1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

My worry about such a rebellion, is what kind of evil it can unleash. If we thought the situation in kirkwall was bad.... Just what happens when demons start appearing not in a small contained city... but in the wide world of thedas?

What happens to those demons when the templars are busy fighting mages and vice-versa? The suffering is not going to be limited to the chantry/mages/templar, and said suffering is not going to be as *tame* as being caught in simple crossfire... I fear the veil may grow thin all over the continent.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Worst case scenario, the Maker remakes the world. Or he gets kicked out and we get a fresh setta gods. Happened once before, might happen again.

[Aradace]

To put it into perspective, I nearly had a nerd-gasm the moment the Chantry exploded lol. Seriously, if I had the chance to blow the chantry up myself, I would have. I initially hated Anders in DA2, but the moment the chantry went boom, he went instantly to my "hero" list

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My Dalish Warden thinks the Chantry can burn under magefire for all she cares. Perhaps if the elves and the Mages join together, they can form a government where everyone works together, like in the clan, and the mages are more like Keepers.  My Templar!Hawke feels that a reformed Andrasteism is the best way forward, one that restores Shartan's Canticle, and re-interprets the passages on magic being evil so that they pertain only to blood magic and deals with demons. One where the mages are still monitored, but not hated.

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My Dalish Warden thinks the Chantry can burn under magefire for all she cares. Perhaps if the elves and the Mages join together, they can form a government where everyone works together, like in the clan, and the mages are more like Keepers.  My Templar!Hawke feels that a reformed Andrasteism is the best way forward, one that restores Shartan's Canticle, and re-interprets the passages on magic being evil so that they pertain only to blood magic and deals with demons. One where the mages are still monitored, but not hated.

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

That doesn't mean the same thing will happen again in Kirkwall.

[BlueMew]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My Dalish Warden thinks the Chantry can burn under magefire for all she cares. Perhaps if the elves and the Mages join together, they can form a government where everyone works together, like in the clan, and the mages are more like Keepers.  My Templar!Hawke feels that a reformed Andrasteism is the best way forward, one that restores Shartan's Canticle, and re-interprets the passages on magic being evil so that they pertain only to blood magic and deals with demons. One where the mages are still monitored, but not hated.

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

That doesn't mean the same thing will happen again in Kirkwall.

Second that. I usually don't get into these discussions anymore, feeling that I pretty much said everything already, but in this case: from a historical point of view... the proto-Chantry rebelled against the Imperium, and what defined the Imperium was their magic. So a fear / hatred of magic has become a 'thing' with the Chantry, even if the Circle Magi are not magisters.

The more I think about it, the less I am convinced there could have been a compromise. There simply is no arguing with religious doctrine. And however great the GODDAMNIT ANDERS! factor... this is likely how worlds are changed. By standing ankle-deep in blood. Not pretty, but there you go.

[Addai]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My Dalish Warden thinks the Chantry can burn under magefire for all she cares. Perhaps if the elves and the Mages join together, they can form a government where everyone works together, like in the clan, and the mages are more like Keepers.  My Templar!Hawke feels that a reformed Andrasteism is the best way forward, one that restores Shartan's Canticle, and re-interprets the passages on magic being evil so that they pertain only to blood magic and deals with demons. One where the mages are still monitored, but not hated.

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

That doesn't mean the same thing will happen again in Kirkwall.

Undertaking your transition to a more reasonable system is off to a great start with the pink wiz bomb lighting up the sky.  That really says "your new mage overlords are powers of good."

[The Baconer]

Addai67 wrote...
Undertaking your transition to a more reasonable system is off to a great start with the pink wiz bomb lighting up the sky.  That really says "your new mage overlords are powers of good."

Doesn't matter. It's still better than the Chantry overlords.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Yeah, honestly. The Chantry's too powerful. It needs to get taken down a peg or two. It's usually more the problem than the solution and the religion is completely useless in solving problems. The Chantry blames mages for too much just for having more power. Even if you agree with the circle, the regulations of not being allowed to have a family of their own and being denied from even visiting their families is very harsh and then there's the 'kept in prison cells' part in certain Cicles across Thedas (including Kirkwall's).

