1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about the method you use to go about changing what you want to see changed.  How are you going to carry out a violent war against something that is ingrained in many, many people's minds, something which is part of their religious belief?  What's the plan for that?

No, you said "As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that?"  I'm answering.  The burden of proof is on you, not us.

There's no "burden of proof" for future events.  But like I've been saying, let's start with the fact that the mage overlords began their new world order in violent jihad, and go from there.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...
Honestly I doubt the Qunari invasion is as likely as many people think it is. They're already at war with Tevinter. If they sent their main force away to take control of the weakened Andrastian countries, they'd be leaving their own homeland wide open for invasion by the most ruthless and powerful mages in the world. Considering the bulk of the Qunari was defeated because of the Chantry's far more restricted (and thus far less dangerous) mages, they'd be pretty much hanging Par Vollen to Minrathos on a silver platter.

Fenris says the only reason the Qunari haven't overtaken Tevinter is that they don't want to.

[Addai]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Why do you keep calling them 'mage overlords'? There is no reason to think that freeing mages will lead to a magocracy when there is no cultural basis for one in any of the other countries outside of Tevinter. What Anders and co want is freedom from the Circle. If this revolution leads to that remains to be seen.

And what if the population isn't compliant?  They're going to have to enforce these new rules somehow.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My Dalish Warden thinks the Chantry can burn under magefire for all she cares. Perhaps if the elves and the Mages join together, they can form a government where everyone works together, like in the clan, and the mages are more like Keepers.  My Templar!Hawke feels that a reformed Andrasteism is the best way forward, one that restores Shartan's Canticle, and re-interprets the passages on magic being evil so that they pertain only to blood magic and deals with demons. One where the mages are still monitored, but not hated.

Did you listen to any of Fenris' descriptions of Tevinter?  Their system started out as what you're describing.

We also have the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain to see that societies that have tolerant views toward mages doesn't mean that these society will emulate the Tevinter Imperium.

Addai67 wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

That doesn't mean the same thing will happen again in Kirkwall.

Undertaking your transition to a more reasonable system is off to a great start with the pink wiz bomb lighting up the sky.  That really says "your new mage overlords are powers of good."

If the Hero of Ferelden is a mage who stopped the Fifth Blight that threatened an entire nation and ended the terror in Amaranthine brought by the Architect, the Mother, and all their darkspawn minions, we have a good counterpoint to the destruction of one single Chantry that was promptly followed by an act of genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children who were innocent of what Anders did.

Addai67 wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Yeah, honestly. The Chantry's too powerful. It needs to get taken down a peg or two. It's usually more the problem than the solution and the religion is completely useless in solving problems. The Chantry blames mages for too much just for having more power. Even if you agree with the circle, the regulations of not being allowed to have a family of their own and being denied from even visiting their families is very harsh and then there's the 'kept in prison cells' part in certain Cicles across Thedas (including Kirkwall's).

How is the Chantry too powerful?  In most places it has no say in the civil government at all. 

We can ask the Dalish of the Dales, if they weren't wandering nomads ever since the Exalted March. We can ask the nation of Ferelden, when the Chantry used its position to secure the Orlesian invasion of the nation. We can ask the mages across the continent of Thedas, who lived in dictatorships under Chantry control for nearly a milennia until they overthrow the ones subjugating them. We can ask the people of Kirkwall and their inability to have any independence because the Chantry's templars have a stronghold over the city-state.
 

Addai67 wrote...

In Ferelden the Chantry got purged after the rebellion, and only survived there as an institution at all because of popular faith.  That's what people keep missing- it's there because the people want it to be.  You can't forcibly root out people's faith.  If you try, you end up worse than that which you're fighting against.

You're conflating the faith of the people with the system lead by the Divine. Maric and Loghain contemplated the expulsion of the Chantry in Ferelden. Tevinter created their own seperate version of the Chantry in their nation. Anders is Andrastian without submitting himself to the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.

Addai67 wrote...

As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that? 

