1207 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Except in the case when there is no state, as in Kirkwall, I presume.

A state usurped by the Chantry, yes.

But frankly I do not see that the Free Marches have a future as a collection of independent City-States. It would make far moe sense for Nevarra to annex them.

[LobselVith8]

Lethys1 wrote...

It's completely idiotic of Anders to blow up the chantry, and anyone who can't see that the Grand Cleric was the only chance mages had at being more free is completely idiotic as well.  

You're welcome to disagree with what Anders did, and many people on both sides of the mages and templar debate do, but Grand Cleric Elthina didn't do anything even when Hawke presented her with evidence of wrong-doing.

Lethys1 wrote...

And, it's terrorism directed at a group of people who are not personally responsible for the plight of the mages and are only figureheads in the situation at best.

Anders may have been wrong in what he did, but it doesn't change that he's responsible for the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry - not the Circle of Magi. Meredith orders their execution, hand-waves Anders' existance, and her templars follow orders.

Lethys1 wrote...

It's also gonna make the situation worse because now more templars are gonna be stricter around the world and more mages are gonna go to blood magic, although based on the game, you'd think 3/4 mages were already blood mages, so it's like what's another one fourth anyway.  

Most of the mage antagonists we encounter are outside the Gallows, and many have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall.

Lethys1 wrote...

It's sickeningly poor writing from a company which has never stooped so low.  I was going into the game pro-mage and now I hated both sides.

Gaider made it clear he felt people sided with mages "automatically," but we still get the Knight-Commander condemning the Circle mages for an act an apostate committed. Also, I would have preferred a pro-active Hawke instead of the reactive Hawke we were presented with.

Lethys1 wrote...

It's not morally grey when both sides are equally evil and equally deserving to die.  The templars for genocide, and the mages for turning to blood magic and killing people.  

Templars can nullify ordinary magic, so I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic.

Lethys1 wrote...

There was no lesser of the two evils, both of them were just annoyingly evil and I wanted to kill all members of both sides and effectively be rid of this horrible situation.  Morally gray is when you've got one group who uphold the law but are unfair to a group, and the group is 95% good 5% bad and is unfairly treated as a result.  I can remember seeing no good mages except Bethany, and she's dead.

There was Tobrius, Terrie, Emile, Ella, I'd argue Alain, and we saw Circle mages fighting templars without resorting to blood magic. The problem is we never really meet the hundreds of mages living in the Gallows; Bethany and Orsino are the two mages from the Circle we have any real extended time with, and they couldn't be more dissimilar.

Lethys1 wrote...

WHY DOES THE MAIN BLOOD MAGE WANT TO GO AFTER ME AFTER I SPOKE FOR THE MAGES' RIGHTS AND WAS WORKING FOR ORSINO?!?!?!!?

You mean Grace? Because everyone in Kirkwall needs to act like they had a lobotomy to further the linear story the writers wanted to tell, where Hawke lacked agency and we barely had any choices that mattered, especially when the mage and templar endings are virtually identical to one another.

Lethys1 wrote...

The family deaths being used as cheap plot devices, your main character having practically no effect on his surroundings despite being the most powerful character by far, and the way the game pigeonholes you into one plot no matter what has made this game the biggest disappointment for any entertainment product that I've ever seen.  That includes a list with Han****, Avatar, and every Call of Duty game. 

I have no idea why the creators decided to force the player through such a narrow and linear story, but it's been made clear that people took issue with it to the extent that Mike Laidlaw made a post about it.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall society waging war against the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders in modern times, despite the fact that both groups have free mages in their societies.

Which society are you talking about?  The Tevinters did.  Ferelden hasn't, because they live in territory where no one else wants to live.  They can't settle down in the middle of Ferelden.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Ultimately I think that regulation of magic will shift from the Chantry to the State and that is a good thing.

-Polaris

Exactly.

Magic cannot stand as its own isolated agenda. It needs to be part of a larger movement. In Thedas' case, the rise of nations.