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

Anders didn't keep his mind.

And already in Awakening, there's discussion that Justice is not all that different from demons- he is starting to experience desires, envy etc.

I would say hindsight is 20/20, but you're making me doubt it. Yes, he did keep his mind. He was changed, he was not destroyed and replaced with a demon in his body.

Furthermore, that dialogue about Justice experiencing desires is with the Warden, not Anders. You're blaming Anders for not knowing about a conversation Justice had with the Warden? Nice. Especially since we can see for a fact that the desire in question was not a prelude to his downfall. His desire was for the type of loving relationship that he's seeing in Kristoff's memories of his wife Aura. Yet Justice gets the chance to experience all of that first hand when Anders hooks up with Hawke. But he is outright against Anders pursuing Hawke, saying he considers her "a distraction." Whatever changed Justice, it was not that idle and harmless longing for a partner.

In fact the Chantry's fairy tales are the only known basis for the claim that a spirit even can become a demon. Justice himself doesn't even know what demons really are or how they come to be. He worries he could change, but that could as easily be viewed as vigilant. If he wasn't worried he could change, there would be some cause for concern. "I'm above that sort of thing" just reeks of having already fallen to pride. Even if one were to take the Chantry's stories as fact it doesn't mean one should react to spirits as you seem to think. I know real religious analogies are frowned upon, but as this isn't about good or bad just about how people view such teachings... consider that spirits and demons are not so subtly modeled after angels and, well, demons. How are angels viewed by those who believe in them? If an angel appeared in front of a believer and asked something of them, would they a) freak the hell out and run away screaming "an angel! run, it might fall any second!" or stand in slack-jawed awe and gladly do whatever it asked because it's known as a paragon of all that is good and right and shouldn't be judged for the millenia old crimes of a few of its kin? I'm gonna go with b. I wager mages view spirits in a similar light.

Nashiktal wrote...

My worry about such a rebellion, is what kind of evil it can unleash. If we thought the situation in kirkwall was bad.... Just what happens when demons start appearing not in a small contained city... but in the wide world of thedas?

What happens to those demons when the templars are busy fighting mages and vice-versa? The suffering is not going to be limited to the chantry/mages/templar, and said suffering is not going to be as *tame* as being caught in simple crossfire... I fear the veil may grow thin all over the continent.

I doubt it will lead to as much evil as the oppression that caused the rebellion was. Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the veil growing thin over the rest of Thedas from the war. The Tevinters went to extreme lengths to damage the veil as it has been in Kirkwall. Hundreds of years of brutal oppression and ritual sacrifice. There are a kind of sewers under the city that the Tevinters had literally running rivers of blood. Moreover, they were making a conscious effort to damage the veil. In fact the city itself was designed with the buildings and roads and such in the pattern of glyphs. The actual city is literally an enormous magical symbol. We know they were actively trying to weaken the veil and that all magical energies of the rivers of blood and city-glyphs were being used to do it, but we still don't know what they were planning to do with the weakened veil. Annnnyway, my point is, it takes a lot more than a big rebellion to screw up the veil like Kirkwall. Otherwise Denerim would have pride demons casually strolling through the markets hehe.

Addai67 wrote...

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

I got food poisoning by eating bad chicken once. The logical conclusion is that no one should ever eat chicken again, right?

[Rifneno]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

I've never understood this argument. What happened in Tevinter was inevitable, not only because of Tevinter's culture and history, but simply because this is what will always happen in a society where one portion of a population are considered non-people that another portion of the same population can do whatever they well please with without reprecussions. Slavery and abuses against slaves would still exist with every mage locked up if it was allowed - but with magic, those abuses can end up being extreme, like in the case of Fenris and the slaves sacrificed to blood magic. Just like magic can do an extreme amount of good, like healing hundreds of people who would otherwise die, like Anders does.

Judging mages on the basis of Tevinter magisters is like judging elves on the basis of the Dalish, or humans on the basis of Orlesian nobles when these are only a few out of a great many, very varied, groups of humans and elves. Culture does a lot more to shape you as a person than an in-born trait.