Besides all the non-Andrastian societies that have free mages and aren't trying to emulate the Imperium?

Addai67 wrote...

The beginning is not exactly auspicious.  What are Anders and his revolutionary pals going to do if the people don't want their mage overlords? 

You're neglecting the part where the mages want freedom from the Chantry and its templars, which was clear since Wynne spoke about it in Amaranthine (which is why there was a meeting in Cumberland). I don't see any indication the mages rebelled against the Chantry because they wanted to rule.

Addai67 wrote...

Blow up all their institutions and town squares until they finally give in?  And how are they then going to enforce the new world order?

The mages freed themselves from the Chantry, a point Varric makes when he says the Chantry lost the Circles. I'd wager the inevitable war will make it clear that the mages likely believe that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Judging mages on the basis of Tevinter magisters is like judging elves on the basis of the Dalish, or humans on the basis of Orlesian nobles when these are only a few out of a great many, very varied, groups of humans and elves. Culture does a lot more to shape you as a person than an in-born trait.

I'm not judging anyone.  I'm suggesting that Anders and Co. are on their way to round 2.  That's IF the Qunari don't sweep in and scoop up the leftovers.

Except the Circles weren't inspired by the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, but by the genocide of the Kirkwall Circle, and how they learned that "the mighty templars could be defied." If Hawke sided with the mages to protect the enchanters, mages, and apprentices against the templars trying to murder them, then he's seen as a hero to the mages across the continent, and it's the reason Cassandra seeks out Hawke to prevent a war - not Anders.

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You still don't get that it's wrong to punish people for something you think they might do.  Wow.

What does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about the method you use to go about changing what you want to see changed.  How are you going to carry out a violent war against something that is ingrained in many, many people's minds, something which is part of their religious belief?  What's the plan for that?

We don't know how the common people view these series of events. Cassandra thinks Hawke spread subversion against the Chantry when she's speaking to Varric - but why did she say this? Are people no longer viewing the templars favorably anymore? Could the possibility of the Champion siding with the mages make people re-consider the view that mages are evil if even Cullen - who says mages can't be treated as people and are weapons - wanted him brought in alive? We know that King Alistair is protecting apostates from templars. After the Circles broke free from the Chantry, the templars left the Chantry to hunt the mages.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 31 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Well wrote...

What no twinkie defense?So it ok to murder people who arent problem solvers.

We started a drinking game where everytime someone uses that particular strawman, we each take a drink.  My friend Larry just died of alcohol poisoning after 10 minutes.  I hope you're happy with yourself.

Poor Larry. He'll never see Part 2 of Doctor Who...

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

No, you said "As for the whole happy "well it won't be another Tevinter," how do you know that?"  I'm answering. The burden of proof is on you, not us.

There's no "burden of proof" for future events.  But like I've been saying, let's start with the fact that the mage overlords began their new world order in violent jihad, and go from there.

While Meredith becomes Adenoid Hynkel and oders the execution of countless men, women, and children for an act that Anders alone is responsible for.

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Honestly I doubt the Qunari invasion is as likely as many people think it is. They're already at war with Tevinter. If they sent their main force away to take control of the weakened Andrastian countries, they'd be leaving their own homeland wide open for invasion by the most ruthless and powerful mages in the world. Considering the bulk of the Qunari was defeated because of the Chantry's far more restricted (and thus far less dangerous) mages, they'd be pretty much hanging Par Vollen to Minrathos on a silver platter.

Fenris says the only reason the Qunari haven't overtaken Tevinter is that they don't want to.

Have you considered that this is merely his opinion, Fenris hates Tevinter, and he doesn't actually have any insight into why the leadership of the Qunari haven't taken over Thedas or the Imperium?

Addai67 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Why do you keep calling them 'mage overlords'? There is no reason to think that freeing mages will lead to a magocracy when there is no cultural basis for one in any of the other countries outside of Tevinter. What Anders and co want is freedom from the Circle. If this revolution leads to that remains to be seen.

And what if the population isn't compliant?  They're going to have to enforce these new rules somehow.