And then the state gets to decide who its public enemies are.  What's the difference?

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...
And then the state gets to decide who its public enemies are.  What's the difference?

The state doesn't have a vested interest in maligning it's mages.  The Chantry does.  There are some things that the State is good at and Organized Religion is not, and running/regulating magic (or any resource) is one of them.

-Polaris

[AndreaDraco]

LobselVith8 wrote...
[...] Grand Cleric Elthina didn't do anything even when Hawke presented her with evidence of wrong-doing.

There's more. She was a slothful, pusillanimous coward who, de facto, by doing absolutely nothing but sitting on her hands and telling herself that everything was the Maker's will, allowed Meredith and her zealots to run Kirkwall as they pleased, torturing and enslaving the Mages.

For this reason, why I wouldn't have chosen his course of action, I understand why Anders did what he did. His is an act of revolution and, appropriately, he struck the very symbol of Kirkwall's immobilism.

[Soul Cool]

From a personal standpoint: No, I was extremely unhappy that I was railroaded into allowing it to happen, and that my character was an accessory to the act.

From my character's viewpoint: Well, there may or may not have been a conflict that might possibly have resulted in someone ceasing that whole 'breathing' business.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Exactly.

Magic cannot stand as its own isolated agenda. It needs to be part of a larger movement. In Thedas' case, the rise of nations.

And then the state gets to decide who its public enemies are. What's the difference?

There will always be an enemy.
But we are talking about regulating mages and states have a stronger interest in integrating mages than the Chantry does (an institution that can only survive if mages are secluded).

[Shadow Raziel]

To answer the op's question... no I was not, To me Anders was no better than Meredith. He was just the lunatic fringe on the other side of the issue.

[ExaltedReign]

I liked it. Though you could see it coming a mile away. What with Anders' radical views and hostility with other companions. (He totally flipped **** with aveline for no reason)


I just want to know how he did it. He had a strict No Blood-magic policy, and as far as we know, theres nothing that can cause that kind of damage.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall society waging war against the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders in modern times, despite the fact that both groups have free mages in their societies.

Which society are you talking about?  The Tevinters did.  Ferelden hasn't, because they live in territory where no one else wants to live.  They can't settle down in the middle of Ferelden.

That was centuries ago. I clearly stated "modern times" in my comment because there's no war being waged against the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders in modern times, despite the fact that there are free mages in their societies.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
There will always be an enemy.
But we are talking about regulating mages and states have a stronger interest in integrating mages than the Chantry does (an institution that can only survive if mages are secluded).

That's not true.  Obviously there are other forms of Andrastianism than the current White form.

What I favor is a peaceful reform of the Chantry from within, by Andrastian mages among others.  Like my canon Warden (my current avatar), who's an Andrastian elf mage in a position to assert a positive influence as Hero of Ferelden and royal chancellor.  Something like that would take time, of course, and probably wouldn't be bloodless in the end, but it was already under way in the plot hinted at by Wynne in Awakening.  I guess they thought they needed something more dramatic, though.  I'd rather have seen the Cumberland route, something more subtle and political, than the big boom.

Modifié par Addai67, 31 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall society waging war against the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders in modern times, despite the fact that both groups have free mages in their societies.

Which society are you talking about?  The Tevinters did.  Ferelden hasn't, because they live in territory where no one else wants to live.  They can't settle down in the middle of Ferelden.

That was centuries ago. I clearly stated "modern times" in my comment because there's no war being waged against the Avvar tribes or the Chasind Wilders in modern times, despite the fact that there are free mages in their societies.

Because no one cares whether they live or die.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

I'd rather have seen the Cumberland route, something more subtle and political, than the big boom.

Wynne notes that the Cumberland route would have resulted in the Chantry trying to kill all the mages rather than see them free, which is why she opposed the Circles of Magi trying to liberate themselves from the Chantry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
There will always be an enemy.
But we are talking about regulating mages and states have a stronger interest in integrating mages than the Chantry does (an institution that can only survive if mages are secluded).