I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

Very well said.  <applauds>

[Addai]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Yeah, honestly. The Chantry's too powerful. It needs to get taken down a peg or two. It's usually more the problem than the solution and the religion is completely useless in solving problems. The Chantry blames mages for too much just for having more power. Even if you agree with the circle, the regulations of not being allowed to have a family of their own and being denied from even visiting their families is very harsh and then there's the 'kept in prison cells' part in certain Cicles across Thedas (including Kirkwall's).

How is the Chantry too powerful?  In most places it has no say in the civil government at all.  In Ferelden the Chantry got purged after the rebellion, and only survived there as an institution at all because of popular faith.  That's what people keep missing- it's there because the people want it to be.  You can't forcibly root out people's faith.  If you try, you end up worse than that which you're fighting against.

As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that?  The beginning is not exactly auspicious.  What are Anders and his revolutionary pals going to do if the people don't want their mage overlords?  Blow up all their institutions and town squares until they finally give in?  And how are they then going to enforce the new world order?

Modifié par Addai67, 31 mai 2011 - 01:32 .

[Addai]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Judging mages on the basis of Tevinter magisters is like judging elves on the basis of the Dalish, or humans on the basis of Orlesian nobles when these are only a few out of a great many, very varied, groups of humans and elves. Culture does a lot more to shape you as a person than an in-born trait.

I'm not judging anyone.  I'm suggesting that Anders and Co. are on their way to round 2.  That's IF the Qunari don't sweep in and scoop up the leftovers.

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that?  The beginning is not exactly auspicious.  What are Anders and his revolutionary pals going to do if the people don't want their mage overlords?  Blow up all their institutions and town squares until they finally give in?  And how are they then going to enforce the new world order?

You still don't get that it's wrong to punish people for something you think they might do.  Wow.

[Silfren]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

It was not.

The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power.  The templars are under the rule of the Chantry regardless of the fact that they stole political power in Kirkwall years before.  Technically, Meredith has not been voted by the citizens of Kirkwall to be their Viscount and the game never explained the actual system on how a Viscount was decided like they did with the ruling monarch of Ferelden.  The title of Viscount came about from prior occupation.  The Divine is over the Andrastian ruled nations, their chantries. The Grand Clerics of each nation are next in rank, the Revered Mother, Laysisters, then a novice.  Templars because of their number and their outing of the previous Viscount is the only reason Meredith felt she had the power.  Even though by law of the citizens of Kirkwall she didn't. Viscount Dumar didn't want to oppose the Chantry political power and followed along with Meredith to a certain extent.  Meredith is the one who put Dumar in his office to begin with. 

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.  She was totally out of control by then.  The Grand Cleric is the only one within Kirkwall that had that authority.  She also had the authority to put a stop to  the abuse of the Templars who weren't following chantry laws and their abuse of the mages.  The Grand Cleric also mentions and realizes that Meredith is picking on Orsino and the mages she states so in her comments before she asks a templar to escort Orsino back to the Gallows.  So she knew it was going on and once again she doesn't put a stop to it.  She should have reigned in Meredith way before the events of Act 3.  I also agree with a poster above that Meredith because of her personal family history shouldn't have ever held the position of Knight Commander of Kirkwall.  Once again her goes right back to the Grand Cleric in making this decison years before.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?  It's done off screen so how do we know? Just because he wanted to sneak into the Chantry doesn't mean he actually planted that bomb, he only admits to accepting justice inside him.  Though he probably did plant the bomb. My last playthough I had the thought what if Meredith is the one that set that bomb with the magic from the idol somehow and not Anders?  I'm sure she didn't like being told to go to her room like a good little girl in front of the citizens of Kirkwall by the Grand Cleric.  Even Varric states at the ending with Cassandra it could have been the idol all along, he as good as tells Cassandra to take her pick on who she wants as villan.  I can also Trevinter in the background causing havoc in the whole mess.

If Anders did set the bomb, was he justified and did I agree?  Well it really depends on how I roleplay the game.  Some of my Hawkes who will be mages will agree and especially with Bethany being a mage within the circle.  If Carver is alive he will side with the templars.  But to blow up innocent people, no I didn't agree with the method choosen and I didn't like the fact Hawke didn't have a choice in stopping what happened.   I should have had the opportunity as a player in helping the save the chantry and the people within or allow it to be blown up.  I never had a choice as a player and this ticked me off.

