demons rather than something more intrinsic and political.  YMMV, as it obviously does.

Right, because there's lots of known cases of mages merging with spirits and then the spirit getting twisted. Oh no wait, it's the exact opposite: there is not bit of precedent for Anders to have known. Just people like you that didn't pay attention to the story and just assumed it to be so.

[jamirflyd2]

When I first started the game I was all for the mages and anders till I found that almost all the mages were evil and blood mages and to boot anders blew up a church like wtf??? he could have blown up the gallows and have got all the mages out by that sercet tunnel from Act 2 with Alrik. Anders was wrong in the game. His ideas were great but as real history shows radical change is not the way to go. Civil Rights sure as heck did not arrive in an instant so why would people who can't use magic suddenly from the blue after one of thier churches is blown up thank mages for that???? If anything the mages in Kirkwall that use blood magic and rebel prove the point that magic is dangerous. We don't let the mentally ill and crazy killers walk around as they please so why should it be different in DA. I agree so much with Jennifer Helper that making Anders live is the best ending and truly making him face his demon that he made lol! Anders siding with Templars is sweet!

Modifié par jamirflyd2, 29 mai 2011 - 06:28 .

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

No, he made a stupid choice, something any mage knows is wrong.  He's a walking advertisement for the Harrowing and Tranquility, except I disbelieve that it would really happen this way.  I don't buy it, and I don't like that the whole of the act 3 plot turns on lyrium and demons rather than something more intrinsic and political.  YMMV, as it obviously does.

Right, because there's lots of known cases of mages merging with spirits and then the spirit getting twisted. Oh no wait, it's the exact opposite: there is not bit of precedent for Anders to have known. Just people like you that didn't pay attention to the story and just assumed it to be so.

"Don't get possessed" is Magery 101.

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

No, he made a stupid choice, something any mage knows is wrong.  He's a walking advertisement for the Harrowing and Tranquility, except I disbelieve that it would really happen this way.  I don't buy it, and I don't like that the whole of the act 3 plot turns on lyrium and demons rather than something more intrinsic and political.  YMMV, as it obviously does.

Right, because there's lots of known cases of mages merging with spirits and then the spirit getting twisted. Oh no wait, it's the exact opposite: there is not bit of precedent for Anders to have known. Just people like you that didn't pay attention to the story and just assumed it to be so.

"Don't get possessed" is Magery 101.

"Don't get possessed by a demon". Justice is a spirit.

You can argue that there's no difference. Merrill and the Dalish certianly don't think there is. But according to the Chantry-run circles, spirits and demons are separate entities with a clear dichotomy of good v. bad, and that is what Anders and Wynne were both educated to believe. 

There is no known record of spirit possession happening ever, benevolent "spirits" usually stay clear of humans completely. We have two cases so far, and neither of these cases work the same way as the demonic possessions we've experienced. Anders and Wynne both retain their own minds and the relationship with the spirits possessing them is one of symbiosis, not predatory like one would experience with a demon.

[Nashiktal]

I would like to point out that Anders doesn't completely keep his mind. He keeps his memories, but fusing with justice created an entirely new personality. I'm not sure of a good analogy to properly explain it.

Still Addai has a point. Mages are taught to never allow a demon to possess them. Although spirit possession are not documented, the fact that LESS is known about such possession than with demon possession should have unleashed some warning bells for Anders. It is simply not a natural act.

[SkittlesKat96]

 I despised Anders and hated what he did and how he ruined any chance of compromise and peace between the mages and templars, but deep down I think secretly I am happy about what he did because the situation would have happened anyway but been worse, he might have been stopping a slow death of the mages or slow death of both sides.

The mages were crazy and Meredith needed to go fast, things could have been much worse. I still don't condone what he did though.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Silfren wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

It was not.