That's not true.  Obviously there are other forms of Andrastianism than the current White form.

Talking about the Chantry in its current form. Not Andrastrianism.
Hence why I said "Institution" and not "religion".

Unless the Chantry changes radically, which I don't see happening without external pressure, it's an institution that needs to monopolize mages and Lyrium to retain its power. Any reform is going to reduce its power.

What I favor is a peaceful reform of the Chantry from within, by Andrastian mages among others.

Reforms almost never happen without external pressure. Mages on their own can't provide that kind of pressure (hence why I reject Anders' route). States can.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 mai 2011 - 05:24 .

[Mirthadrond]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Meredith asks Hawke to kill the men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle to appease the mob. She makes it clear that "the people will demand blood," which is why she invokes the Right of Annulment. And the actions of a single man doesn't mean every enchanter, mage, and apprentice is a blood mage. Considering there are at least hundreds of mages living in the Gallows (at the time of Genitivi's codex, which doesn't include the influx of all the Starkhaven Circle mages who were relocated to Kirkwall), Hawke mostly encounters mages outside the Gallows, many of whom have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall.

No 'every' mage was not a blood mage, but I encountered an awful lot of them.  Despite my 'mage' support the entire game, they still attacked me.
That justifies Merediths ROA about as much as Anders blowing up the Chantry.

I suppose that is just bad story telling on Biowares part.

[IanPolaris]

Mirthadrond wrote...


No 'every' mage was not a blood mage, but I encountered an awful lot of them.  Despite my 'mage' support the entire game, they still attacked me.
That justifies Merediths ROA about as much as Anders blowing up the Chantry.

I suppose that is just bad story telling on Biowares part.

Frankly, yes it is.  Bioware deliberately went OTT with the eviiil, crazy bloodmage angle (and by their own admission) and did so because the designers felt in DAO that siding with mages was the 'default' choice and it apparently irritated the Devs including DG.

-Polaris

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'd rather have seen the Cumberland route, something more subtle and political, than the big boom.

Wynne notes that the Cumberland route would have resulted in the Chantry trying to kill all the mages rather than see them free, which is why she opposed the Circles of Magi trying to liberate themselves from the Chantry.

I'm talking about how I'd rather have seen the story played out.  Even if in the end the world was still at war, it would have been more interesting and realistic had it been through fracture within the Chantry and Circles.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Mirthadrond wrote...



No
'every' mage was not a blood mage, but I encountered an awful lot of
them.  Despite my 'mage' support the entire game, they still attacked
me.

That justifies Merediths ROA about as much as Anders blowing up the Chantry.



I suppose that is just bad story telling on Biowares part.

It's also the silent hill of silent hill.

That whole city should be razed... it's built in order to channel negative energy. Have you ever seen the ending to the first Ghostbusters? The House on Haunted Hill? The Haunting of Hill House? Rose Red? Poltergeist? The Amityville Horror? "Oh hey, look, a cursed place. You know what would be a great idea to put here? A mental institution filled with psychically active people. Oh look the house has started to try to eat people again. WHO COULD POSSIBLY HAVE GUESSED?" 

You build on a hellmouth, and you get madness upon madness upon madness. Then you imprison people in an old prison and toruture chamber, in a town built for mysterious arcane purposes, which may have the face of the old gods literally carved upon its cliffs? The decision to psychologically torture a bunch of people who are incredibly sensitive to psychic energy on top of a hellmouth created by blood magic is literally the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Seriously, it would have been better to let all those circle mages wander the woods of Ferelden than send them to a bloody hellmouth.

WHY DOES NOBODY ACKNOWLEDGE THIS? It's like nobody in this bloody universe knows a scrap of basic magical theory.

They should raze the city, and then do something to the cliffs along the channel, so that there's no impetus to ever try to rebuild. Maybe it's for the best that Seb's gonna raze Kirkwall.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 31 mai 2011 - 05:29 .