Anders makes it clear himself that he set the bomb.  That, at least, is not in question.

I don't see it that way but as I said he probably did.  All I'm saying is that we never see who actually plants the bomb, it could have been Meredith since it is done off screen, I"m just giving a what if possibility.  A player could also say that it was Justice period and not Anders.  Anders does say he took Justice into himself and changed his soul forever.  I see Justice in control of Anders the more I play the game, right from the start of the game.  That is Justice when we first go to Anders Clinic, since he glows blue.  With Acts II and III we see Justice more and more and less of Anders. 

If you go with the 'what if' possibility and allow yourself to see it was Meredith this does play into her hand of invoking the Right of Annulment.  This also plays into Orsino's hand with the Grand Cleric not protecting mages.  Anders/Justice even calls out Orsino on this at the beginning of the Last Straw.   Anders could also be just admitting his involvement with the underground railroad in helping mages escape.  Once again he never fully says right out he set the bomb, he is very cryptic in his answer.  My first playthrough I killed him and was his love interest, the more I play the game I'm starting to realize this might not be the case.  If nothing else it would be a great start to writing a fanfiction for DA2 with this possible outcome instead. 

Not to be combative , but you're making a ridiculous stretch.  Yes, we DO know that Anders set the bomb.  He makes it abundantly clear himself.  Playing the what-if game here is just silly.  There's no what if to be had.  Whether it was a conscious decision by Anders or Anders under the thrall of Justice depends on whether you rivaled him or not. 

1. Anders collects the ingredients, with or without Hawke's assistance.
2. Anders goes into the Chantry and sets his bomb.  Again with or without Hawke's assistance.
3. During the events of The Last Straw, Anders confronts Orsino and states "The Grand Cleric cannot help you," along with his other statement about half-measures.  An instant later, the Chantry explodes.  Everyone present blames Anders, and while he never once comes out and states "I set the bomb, I blew up the Grand Cleric," the lack of such an outright confession hardly stands as evidence that he didn't do it.  Not only does he never explicitly or implicitly deny guilt, he reacts to everyone's assumption of his guilt as if he is indeed guilty.  

You could argue that he's trying to protect someone else he was working with in the mage underground, but there's no evidence whatsoever to back that up.  But to suggest that Meredith could have been the culprit is as ludicrous as it gets in the face of the rest of the evidence.  Anders collected the ingredients and went into the Chantry to set his bomb, and did everything short of declare himself as the responsible party...and in the face of that you're going to posit the what if possibility that Meredith could have set the bomb?  Riiiiight.

Apparently, you keep missing the fact that I also said in all likelyhood that he probably did set the bomb.  I also said I see where it was Justice more so than Anders. Justice basically takes Anders completely over in Act 3.  I guess we choose to read what we choose to read!  You roleplay it your way and I'll roleplay it mine.  I'm just throwing out a what if possibilities, for discussion sake alone.  Don't take it personally.

Also, can you explain the Grand Cleric's odd comment that she hoped Anders found a bomb for balm for his soul?  This was a rather odd statement wouldn't you agree.  What an odd thing for her to tell Anders.  Anders also tells us he was helping mages escape during Act 2 so he was protecting mages as well so were templars.

ROFL.  I'm not taking it personally.  But there's what-ifs, and then there's what-ifs.  The idea that Meredith set the bomb isn't a plausible what-if unless you write an alternate history fanfiction for the setting.  We do know that Anders set the bomb, beyond any reasonable doubt.  The best alternate theory that anyone could argue is that he might've had inside help from some Circle mages or perhaps other apostates, but not Meredith.  Again, you'd have to completely disregard the information provided by the game to consider that even a remote possibility.

The Grand Cleric's statement to Anders that you refer to is "Your soul is troubled, young man.  I hope you found a balm for it here."  She doesn't say bomb at all.  Some players have reported thinking she said "bomb" if they didn't have the subtitles on, which I can imagine makes for a surreal moment if you know what's going to happen, but I think that's just an unintentional quirk.  She never actually says "bomb" at all.

