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Was anyone happy over Anders decision in Act III?


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#51
Envor44

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I dislikes the Chantry...but that explosion were out of line, although he believe that his cause were just and that Mages about back for their freedom. How many innocents life would be lost in the process of war.  I could also tells that not every mages ask for liberation(afraid of certain genocide obviously), he'd just make a big decesion for every mages in Thedas by blow up the Chantry. Way to to gain support destroy a place of worship, now...not just the Templar who after mages.  And i don't think he'd been planned for long-terms,although that is needed to happened it won't end well even the Circle won, and the Chantry lose.

That said...the Mages also had slim chance to won, most of all I don't like how Anders lying to Hawke, well, I kind of agree with Sebastian about "selfish" part(You know what i mean if you romanced Anders).

I liked Elthina though as she seems like only sanity person.and a true power of Kirkwall..but that very useless and also blinded by her own beliefs, sadly the game...forcing you to play by it plot, there's no way to help Templar Rebels group to overthrow Meredith(stupid Grace...you regular son of a whor*).

Overall regard of how much i'd think mages deserve better, and even i sided with them ingame Thedas probably be very chaotic place with mages who run loose turned to blood magic, and there's no (good) Templar to keep peace.

Bearbeitet von Envor44, 24 Mai 2011 - 10:28 .


#52
Sister Helen

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I'm in the minority, on this thread. 

I was entirely devastated by the blowing up of the Chantry. Some actions cannot be justified -- you do not blow up churches, ever.  

Had Elthina survived, I think she would have forgiven Anders, as a tormented soul who had lost his connection to the Maker. (Maybe Justice was the cause of that loss...?)

#53
Jewelisms

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On my first play through I knew what Anders was going to do before he did it (ran across it somewhere here) and I actually walked away from the game for a few hours to think about how I felt about it.  I can't think of a single other game that has had that effect on me.

While I liked Elthina well enough as a person - she seemed nice enough -  she could have prevented all of it by stepping in and keeping Meridith in line and introducing some sanity into the situation.  Instead, she took a "head in the sand" approach to all of it.  "They will work it out if the Maker wills it".  I guess the Maker didn't care.  Sometimes mediation is required and she didn't have the guts to step in and actually mediate.  Sending Meridith and Orisno to their rooms at the beginning of Act III was weak at best.  Elthina's inaction spoke volumes to me as to where she really stood.

So, within the context of the game, I'm not unhappy about it.  I do kind of wish Sebastian was in there, though, as I cannot think of another DA character that annoyed me as much as he did.  I can't stand the Chantry as an institution.  I think they have way too much power.  And I have a lot of sympathy for the mages in Kirkwall because of how they are treated.  That so many are made tranquil after passing their Harrowings is unconsionable to me.  Was blowing up the Chantry an extreme action?  Yes, there is no denying that and Anders knew it.  He knew there was no going back and it seemed to me that he felt remorse at doing it, even though he felt it had to be done.

Honestly, what upset me more was that Anders lied to Hawke and never gave her the chance to actually help him (ya know with full knowledge that she was helping).  It would have been nice to actually have that choice.

It also would have been a good option to be able to plot with the sympathetic Templars & mages to overthrow Meridith as an alternative to the blowing up the Chantry.  I do wish there had been an option like that to actually avoid the whole bomb thing (though it was a gorgeous explosion!).

#54
Rifneno

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Rojahar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Anders wanted to remove any source of compromise and push Meredith to invoke the ROA. He was perfectly willing to sacrifice mages for the sake of the cause, and he has a lot of Kirkwall mage blood on his hands as a result of what he did with the Chantry.

He wanted a symbol and he wanted a war between the mages and templars. He destroyed the Chantry because there would be no going back.


It's surprising to me how many people miss that.

Anders couldn't have made his intentions more clear.


People are too busy hating the Chantry because it reminds them of real world religion and authority.


As opposed to the people too busy hating Anders because he reminds them of real world terrorists.  FFS, a couple posts up from this someone compares him to McVeigh.  Which is the second time I've seen that comparison in a day.  Nice double standard.

Envor44 wrote...

I dislikes the Chantry...but that explosion were out of line, although he believe that his cause were just and that Mages about back for their freedom. How many innocents life would be lost in the process of war.  I could also tells that not every mages ask for liberation(afraid of certain genocide obviously), he'd just make a big decesion for every mages in Thedas by blow up the Chantry. Way to to gain support destroy a place of worship, now...not just the Templar who after mages.  And i don't think he'd been planned for long-terms,although that is needed to happened it won't end well even the Circle won, and the Chantry lose.