The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power.  The templars are under the rule of the Chantry regardless of the fact that they stole political power in Kirkwall years before.  Technically, Meredith has not been voted by the citizens of Kirkwall to be their Viscount and the game never explained the actual system on how a Viscount was decided like they did with the ruling monarch of Ferelden.  The title of Viscount came about from prior occupation.  The Divine is over the Andrastian ruled nations, their chantries. The Grand Clerics of each nation are next in rank, the Revered Mother, Laysisters, then a novice.  Templars because of their number and their outing of the previous Viscount is the only reason Meredith felt she had the power.  Even though by law of the citizens of Kirkwall she didn't. Viscount Dumar didn't want to oppose the Chantry political power and followed along with Meredith to a certain extent.  Meredith is the one who put Dumar in his office to begin with. 

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.  She was totally out of control by then.  The Grand Cleric is the only one within Kirkwall that had that authority.  She also had the authority to put a stop to  the abuse of the Templars who weren't following chantry laws and their abuse of the mages.  The Grand Cleric also mentions and realizes that Meredith is picking on Orsino and the mages she states so in her comments before she asks a templar to escort Orsino back to the Gallows.  So she knew it was going on and once again she doesn't put a stop to it.  She should have reigned in Meredith way before the events of Act 3.  I also agree with a poster above that Meredith because of her personal family history shouldn't have ever held the position of Knight Commander of Kirkwall.  Once again her goes right back to the Grand Cleric in making this decison years before.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?  It's done off screen so how do we know? Just because he wanted to sneak into the Chantry doesn't mean he actually planted that bomb, he only admits to accepting justice inside him.  Though he probably did plant the bomb. My last playthough I had the thought what if Meredith is the one that set that bomb with the magic from the idol somehow and not Anders?  I'm sure she didn't like being told to go to her room like a good little girl in front of the citizens of Kirkwall by the Grand Cleric.  Even Varric states at the ending with Cassandra it could have been the idol all along, he as good as tells Cassandra to take her pick on who she wants as villan.  I can also Trevinter in the background causing havoc in the whole mess.

If Anders did set the bomb, was he justified and did I agree?  Well it really depends on how I roleplay the game.  Some of my Hawkes who will be mages will agree and especially with Bethany being a mage within the circle.  If Carver is alive he will side with the templars.  But to blow up innocent people, no I didn't agree with the method choosen and I didn't like the fact Hawke didn't have a choice in stopping what happened.   I should have had the opportunity as a player in helping the save the chantry and the people within or allow it to be blown up.  I never had a choice as a player and this ticked me off.

Anders makes it clear himself that he set the bomb.  That, at least, is not in question.

I don't see it that way but as I said he probably did.  All I'm saying is that we never see who actually plants the bomb, it could have been Meredith since it is done off screen, I"m just giving a what if possibility.  A player could also say that it was Justice period and not Anders.  Anders does say he took Justice into himself and changed his soul forever.  I see Justice in control of Anders the more I play the game, right from the start of the game.  That is Justice when we first go to Anders Clinic, since he glows blue.  With Acts II and III we see Justice more and more and less of Anders. 

If you go with the 'what if' possibility and allow yourself to see it was Meredith this does play into her hand of invoking the Right of Annulment.  This also plays into Orsino's hand with the Grand Cleric not protecting mages.  Anders/Justice even calls out Orsino on this at the beginning of the Last Straw.   Anders could also be just admitting his involvement with the underground railroad in helping mages escape.  Once again he never fully says right out he set the bomb, he is very cryptic in his answer.  My first playthrough I killed him and was his love interest, the more I play the game I'm starting to realize this might not be the case.  If nothing else it would be a great start to writing a fanfiction for DA2 with this possible outcome instead. 

Not to be combative , but you're making a ridiculous stretch.  Yes, we DO know that Anders set the bomb.  He makes it abundantly clear himself.  Playing the what-if game here is just silly.  There's no what if to be had.  Whether it was a conscious decision by Anders or Anders under the thrall of Justice depends on whether you rivaled him or not. 

1. Anders collects the ingredients, with or without Hawke's assistance.
2. Anders goes into the Chantry and sets his bomb.  Again with or without Hawke's assistance.
3. During the events of The Last Straw, Anders confronts Orsino and states "The Grand Cleric cannot help you," along with his other statement about half-measures.  An instant later, the Chantry explodes.  Everyone present blames Anders, and while he never once comes out and states "I set the bomb, I blew up the Grand Cleric," the lack of such an outright confession hardly stands as evidence that he didn't do it.  Not only does he never explicitly or implicitly deny guilt, he reacts to everyone's assumption of his guilt as if he is indeed guilty.  