Have you considered the possibility of the mages not living with people who hate them? It's not like Marethari's clan was forced to live in Kirkwall - they lived seperate from the humans of the city-state.

[Dave of Canada]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Why do you keep calling them 'mage overlords'? There is no reason to think that freeing mages will lead to a magocracy when there is no cultural basis for one in any of the other countries outside of Tevinter. What Anders and co want is freedom from the Circle. If this revolution leads to that remains to be seen.

Mages (hypothetically) are freed.
Society hates and opposes mages.

Society won't sit back and allow mage freedom to roll over without incident, they'll fight back and oppose mages. Either by trying to kill them all (which society already does if it wasn't for the Templar) or try and recreate the Circles, the difference is that Mages won't be regarded as equals.

What do mages do? Sit around, letting themselves be killed or hunted by society? They either subjugate themselves under the rule of society once again, leaving their revolution as a pointless effort for absolutely nothing or they cull the masses until they stop rebelling and rule over them to stop them from hunting mages.

Which seeds the tree that is Tevinter 2.0

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 mai 2011 - 03:30 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Why do you keep calling them 'mage overlords'? There is no reason to think that freeing mages will lead to a magocracy when there is no cultural basis for one in any of the other countries outside of Tevinter. What Anders and co want is freedom from the Circle. If this revolution leads to that remains to be seen.

Mages (hypothetically) are freed.
Society hates and opposes mages.

Actually I take issue with the second part.  Most common people tend to fear mages rather than hate them.  It's the Chantry that espouses hatred towards mages, and then it becomes the responsibility of the STATE to protect mages (if only because they are a valuable resource!)

Society won't sit back and allow mage freedom to roll over without incident, they'll fight back and oppose mages. Either by trying to kill them all (which society already does if it wasn't for the Templar) or try and recreate the Circles, the difference is that Mages won't be regarded as equals.

You are engaging in a False Dilemna.  Society could appeal to the state to control mages, and in Fereldan that is already being done.  If mages have someone else to turn to, then your entire chain of logic is destroyed.  In addition, even in Kirkwall, we see there is growing sympathy for mages.  It's not as cut-and-dried as you think.

What do mages do? Sit around, letting themselves be killed or hunted by society? They either subjugate themselves under the rule of society once again, leaving their revolution as a pointless effort for absolutely nothing or they cull the masses until they stop rebelling and rule over them to stop them from hunting mages.

Which seeds the tree that is Tevinter 2.0

Except you are making a False Dilemna in order to try to justify a system that neither the Templars nor Mages will agree to.  Look at Fereldan to see how it will be done.  Mages will be incorporated into society, slowly but surely (and having mages foil Qunari invasions....and the Qunari are coming don't doubt that....will go a long way).  We already know from other societies that it is quite possible.

-Polaris

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
We can ask the Dalish of the Dales, if they weren't wandering nomads ever since the Exalted March. We can ask the nation of Ferelden, when the Chantry used its position to secure the Orlesian invasion of the nation. We can ask the mages across the continent of Thedas, who lived in dictatorships under Chantry control for nearly a milennia until they overthrow the ones subjugating them. We can ask the people of Kirkwall and their inability to have any independence because the Chantry's templars have a stronghold over the city-state.

And all of this was done in cooperation with civil governments.  Kirkwall has none, which is the only reason the Chantry is filling that void.

[Lethys1]

It's completely idiotic of Anders to blow up the chantry, and anyone who can't see that the Grand Cleric was the only chance mages had at being more free is completely idiotic as well.  And, it's terrorism directed at a group of people who are not personally responsible for the plight of the mages and are only figureheads in the situation at best.


It's also gonna make the situation worse because now more templars are gonna be stricter around the world and more mages are gonna go to blood magic, although based on the game, you'd think 3/4 mages were already blood mages, so it's like what's another one fourth anyway.  It's sickeningly poor writing from a company which has never stooped so low.  I was going into the game pro-mage and now I hated both sides.