1.  How many innocents will die if the Chantry's reign of terror continues another thousand years?  Far, far more than will die in a war for freedom.
2.  I'm sure some of the more well treated slaves weren't particularly excited about Lincoln's decision either.  Doesn't mean they shouldn't have been freed.
3.  The public support game could play out any number of ways.  It is far from certain that Anders alienated the mages from the public.  The more fervent Chantry followers were never going to question the Chantry's iron fist of "mercy" no matter what.  Random folk with no pre-existing bias could be alienated by Anders' bombing but they might also see it as a grave injustice by the templars, who literally ignored the true guilty party after he confessed right in front of them and went on to attempt genocide against a group that had no part in the attack.

I liked Elthina though as she seems like only sanity person.and a true power of Kirkwall..but that very useless and also blinded by her own beliefs,


I agree, she is the only sane one around.  Which is part of the reason I hold her responsible.  Meredith suffered severe emotional trauma from the incident with her sister and now she's being more or less controlled by some ancient unspeakable evil.  Anders has been abused by the Chantry most of his life, now he's got a crazy spirit in his head and Arch-Douche Alrik basically stole his lover's soul for the express purpose of making an example out of him.  There's two groups of crazies pushing each other to even crazier all the time.  Elthina had no detrimental mental problem mitigating her failure.  She was of perfectly clear mind when she made the conscious decision to sit back and let things boil over.  It was her job to make Meredith follow Chantry law and at least be humane to her charges, and it was her duty to her people not to virtually guarantee an inevitable war  **** her.

Sister Helen wrote...

I was entirely devastated by the blowing up of the Chantry. Some actions cannot be justified -- you do not blow up churches, ever.


Good thing it's not a church then. That is a term exclusively for Christianity. (I guess that works both ways, eh Rojahar?) The Chantry is not a peaceful religion, it is a military power greater than most if not all nations in Thedas. Do remember that the Divine was preparing an army to crush Kirkwall, that's why Leliana said Elthina needs to leave the city. Considering that, I find it hard to imagine how they're not a valid military target.

#55
Jugo616

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HTTP 404 wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

I certainly was. The Grand Cleric is the most useless person there. Not only did she not watch her lunatic fringe groups carefully, she didn't try to take a stand for anything. You could say it was due to her religious beliefs but if that were true she would've been more firm in remaining neutral to the politics around Kirkwall.

What does she do? Absolutely nothing. All she ever offered anyone were a bunch of empty anaologies about the Maker.

Maybe some of you might disagree, but I think even a religion needs to take a stand in conflicts like that. The Chantry was just hypocritically ignoring atrocities and turning about face to their own involvement in some instances. The Grand Cleric didn't bother doing a thing. She just strikes me as irresponsible and two-faced behind that kind smile.

She's a coward and I'm glad Anders was able to make use of her. After all, in politics, if you're not going to get more power then you can sure as hell bet that someone else will. It's partly because the Chantry didn't take a stand that the situation deteriorated as it did.


I got a degree in Criminal Justice and this is what you call "victim blaming"


I too study law. If anything it most reseambles a political assassination.

#56
Biotic_Warlock

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Well it's not nice he blew up the chantry, when it pretty much had nothing to do with meredith.
Tho i do dislike the way mages are treated.

#57
MassFrost

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I was happy in that it allowed me to have a reason to kill him immediately after. Does that count?

#58
Cutlass Jack

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Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Everyone keeps throwing 'terrorism' around every which way. How many of you realize that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Don't believe me? Look at the American revolution. The Founders of America were considered terrorists to the legitimate government of the King at the time.


That would be because Anders act was the very definition of an act of terrorism. Note the city errupting into terror following the act and the non-combatant target. If he had been going after a military target actually holding the mages (i.e. Meredith) it would have been a different story.

But to answer your question in the OP, no I certainly wasn't happy about it. As he learned quite directly a few moments later. Its great that you think people who do 'nothing' deserve death. Me? I only kill them when they do something unforgivable.

Or try to kill me. But thats self defense! Honest. they fell on my dagger...and exploded.Eingefügtes Bild

#59
lobi

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MassFrost wrote...