You could argue that he's trying to protect someone else he was working with in the mage underground, but there's no evidence whatsoever to back that up.  But to suggest that Meredith could have been the culprit is as ludicrous as it gets in the face of the rest of the evidence.  Anders collected the ingredients and went into the Chantry to set his bomb, and did everything short of declare himself as the responsible party...and in the face of that you're going to posit the what if possibility that Meredith could have set the bomb?  Riiiiight.

Apparently, you keep missing the fact that I also said in all likelyhood that he probably did set the bomb.  I also said I see where it was Justice more so than Anders. Justice basically takes Anders completely over in Act 3.  I guess we choose to read what we choose to read!  You roleplay it your way and I'll roleplay it mine.  I'm just throwing out a what if possibilities, for discussion sake alone.  Don't take it personally.

Also, can you explain the Grand Cleric's odd comment that she hoped Anders found a bomb for balm for his soul?  This was a rather odd statement wouldn't you agree.  What an odd thing for her to tell Anders.  Anders also tells us he was helping mages escape during Act 2 so he was protecting mages as well so were templars.

[bEVEsthda]

To answer the OP question:
I felt that blowing up the Chantry, killing so many half-innocent (at least personally unresponsible) people was a bit too dramatic. And I'm kinda convinced it's also normally counter-productive. I refused to do the sewer quest with Anders. Doesn't matter. He still finds the ingredients on his own. So no, I wasn't exactly exstatic about it.

OTOH, I had by that time been talking as harshly as I could, at every opportunity, to try bring Meredith down. But the dam game just wouldn't let me. I'm, in the end, just a passive role-witness, never seeing any desired talk or argument coming from that dam dialogue wheel, nor having any feel that it matters any way whatever anyway.
So, truth is, when the chantry went down, I thought "H* yes! now things finally start to happen!".
I didn't punish Anders. Instead, defending Anders was my ticket to finally bring Meredith to a confrontation. (of course, I understand that confrontation would have come either way. By that time I was wise to how DA2 worked).
And Anders fought by my side in the final battles. He's still my friend and I stand with him.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...

"Don't get possessed by a demon". Justice is a spirit.

You can argue that there's no difference. Merrill and the Dalish certianly don't think there is. But according to the Chantry-run circles, spirits and demons are separate entities with a clear dichotomy of good v. bad, and that is what Anders and Wynne were both educated to believe. 

There is no known record of spirit possession happening ever, benevolent "spirits" usually stay clear of humans completely. We have two cases so far, and neither of these cases work the same way as the demonic possessions we've experienced. Anders and Wynne both retain their own minds and the relationship with the spirits possessing them is one of symbiosis, not predatory like one would experience with a demon.

Anders didn't keep his mind.

And already in Awakening, there's discussion that Justice is not all that different from demons- he is starting to experience desires, envy etc.

[Mirthadrond]

Having just finished the game a few hours ago, I logged into the site forums and saw this thread.

YES, I was absolutely shocked and appalled at Anders actions. Totally inexcusable. To make matters worse, I was in a love relationship with him, and not only did he lie to me, but he goes off and committs mass murder.

Further more, he attacks the CHANTRY, not the Templars who have been the thorn in his side the entire game. He never once, does he say: "The Chantry is causing all the problems".

So YES, his action is inexusable and horrifyinng, to say the least. You would think that 3 years in a loving, caring, passionate relationship would have given Anders a different viewpoint, and perhaps even grounded him a little bit, giving him something else to live for besides a burning desire for vengence against the TEMPLARS, and obviously power hungry / mad Merrideth.

But he chooses to attack the Chantry?????

So... yes I was shocked. I stared at my computer screen for 10 minutes, trying to decide with the general shock of the situation.

Not what I was expecting.
Granted Anders did sound rather ominious, but I figured his little experiement to remove Justice would / could kill him in the process.
I did not anticipate him committing mass murder and starting a war between the Chantry and the Circle.