It's not morally grey when both sides are equally evil and equally deserving to die.  The templars for genocide, and the mages for turning to blood magic and killing people.  There was no lesser of the two evils, both of them were just annoyingly evil and I wanted to kill all members of both sides and effectively be rid of this horrible situation.  Morally gray is when you've got one group who uphold the law but are unfair to a group, and the group is 95% good 5% bad and is unfairly treated as a result.  I can remember seeing no good mages except Bethany, and she's dead.


WHY DOES THE MAIN BLOOD MAGE WANT TO GO AFTER ME AFTER I SPOKE FOR THE MAGES' RIGHTS AND WAS WORKING FOR ORSINO?!?!?!!?


The family deaths being used as cheap plot devices, your main character having practically no effect on his surroundings despite being the most powerful character by far, and the way the game pigeonholes you into one plot no matter what has made this game the biggest disappointment for any entertainment product that I've ever seen.  That includes a list with Han****, Avatar, and every Call of Duty game. 

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Have you considered that this is merely his opinion, Fenris hates Tevinter, and he doesn't actually have any insight into why the leadership of the Qunari haven't taken over Thedas or the Imperium?

Fenris is also our only firsthand source of information about Tevinter to date.  But you're just going to ignore him because what he says doesn't fit the narrative, I take it.

Have you considered the possibility of the mages not living with people who hate them? It's not like Marethari's clan was forced to live in Kirkwall - they lived seperate from the humans of the city-state.

Ah yes, forcible repatriation.  That's always worked well in history.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Have you considered that this is merely his opinion, Fenris hates Tevinter, and he doesn't actually have any insight into why the leadership of the Qunari haven't taken over Thedas or the Imperium?
[/quote]
Fenris is also our only firsthand source of information about Tevinter to date.  But you're just going to ignore him because what he says doesn't fit the narrative, I take it.
[/quote]

Given his obvious bias, I would certainly take anything he says with a chunk of salt about the size of Texas.


[quote]
Have you considered the possibility of the mages not living with people who hate them? It's not like Marethari's clan was forced to live in Kirkwall - they lived seperate from the humans of the city-state.[/quote]
Ah yes, forcible repatriation.  That's always worked well in history.
[/quote]

Who said anything about forcible?  A voluntary seperation might be A solution.  Frankly I think that Alistair's solution is ultimately the best answer....magic and mages are a valuable resource of the state (and crown) and will be protected as such...which mages given appropriate rights as human beings.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

Right, it's a false dilemma that society (who's sympathy for mages evaporated when Anders blew up the Chantry) which has proven itself capable of killing mages will sit by and let mages join them and that mages who are fighting for liberation is going to submit to somebody else.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 mai 2011 - 03:46 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Right, it's a false dilemma that society (who's sympathy for mages evaporated when Anders blew up the Chantry) which has proven itself capable of killing mages will sit by and let mages join them and that mages who are fighting for liberation is going to submit to somebody else.

Orsino was willing to submit to the Chantry up until Anders blew up the Chantry....AFTER even.  He was willing to back down.  It was Meredith that forced the Right of Annulment.  Mages have shown that they are willing to meet more than halfway with those that are willing to do the same.

I'd say the next move is King Alistair going "Church of England" on the Chantry over magic.

As for society, the Chantry ==/== Society or even Societal beliefs.  The Chantry has a large influence to be sure, but they aren't the last word and people won't go slaughter mages just because the Chantry says so (and apparently they HAVEN'T....remember the Templars have rebelled too).

-Polaris

[ipgd]

Lethys1 wrote...

It's completely idiotic of Anders to blow up the chantry, and anyone who can't see that the Grand Cleric was the only chance mages had at being more free is completely idiotic as well.  And, it's terrorism directed at a group of people who are not personally responsible for the plight of the mages and are only figureheads in the situation at best.

Did you listen to anything the Grand Cleric said? Her entire role in the story was to symbolically represent the status quo. That is what Anders was striking against when he killed her and destroyed the Chantry. Elthina would have done nothing to free the mages. Her only vested interest was in maintaining the status quo and compromise, which was unacceptable to Anders.