I was happy in that it allowed me to have a reason to kill him immediately after. Does that count?

I really wanted the murder knife when he pointlessly killed that poor little tranquil guy. 

#60
HTTP 404

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Jugo616 wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

I certainly was. The Grand Cleric is the most useless person there. Not only did she not watch her lunatic fringe groups carefully, she didn't try to take a stand for anything. You could say it was due to her religious beliefs but if that were true she would've been more firm in remaining neutral to the politics around Kirkwall.

What does she do? Absolutely nothing. All she ever offered anyone were a bunch of empty anaologies about the Maker.

Maybe some of you might disagree, but I think even a religion needs to take a stand in conflicts like that. The Chantry was just hypocritically ignoring atrocities and turning about face to their own involvement in some instances. The Grand Cleric didn't bother doing a thing. She just strikes me as irresponsible and two-faced behind that kind smile.

She's a coward and I'm glad Anders was able to make use of her. After all, in politics, if you're not going to get more power then you can sure as hell bet that someone else will. It's partly because the Chantry didn't take a stand that the situation deteriorated as it did.


I got a degree in Criminal Justice and this is what you call "victim blaming"


I too study law. If anything it most reseambles a political assassination.


Eingefügtes Bildwhat anders did could be that but Phoenix_Loftian did in op, is victim blaming.  A lot of people do it though, including myself.  A more common example is when a woman is out late at night jogging at the park and she gets raped.  Many of us would say "why was she jogging late at night?" versus putting all blame on the rapist and accepting that women should not be out late jogging as a norm.

#61
MassFrost

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lobi wrote...

MassFrost wrote...

I was happy in that it allowed me to have a reason to kill him immediately after. Does that count?

I really wanted the murder knife when he pointlessly killed that poor little tranquil guy. 


Oh believe me, I had wanted the murder knife on Anders only moments after encountering him for the first time. It was just unfortunate that I had to wait until the end of the game to actually get the opportunity.

Bearbeitet von MassFrost, 24 Mai 2011 - 02:07 .


#62
Rifneno

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

That would be because Anders act was the very definition of an act of terrorism. Note the city errupting into terror following the act and the non-combatant target. If he had been going after a military target actually holding the mages (i.e. Meredith) it would have been a different story.

But to answer your question in the OP, no I certainly wasn't happy about it. As he learned quite directly a few moments later. Its great that you think people who do 'nothing' deserve death. Me? I only kill them when they do something unforgivable.

Or try to kill me. But thats self defense! Honest. they fell on my dagger...and exploded.Eingefügtes Bild


1.  People have said the Boston Tea Party was terrorism too.  "Terrorism" basically means "a major political or military event I really disagreed with."
2.  The city "erupted in terror"?  There was chaos.  There was also chaos during the 77 New York blackout.  I guess the lightning that hit that substation is a terrorist.  Remember the Stanley Cup Riots?  NHL terrorism!
3.  He's going to save the mages by blowing up the building they live in?  O_o  Gotta be honest with you, I'm not sure that's a very good strategy.
4.  Elthina didn't deserve to die because she did nothing, she deserves to die because she was given one of the most important jobs in the nation and she neglected to do her duty.  Even if Anders didn't start anything, the Divine was planning war on Kirkwall anyway.  Because the mages were rebelling against the monster of a knight commander that Elthina is responsible for.  Elthina doing nothing is not the same as a random guy doing nothing.  Elthina doing nothing is like an armed police officer drinking coffee and reading the newspaper while someone is raped and murdered a few feet away.

*sigh*  I wish we could go a day without a 'debate' over the definition of terrorism.

#63
Cutlass Jack

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The definiton requires no debate in this instance. Anders act was purposely designed to start a war based on fear between both sides. Fear from both the templars (invoking Annullment) and fear from the Mages (fight or be annulled). It was not a military act. He did not inspire the mages to rise up. He used fear to do it.

I'd like to think no matter what your definiton of Terrorism is, destroying defenseless Tea is pretty far from it.

#64
rak72

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lobi wrote...

MassFrost wrote...

I was happy in that it allowed me to have a reason to kill him immediately after. Does that count?

I really wanted the murder knife when he pointlessly killed that poor little tranquil guy


This.  There should have been a way to allow us to turn him into the Templars there.  My hawke wasn't down with butchering a bunch of Templars in the chantry that were just trying to protect the city from a dagerous Apostate.  I would have turned him over & ransaced his clinic for the map.