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

What I favor is a peaceful reform of the Chantry from within, by Andrastian mages among others. 
...
I guess they thought they needed something more dramatic, though.

Well, aside from the fact that it's a game and slow political change wouldn't be much fun...  there's also the fact that it is very rare for truly big changes to be accomplished without bloodshed.  In medieval societies, I think it was even more rare.

I've seen some interesting arguments for how the change might be accomplished over a few decades by careful efforts, but I remain unconvinced that it would actually work.  The mages have been waiting 1000 years after all, and gotten just about nowhere.  Elthina couldn't even be bothered to stop the Templars flouting laws that were already in place to protect the mages, let alone take steps toward real freedom.

The player may or may not like Anders' choice of target (the Chantry rather than Templar barracks for example) but I think bloodshed of some sort is required for the mages to acquire any real freedom.  Once it's clear that the mages are willing to fight for their freedom, then the political process may kick into gear to see about doing it with as little chaos as possible.  Without the mages being willing to fight, it is quite likely that no one else will bother to free them.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Reforms almost never happen without external pressure. Mages on their own can't provide that kind of pressure (hence why I reject Anders' route). States can.

I don't know how you can say that so definitively.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Reforms almost never happen without external pressure. Mages on their own can't provide that kind of pressure (hence why I reject Anders' route). States can.

I don't know how you can say that so definitively.

There's a banter where Anders asks Sebastian what he tells people when they ask about the supression of mages in relation to Andraste's views on slavery.

Seb basically says "meh, nobody ever asks that," in a way that implies that he has never even thought about it, and doesn't care to.

That's when my devout ex-Templar Andrastian Reformationist turned and said "Baby? TO THE GROUND." 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 31 mai 2011 - 05:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Mirthadrond wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith asks Hawke to kill the men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle to appease the mob. She makes it clear that "the people will demand blood," which is why she invokes the Right of Annulment. And the actions of a single man doesn't mean every enchanter, mage, and apprentice is a blood mage. Considering there are at least hundreds of mages living in the Gallows (at the time of Genitivi's codex, which doesn't include the influx of all the Starkhaven Circle mages who were relocated to Kirkwall), Hawke mostly encounters mages outside the Gallows, many of whom have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall.

No 'every' mage was not a blood mage, but I encountered an awful lot of them.  Despite my 'mage' support the entire game, they still attacked me.

I encountered an awful lot of carta members, but it doesn't mean most dwarves are members of this criminal organization. Plenty of people have complained about the "waves" of antagonists faced by Hawke throughout the three Acts, particularly enemies who can parachute from the air.

Mirthadrond wrote...

That justifies Merediths ROA about as much as Anders blowing up the Chantry.

One could argue that Hawke's ignorance about the hundreds of men, women, and children means he isn't in a position to condemn them all to execution.

Mirthadrond wrote...

I suppose that is just bad story telling on Biowares part.

I agree that the storyline was bad - from the lack of agency and control Hawke had, to everyone holding the Idiot Ball. Orsino becoming a Harvester for no reason, Meredith becoming a Super-Saiyan, and Hawke being reactive to such heights that he felt more like a caricature than a character.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Reforms almost never happen without external pressure. Mages on their own can't provide that kind of pressure (hence why I reject Anders' route). States can.

I don't know how you can say that so definitively.

A quick read through history pretty much confirms what KoP is saying.  As Heinlein once famously put it in Starship Troopers (read the book, forget the movie), "Violence has solved more issues than all other means in human history combined."  He's right too.  Mages aren't able (from sheer lack of numbers) to impose enough violence (or the threat of violence) on the Chantry to get them to change.  The Crown(s) are another matter entirely especially if they see the reproachment with mages are vital to their security and prosperity (very likely if and when the Qunari invade and Fereldan for one is already there).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Reforms almost never happen without external pressure. Mages on their own can't provide that kind of pressure (hence why I reject Anders' route). States can.

I don't know how you can say that so definitively.

Based on history. Why owuld the Chantry ever accept reducing its power without being pressured to?