Stupid arrogant selfish self-centered SOB!!!!

My character was a mage, so naturally I sided with the mages. I was also heart broken by Anders betrayal and lies, so I released him from his self imposed prison, and left him laying on the Gallows steps..... and if I EVER encounter 'Justice', I'll kill that SOB as well.

And of COURSE... Merrideths fears prove to be true, despite her being completely insane. Wow... most of the Circle mages ARE Blood Mages..... including the leader.

God damn it... no wonder my character left Kirkwall.... Leiliana can kiss my ass in DA 3. My "Champion" and my "Hero of Ferelden" are gonna get together and leave Thedas to it's fate.

[LobselVith8]

jamirflyd2 wrote...

When I first started the game I was all for the mages and anders till I found that almost all the mages were evil and blood mages and to boot anders blew up a church like wtf???

Isn't that like saying most dwarves are evil members of the carta because of the waves of carta members Hawke fights? We encounter a Harrowed mage named Karl who was illegally made into a tranquil mage on orders from Ser Alrik, and Anders killed him because Karl begged to die rather than live out his life as a "templar puppet." We encounter Alrik threatening a child mage named Ella with illegal tranquility and implied rape. We can hear Alain talk about a templar coming into his room late at night and threatening to make him tranquil if he tells anyone. It doesn't seem to be a healthly enviornment for mages to live in, and considering that templars can nullify ordinary magic, I can see why some would turn to blood magic to survive.

jamirflyd2 wrote...

he could have blown up the gallows and have got all the mages out by that sercet tunnel from Act 2 with Alrik. Anders was wrong in the game.

He could have blown up the Gallows, which would have killed all the men, women, and children living in the fortress. I can understand that you disagree with what Anders did, but blowing up the Gallows wouldn't have been a better alternative.

jamirflyd2 wrote...

His ideas were great but as real history shows radical change is not the way to go.

Fictional history: tell that to Andraste. Real history: tell that to the slaves of Saint Dominique who fought a war for their freedom.

jamirflyd2 wrote...

anything the mages in Kirkwall that use blood magic and rebel prove the point that magic is dangerous.

And the templars who torture, rape, and make Harrowed mages tranquil illegally prove the mages right.

I agree so much with Jennifer Helper that making Anders live is the best ending and truly making him face his demon that he made lol! Anders siding with Templars is sweet!

So you're upset that Anders killed people when he blew up the Chantry, and your solution is to have Anders commit genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children who are innocent of the act that Anders committed?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 mai 2011 - 09:36 .

[Mirthadrond]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Of course, if you don't care about his cause, or about Anders, I can see how it would be maddening.

I'm glad some people liked the story and even passionately so.  I just don't find it compelling.  Anders' delusions of being the fulcrum on which thousands of years of conflict over mages turns gets an ironclad plot confirmation and that cheapens it, both as plot development and character development.  I was intrigued at the idea of his and Justice's merging at first, but maybe it's just the execution I found so clumsy that I couldn't enjoy it.  As you say, it doesn't help that I really dislike DA2 Anders.  As I said upthread, I also would have liked the mage-templar conflict plot a lot more if it had been something more subtle and political.  Kirkwall is cartoon-land and so I find it hard to take it seriously that a Thedas-wide war started there.

If Justice/Anders is not the fulcrum upon which history turns, then this story is just straight out depressing, rather than properly tragic.

If you liked DA:A Anders and don't like DA2 Anders, then the tragedy should be even more profound... because Anders essentially sacrificed his Awakenings personality in pursuit of the dream of Mage freedom.

What Anders says in DA2 is true: If DA:A Anders met and fell for Hawke, they could have had a nice, drama-free relationship. Hawke could protect Anders from the Templars, and they could babies ever after in Silent Hill for the rest of their lives. Hawke could have given a romanced DA:A Anders everything he ever wanted… freedom to walk around town and eat pies and have a lot of sex with Hawke and maybe sometimes Isabella or Zevran too why not? I mean if that’s what you’re into.