Edit - Then let us have Cullen as a comanion instead of the Unibomber.  Mabe have Cullen with a copy of a map given to him by the warden.

Bearbeitet von rak72, 24 Mai 2011 - 01:58 .


#65
Cutlass Jack

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rak72 wrote...

lobi wrote...

MassFrost wrote...

I was happy in that it allowed me to have a reason to kill him immediately after. Does that count?

I really wanted the murder knife when he pointlessly killed that poor little tranquil guy


This.  There should have been a way to allow us to turn him into the Templars there.  My hawke wasn't down with butchering a bunch of Templars in the chantry that were just trying to protect the city from a dagerous Apostate.  I would have turned him over & ransaced his clinic for the map.


Well not sure I agree with this. Karl asked to die. Anders didn't want to do it, but felt he had to. It affected him deeply. As might be evidenced by the fact he planted that bomb at the same spot he had to do it.

But I really would have loved the chance to stop him (perhaps a little less murderknifey) at the end of his Act III quest. Where I saw what was coming long before the bomb ever went off. I can see why that couldn't be allowed (from a Dev standpoint) but I think it could have been handled much better.

#66
element eater

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terrorism in my mind is targeting innocents/civilians and to achieve your ends

Anders did just that to my mind he's a terrorist and nothing more, even if you say he isn't he's still a mass murderer. In addition he's an absolute moron when he goes on about being a martyr or some such cant really see any side condoning his actions mage or templar they' both follow andraste after all.

#67
White_Jedi

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By the time the game ended and I thought about how the situation played out,.......it felt like a band-aid to the problem not any real solution to the mage/templar problem, and it certainly wouldn't change how either the Tevinter magisters or the Quanari were going to deal with mages in their sphere of influence. It just showed how little control the chantry, even the Divine (White Divine) have over either the Templars/Circle of Magi. Everything that your character did can be made moot in a short period by some equally powerful character with an opposing point of view. No solution to the problems between the two "Sides" one way or another. The end kind of felt tacked on, like it was the best that could be done by the release deadline for the game. Meh...

#68
Vilegrim

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Sister Helen wrote...

I'm in the minority, on this thread. 

I was entirely devastated by the blowing up of the Chantry. Some actions cannot be justified -- you do not blow up churches, ever.  

Had Elthina survived, I think she would have forgiven Anders, as a tormented soul who had lost his connection to the Maker. (Maybe Justice was the cause of that loss...?)


no, she'd have stood by wringing her hands while the templars with tacit approval slaughtered everyone on suspicion (mage or not even a whif and out come the blades and the torture starts), smiling inside that her hands appear clean while the chantries power increases.  The Chantry is the big bad of the series, not even the blight comes close.   Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

Bearbeitet von Vilegrim, 24 Mai 2011 - 03:15 .


#69
Cutlass Jack

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Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 


It was not.

#70
Vilegrim

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 


It was not.


The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

#71
Addai

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I thought it was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. Helping mages? More like helping them get dead. He just validated every horror story told to every child in Thedas about mages.

#72
88mphSlayer

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if we had the option i would've put that bomb in the chantry, circle and templar HQ

then again if i had the option i would've gladly handed over the reigns of the city to the Qun

#73
Kuraiken

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Well, I'm very confused by all the different subjects and phrases that get thrown around.

Terrorism, for example, has the word "terror" in it. Originally, it meant to incite fear and terror in people (usually as means to an end). So when a person commits an act of terrorism, the idea is not to kill innocents, but to incite fear and terror so that the results based on those emotions will be to his preference.
From that point of view, the effectivness of terrorism is "terror", as it is the driving factor that makes the act of terrorism successful. That would mean that terrorism is focused on spreading fear - whether through action or word is irrelevant. It is a means to coerce a situation to unfold to that person's will. Which means that politicians who spread fear across the media, so that new expensive secutiry measures are bought by the state (and thus the taxpayers) is also a form of terrorism, for example.

There are a few analogies that mention one's "terrorists" are another one's "freedom fighters", especially referencing to the War of Independence. Concerning "freedom fighters" sadly deceased comedian George Carlin made a wonderful pun about the words we use in english.
It includes the famous line "Well, if crime fighters fight crime, and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part, do they?"