Anders was not trying to solve the local Kirkwall problem. If he were, he would have bombed the templar barracks -- instead, by bombing the chantry, he was making a symbolic attack on The Compromise Elthina represents and the centuries old institutionalized fear and hatred that the Chantry represents.

[Well]

Modifié par Well, 31 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Orsino was willing to submit to the Chantry up until Anders blew up the Chantry....AFTER even.  He was willing to back down.  It was Meredith that forced the Right of Annulment.  Mages have shown that they are willing to meet more than halfway with those that are willing to do the same.

And that wasn't the rebellion, he was trying to meet halfway to save his folks when cornered and he knew there was no chance for survival against the Templar armies. The rebellion started afterward, I doubt they'd be ready to meet halfway now that the Circles have "set the world on fire".

The Chantry has a large influence to be sure, but they aren't the last word and people won't go slaughter mages just because the Chantry says so

Society doesn't need the Chantry to tell them to do it, they've already done it on their own just fine. Wynne confirms it and even in DA:O, mage Warden is told a few times that the people won't harm them because they've been told by the Chantry mother not to.

 (and apparently they HAVEN'T....remember the Templars have rebelled too).

And who do you think the majority of people would side with?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 mai 2011 - 03:59 .

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Who said anything about forcible?  A voluntary seperation might be A solution.  Frankly I think that Alistair's solution is ultimately the best answer....magic and mages are a valuable resource of the state (and crown) and will be protected as such...which mages given appropriate rights as human beings.

-Polaris

And what about the mages who don't want to live on Anders Island?  Who would rather go home to be with their families?  What if the residents of this new place don't want mages living there?  Or the neighbors?  And how is any of this better than the Circles?

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Orsino was willing to submit to the Chantry up until Anders blew up the Chantry....AFTER even.  He was willing to back down.  It was Meredith that forced the Right of Annulment.  Mages have shown that they are willing to meet more than halfway with those that are willing to do the same.

And that wasn't the rebellion, he was trying to meet halfway to save his folks when cornered and he knew there was no chance for survival against the Templar armies. The rebellion started afterward, I doubt they'd be ready to meet halfway now that the Circles have "set the world on fire".

He was willing to do so before.  At Cumberland, there weren't pointy Templar swords, but the mages chose moderation.  The point being is that the mages are capable of meeting other powers half-way if given the same courtesy.  Look to Fereldan!

The Chantry has a large influence to be sure, but they aren't the last word and people won't go slaughter mages just because the Chantry says so

Society doesn't need the Chantry to tell them to do it, they've already done it on their own just fine. Wynne confirms it and even in DA:O, mage Warden is told a few times that the people won't harm them because of what they've been told by the Chantry mother not to.

Which puts the Chanty in a very bad light you realize I hope?  The point, however, is that people FEAR mages and the Chantry encourages bad behavior by mundanes towards mages in large part to justify the system as it exists.  However, does that mean that peasents will spontaneously rise with pitchforks, tar, and feathers and march towards the nearest rebellious tower without somone egging them on?  Not hardly.  That's the difference between hate and fear.

I could see the Templars rousing some villages to try this, but it won't be spontaneous.  Murdering a six year old mage-child is a very different proposition from taking on a group of trained mages in their own element and even the stupidest of peasants knows this.

The peasents will demand that the Crown protect them from mages since the Chantry and Templars can't do it, and the Crown will....and as long as peace is maintained, the peasentry will be happy.

 (and apparently they HAVEN'T....remember the Templars have rebelled too).

And who do you think the majority of people would side with?

Who cares?  Its the nobility that matters in Thedas, and I think a large number are going to side with the mage if only because the Chantry has gotten far too big for it's political britches and the nobility are itching for a chance to take the Chantry down a peg or three....and you DID see that during the entire series even in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

[Well]

Rifneno wrote...

Well wrote...

What no twinkie defense?So it ok to murder people who arent problem solvers.