But then there pretty much would never be a Mage rebellion. DA:A Anders wouldn’t sacrifice Hawke’s trust and his own personal safety for mages he wasn’t even certain he could save.

Now, this does beg a huge number of questions: could DA:A Anders have made it to Kirkwall without Vengeance providing anti-templar support and motivation? Would he have come? Would he feel the same way about Hawke no matter what? Is Vengeance what is really keeping the Templars away? Have they lost his phylactery somehow? These are all things that bother me a bit. Bear in mind that the Templars have expressed a clear intent to murder him if they ever find him again. I certainly do consider the “under the champion’s protection” bit a little too convenient (Really? Pretty much the MOST WANTED APOSTATE EVER, and nobody’s come after him? Nobody’s even sent word to the other chantries “by the way, we hate this guy, he’s an abomination and we’re going to murder him. If you ever hear the name “Anders,” stab first, and then never ask any questions, except possibly “are we sure he’s dead” or “should we stab him some more?”)

But these questions are less important, narratively, than the big one: Is 20 years of happiness for one man an even trade for another thousand years of children snatched away from their mothers, told they are monsters, deprived of love? Is it worth it to doom thousands of future mages to a loveless, pie-less existence to ensure our DA:A Anders has a chance at real happiness? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. For DA:A Anders, the answer might well be yes.

DA2 Anders has given up the ability to prioritize anything over his cause. That’s why there’s such despair in his voice when he realizes he’s in love with Hawke… because A:Anders was capable of making that selfish decision, and could have prioritized Hawke over everything. He would have been sad about the plight of mages, might have written a manifesto or two, but mostly would have allowed himself to just breathe free in Hawke’s mansion and wander around town, thumbing his nose at Meredith. Maybe they would have eventually proven that she was crazy and killed her, making things marginally better for Kirkwall mages for a little while. Twenty to thirty years from now, he’d die of the Warden’s curse, and the mages would still live oppressed in circles, and there would never be any revolution or war.

JusticeAnders doesn’t just happen to be in Kirkwall. He’s not there for his health. He’s there, in part, because Justice can see the fulcrum here. Justice understands the gears and inner workings of justice more than we ever possibly can. That’s what allows JAnders to be so confident that the Chantry attack will do something, that it’s their best chance. If Justice didn’t allow Anders to be the fulcrum of revolution, then their joining would be nothing but folly. It’s better and more interesting that, despite the fact that both were likely better off personally when they were separate, their joining allows them to achieve something truly profound.

I’m not sure that the war will end well for the Mages, but it gives them hope, gives them a chance, which is more than they had before.

Love this post.

Gives me a different view point to mull over while I nurse my wounds.  Of course, understanding the Anders / Justice relationship better doesn't nullify my feelings of betrayal.

I could understand him lying to me about a gift, or a party, but something as big as blowing up the Chantry??
No...

He should have trusted me.  I deserved that much from him, at least.  He's not allowed to cash in on all the 'perks' of the relationship, but none of the 'work'.

[GavrielKay]

Mirthadrond wrote...

He should have trusted me.  I deserved that much from him, at least.  He's not allowed to cash in on all the 'perks' of the relationship, but none of the 'work'.

It would have been nice if there were circumstances under which Anders would tell Hawke about his plans.  Say, if Hawke had consistently sided with the mages, or made other anti-Chantry statements during Act 3 or something.  It would have been a good step in terms of having the way Hawke was played actually affect the story.

[LobselVith8]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Having just finished the game a few hours ago, I logged into the site forums and saw this thread.

YES, I was absolutely shocked and appalled at Anders actions. Totally inexcusable. To make matters worse, I was in a love relationship with him, and not only did he lie to me, but he goes off and committs mass murder.

Further more, he attacks the CHANTRY, not the Templars who have been the thorn in his side the entire game. He never once, does he say: "The Chantry is causing all the problems".

The templars are the military arm of the Chantry, and it's the Chantry who controls the fourteen Circles of Magi.

Mirthadrond wrote...

So YES, his action is inexusable and horrifyinng, to say the least. You would think that 3 years in a loving, caring, passionate relationship would have given Anders a different viewpoint, and perhaps even grounded him a little bit, giving him something else to live for besides a burning desire for vengence against the TEMPLARS, and obviously power hungry / mad Merrideth.