There is also a lot delivered about the idealistic idea of "freedom", which really is an ideal that moves ad infinitum. Which means, it's something infinite, unreachable. The very idea of freedom cannot be fullfilled. It's frightening how often ideals (beliefs! talk about war based on religion-beliefs, the "outdatet form of belief-wars") are used as justification or gloryfication. The War of Independence, for example, was not a war to ensure freedom, but (among other reasons) to end the "taxation without representation" that forced and coerced the trade relations of the colonies according to the will of the british crown. They did not wake up one night and decide: "It's time for freedom". Benjamin Franklin, one of the most important figures in the set up, originally was in favour of not ceceding and remained in Britain for quite a few years before his opinion changed and he was "thrown out" for some of the publications that Britain did not quite agree with.

In any sensible discussion about this event, perhaps it would be much more wise to consider what the status in general was (how have the mage-people-templar relations been the last centuries), how the situation at the time globally and locally can be defined, how the problem at hand can be examined in relation to how other nations deal with it (Tevinter Imperium) and from there, you make an educated guess about the results that might arise from this act, what the ramifications might be, and whether this act and the (implicated) following war can even lead to a conclusion, or whether the matter itself is, in fact, of such nature that it is impossible for potent mages who utilize blood magic to coexist peacefully without any kind of organization that governs it.
Especially interesting might be a crossexamination with both Tevinter and Orlais as the behaviour of Chevaliers and Tevinter Mages seem to have a common denominator in their abuse of magical and unmagical authority and power that goes unchecked.

In such fashion, maybe more interesting conclusions other than "you are wrong, and I am right" can be produced.

Although I must admit, having just left a certain seminar an hour ago that postulates according to the more recent ideas of modern models of communication and media that seems to suggest that there is not, and never will be, understanding of any kind between humans but only misunderstandings that can be negative (no understanding) or positive (the belief to have understood something, while, in fact, it cannot be understood as perception of reality is so subjective that there can never be a common denominator between two humans that can be verified.), the idea of a productive conversation in a world of miscommunication seems to be awfully unlikely.

On that note, should anyone of you ever wish to royally annoy the hell out of another person in a discussion, please refer to Luhmann's model of communication and take a look at Scheffer's more recent ideas about media. It's especially helpful if you know a teacher that you really, really want to drive into despair by telling him that it is impossible for him to ever make a student really understand what he means, because perception of reality is limited by the viewer to such a degree, that only a distortion remains and no understanding can ever be accomplished.

Now, after writing this huge wall of text, I consider delicious ice cream well earned.
Such a sunny day...ice in the sun...yes, will do that now. Note to self: banana and stracciatella.

#74
Beerfish

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Elthina takes WAY too much flack on these forums.

She was a bit naive and not worldly enough to perceive the threat to her. She was in a very tough spot however and was essentially in a no win scenario. When people claim "She did nothing at all and thus this is all her fault!" They really mean "She did not support the side I support thus it is her fault!"

She tried to broker a peace between the two sides, she did have meetings between the two sides, she did reject Alricks tranquil solution (as did Meredith).

She stopped the Divine, through her agent 'Nightingale' from marching in a with force to purge Kirkwall.

She was in no different a position than any Hawke that has not immediately leaped to one side or another. There is a Qunari problem, there is a mage problem, there is a templar problem. If she goes totally in favour of mages she goes against some tenants of the Chantry and the Templars. If she goes totally against the mages she knows innocent mages will be disposed of.

She made mistakes and didn't recognize the danger to herself but she certainly tried to diffuse things as best she could.

#75
GavrielKay

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Beerfish wrote...

She made mistakes and didn't recognize the danger to herself but she certainly tried to diffuse things as best she could.


She appointed a woman who had experienced a personal tragedy so great that she could never be expected to behave in a rational fashion around mages.  You don't watch your sister become an abomination and kill your family and then your village and just shrug it off.  Meredith should never have been in any position of power over mages. 

If Elthina promoted Meredith to Knight Commander because this childhood tragedy would ensure her vigilance then she exemplifies the worst of the dogma of the Chantry.  And if she did it out of ignorance or apathy then she is completely incompetent and can't be trusted to perform her duties.

Either way, Elthina directly helped to create the situation in Kirkwall.  Her pathetic efforts to create a compromise between a zealot that she put in power and a First Enchanter who turns out to have a shady side were obviously doomed and she was in a position to know this.

Edit:  spelling

Bearbeitet von GavrielKay, 24 Mai 2011 - 07:05 .