[Silfren]

double post.  Sorry.

Modifié par Silfren, 31 mai 2011 - 02:03 .

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that?  The beginning is not exactly auspicious.  What are Anders and his revolutionary pals going to do if the people don't want their mage overlords?  Blow up all their institutions and town squares until they finally give in?  And how are they then going to enforce the new world order?

You still don't get that it's wrong to punish people for something you think they might do.  Wow.

What does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about the method you use to go about changing what you want to see changed.  How are you going to carry out a violent war against something that is ingrained in many, many people's minds, something which is part of their religious belief?  What's the plan for that?

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

The Grand Cleric's statement to Anders that you refer to is "Your soul is troubled, young man.  I hope you found a balm for it here."  She doesn't say bomb at all.  Some players have reported thinking she said "bomb" if they didn't have the subtitles on, which I can imagine makes for a surreal moment if you know what's going to happen, but I think that's just an unintentional quirk.  She never actually says "bomb" at all.

It's just clever wordplay by the devs.  Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to explain how Hawke knew about Gamlen's long lost daughter, whom Gamlen himself didn't even know existed.  After being sent on the various wild goose chases in that quest, Hawke says "It's time to end this charade" right before the cavern where you meet Gamlen's daughter... named Charade.

[Well]

Modifié par Well, 31 mai 2011 - 02:04 .

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

What does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about the method you use to go about changing what you want to see changed.  How are you going to carry out a violent war against something that is ingrained in many, many people's minds, something which is part of their religious belief?  What's the plan for that?

No, you said "As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that?"  I'm answering.  The burden of proof is on you, not us.

[Well]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Yeah, honestly. The Chantry's too powerful. It needs to get taken down a peg or two. It's usually more the problem than the solution and the religion is completely useless in solving problems. The Chantry blames mages for too much just for having more power. Even if you agree with the circle, the regulations of not being allowed to have a family of their own and being denied from even visiting their families is very harsh and then there's the 'kept in prison cells' part in certain Cicles across Thedas (including Kirkwall's).

What no twinkie defense?So it ok to murder people who arent problem solvers.

[armonistan]

I found Ander's actions to be unexcusable. What he did is give the perfect excuse for a madwoman to execute innocent people and fearmongers an example of what mages are "cursed" with should be dealt with. I found is actions disgusting, as did my Hawke and sent him away. I would not allow him the easy way of death. No he will wander the world seeing the chaos and anarchy he sown and death it will bring.

After rereading that, I sound pretty harsh... but such is price of his actions.

Just curious, what did you guys do with him? Like I said, I would not allow him the easy way (death) nor could I let him rejoin my party (me and hawke never liked him or his extremism, and his little act made me dislike even more) so I exiled him.

[Rifneno]

Well wrote...

What no twinkie defense?So it ok to murder people who arent problem solvers.

We started a drinking game where everytime someone uses that particular strawman, we each take a drink.  My friend Larry just died of alcohol poisoning after 10 minutes.  I hope you're happy with yourself.

armonistan wrote...

Just curious, what did you guys do with him? Like I said, I would not allow him the easy way (death) nor could I let him rejoin my party (me and hawke never liked him or his extremism, and his little act made me dislike even more) so I exiled him.

First time, I knifed him. &nbsp;All playthroughs thereafter where I'd had time to think about it all, I had Hawke tell him he won't need to wait for the templars to be wiped out before he gets a happy ending for that. $$$

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

It would surprise greatly me if they didn't. Or at least make the attempt. DA3 looks like it's going to be a bit of a clusterf***. I hope the story will be handled with a little more grace.

Honestly I doubt the Qunari invasion is as likely as many people think it is. They're already at war with Tevinter. If they sent their main force away to take control of the weakened Andrastian countries, they'd be leaving their own homeland wide open for invasion by the most ruthless and powerful mages in the world. Considering the bulk of the Qunari was defeated because of the Chantry's far more restricted (and thus far less dangerous) mages, they'd be pretty much hanging Par Vollen to Minrathos on a silver platter.