But he chooses to attack the Chantry?????

The Chantry controlled Circles have subjugated mages for nearly a thousand years, and Anders made it clear he wanted the Circles of Magi to rise up and emancipate themselves - which happens across the continent when the Circle mages see that the templars can be defied. I understand that you disagree with what Anders did, but it was the Chantry who placed their military to govern the mages on a daily basis.

Mirthadrond wrote...

So... yes I was shocked. I stared at my computer screen for 10 minutes, trying to decide with the general shock of the situation.

Not what I was expecting.
Granted Anders did sound rather ominious, but I figured his little experiement to remove Justice would / could kill him in the process.
I did not anticipate him committing mass murder and starting a war between the Chantry and the Circle.

Anders blew up a building, but it's Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall that was innocent of Anders' actions that caused a war. Cassandra doesn't even note Anders' name when she discusses the free mages who emancipated themselves from the Chantry and its templars, as she points out that the mages view (a pro-mage) Hawke as a hero, not Anders.

Mirthadrond wrote...

Stupid arrogant selfish self-centered SOB!!!!

My character was a mage, so naturally I sided with the mages. I was also heart broken by Anders betrayal and lies, so I released him from his self imposed prison, and left him laying on the Gallows steps..... and if I EVER encounter 'Justice', I'll kill that SOB as well.

And of COURSE... Merrideths fears prove to be true, despite her being completely insane. Wow... most of the Circle mages ARE Blood Mages..... including the leader.

Meredith asks Hawke to kill the men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle to appease the mob. She makes it clear that "the people will demand blood," which is why she invokes the Right of Annulment. And the actions of a single man doesn't mean every enchanter, mage, and apprentice is a blood mage. Considering there are at least hundreds of mages living in the Gallows (at the time of Genitivi's codex, which doesn't include the influx of all the Starkhaven Circle mages who were relocated to Kirkwall), Hawke mostly encounters mages outside the Gallows, many of whom have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall.

Mirthadrond wrote...

God damn it... no wonder my character left Kirkwall.... Leiliana can kiss my ass in DA 3. My "Champion" and my "Hero of Ferelden" are gonna get together and leave Thedas to it's fate.

Kirkwall is a mess. Leaving Kirkwall is the smartest thing that Hawke does.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The Chantry is a major part of the problem, and Anders does say so... well, he says so subtly, and only if you're paying attention. It's the Chantry that teaches that mages are evil, that they are a curse. His short story mentions this, how his father believes that Anders being a mage is punishment from the Maker. He repeats this in his manifesto, and in several of his chatters/banters where he says that the Chantry has perverted Andraste's teachings.

I honestly believe that if Andrasteism hadn't ever started teaching that mages were inherently evil, "proof of the Maker's hate," this revolution would have never happened. Things would not have gotten so bad, if the circles were not watched over by people trained to believe their charges were less than human.

Of course, this is colored by my DA:O experience. My least favorite character in DA:O was Leliana, and my favorite was Alistair, and that colored my views on the Chantry. Also, there is significant evidence that the Chantry has been corrupted away from the original teachings of Andraste: see the expurgation of the Canticle of Shartan after the Exalted March on the Dales, for instance.

My Dalish Warden thinks the Chantry can burn under magefire for all she cares. Perhaps if the elves and the Mages join together, they can form a government where everyone works together, like in the clan, and the mages are more like Keepers.  My Templar!Hawke feels that a reformed Andrasteism is the best way forward, one that restores Shartan's Canticle, and re-interprets the passages on magic being evil so that they pertain only to blood magic and deals with demons. One where the mages are still monitored, but not hated.

I'm not convinced that complete mage freedom is the answer, but unless Andrasteism stops teaching everyone that mages are inherently bad people, this will keep happening and nothing will get better. So even my Hawkes who think the Circle and Templars are inherently necessary do not side with them in this particular circumstance. There is no reason for the Chantry to change unless it gets a swift kick somewhere soft... this rebellion is one such kick.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mai 2011 - 09:22 .