We started a drinking game where everytime someone uses that particular strawman, we each take a drink.  My friend Larry just died of alcohol poisoning after 10 minutes.  I hope you're happy with yourself.

armonistan wrote...

Just curious, what did you guys do with him? Like I said, I would not allow him the easy way (death) nor could I let him rejoin my party (me and hawke never liked him or his extremism, and his little act made me dislike even more) so I exiled him.

First time, I knifed him.  All playthroughs thereafter where I'd had time to think about it all, I had Hawke tell him he won't need to wait for the templars to be wiped out before he gets a happy ending for that. $$$

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

It would surprise greatly me if they didn't. Or at least make the attempt. DA3 looks like it's going to be a bit of a clusterf***. I hope the story will be handled with a little more grace.

Honestly I doubt the Qunari invasion is as likely as many people think it is. They're already at war with Tevinter. If they sent their main force away to take control of the weakened Andrastian countries, they'd be leaving their own homeland wide open for invasion by the most ruthless and powerful mages in the world. Considering the bulk of the Qunari was defeated because of the Chantry's far more restricted (and thus far less dangerous) mages, they'd be pretty much hanging Par Vollen to Minrathos on a silver platter.

I sure am.You go ahead and continue with your

"We started a drinking game where everytime someone uses that particular strawman, we each take a drink."

That got old years ago.You continue on with it.There are Seniors at retirement homes who are reminiscing about when they had their 286's and that was popular sctick.

Modifié par Well, 31 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Who said anything about forcible?  A voluntary seperation might be A solution.  Frankly I think that Alistair's solution is ultimately the best answer....magic and mages are a valuable resource of the state (and crown) and will be protected as such...which mages given appropriate rights as human beings.

-Polaris

And what about the mages who don't want to live on Anders Island?  Who would rather go home to be with their families?  What if the residents of this new place don't want mages living there?  Or the neighbors?  And how is any of this better than the Circles?

Which is why I am not fond of this solution, but it IS a possible solution.  Frankly magic is a valuable resource and only the stupidest of kings and queens won't recognize it as such.  That means that ultimately mages will be protected by Royal Arms if necessary. 

Ultimately I think that regulation of magic will shift from the Chantry to the State and that is a good thing.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Except in the case when there is no state, as in Kirkwall, I presume.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
We can ask the Dalish of the Dales, if they weren't wandering nomads ever since the Exalted March. We can ask the nation of Ferelden, when the Chantry used its position to secure the Orlesian invasion of the nation. We can ask the mages across the continent of Thedas, who lived in dictatorships under Chantry control for nearly a milennia until they overthrow the ones subjugating them. We can ask the people of Kirkwall and their inability to have any independence because the Chantry's templars have a stronghold over the city-state.

And all of this was done in cooperation with civil governments.  Kirkwall has none, which is the only reason the Chantry is filling that void.

Kirkwall has had Viscounts as leaders in its history. Kirkwall had none when the Knight-Commander became a dictator by refusing the appointment of a new Viscountand managed to have civilians, nobles, mages, and even some templars want Meredith overthrown.

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have you considered that this is merely his opinion, Fenris hates Tevinter, and he doesn't actually have any insight into why the leadership of the Qunari haven't taken over Thedas or the Imperium?

Fenris is also our only firsthand source of information about Tevinter to date.  But you're just going to ignore him because what he says doesn't fit the narrative, I take it.

You talked about the Qunari and why they didn't invade Thedas, not about the macinations of Tevinter.

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have you considered the possibility of the mages not living with people who hate them? It's not like Marethari's clan was forced to live in Kirkwall - they lived seperate from the humans of the city-state.

Ah yes, forcible repatriation.  That's always worked well in history.

I don't recall society waging war against the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders in modern times, despite the fact that both groups have free mages in their societies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Ultimately I think that regulation of magic will shift from the Chantry to the State and that is a good thing.

-Polaris

Exactly.

Magic cannot stand as its own isolated agenda. It needs to be part of a larger movement. In Thedas' case, the rise of nations.