1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

You keep saying that but completely ignore the fact that Meredith also went Fruit-Loop just afterwords and it's her and the Champion that people clearly remember (Cassandra asks about the Champion NOT Anders) and not Anders per se....so I think you are overstating your case just a little.

-Polaris

Cassandra is looking for someone to help her in a plan to stop the war.  She's unlikely to consider Anders - who, from the tone of voice when she mentions him, she clearly despises - as a realistic prospect.  Particularly if he's dead.

The Mages remember Kirkwall for Meredith's crime.  This is not surprising, since it was against their own.  I really doubt the rest of the world looks at events in the same light.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

How mages could have gotten freedom- well, that begs the question that mages should be allowed total autonomy.  How do you regulate a nuclear bomb when that bomb is a person?  

If that analogy was remotely correct, the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain would have lead to the destruction of Thedas because of the free mages living in their respective societies. However, we see this isn't the case.

Missing the point.

We don't know anything about most of those societies, but for the ones we do, they have ways of controlling the power of mages, too.  The fact that different societies do this differently doesn't change the bare fact of what a mage is and can do.  So, constantly bringing them up is not relevant.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

We don't know anything about most of those societies, but for the ones we do, they have ways of controlling the power of mages, too.  The fact that different societies do this differently doesn't change the bare fact of what a mage is and can do.  So, constantly bringing them up is not relevant.

I don't remember seeing much control over the Dalish keepers.  Rather, they are raised to believe they have important responsibilities and need to use their abilities for the good of the clan.  Even Zathrian, who cast a curse on humans to create the werewolves isn't an out of control blood mage abomination.  Constantly bringing up that mages are powerful doesn't further the debate either.  There are ways of dealing with mages that don't involve death, doom and destruction OR oppression.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Missing the point.

You might want to stop with the theatrical writing if you want your point to get across and taken seriously.

Addai67 wrote...

We don't know anything about most of those societies, but for the ones we do, they have ways of controlling the power of mages, too. 

Gaider went on record as saying the Chasind and the Rivanni had free mages that weren't controlled, he added that they deal with abominations that arise - which is the same information we get from Merrill about the People and what happens if an elven mage turns into an abomination. Also, we know the Avvar and the Chasind are very similar, and we've seen the Dalish clans with two different protagonists.

Addai67 wrote...

The fact that different societies do this differently doesn't change the bare fact of what a mage is and can do.  So, constantly bringing them up is not relevant.

Bringing them up addresses that not everyone shares the same attitudes and views as the Andrastian Chantry.

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...
I don't remember seeing much control over the Dalish keepers.  Rather, they are raised to believe they have important responsibilities and need to use their abilities for the good of the clan.  Even Zathrian, who cast a curse on humans to create the werewolves isn't an out of control blood mage abomination.  Constantly bringing up that mages are powerful doesn't further the debate either.  There are ways of dealing with mages that don't involve death, doom and destruction OR oppression.

Keepers are very controlled.  The fact that there can be only one and an apprentice, that their lore is kept secret and that they have to train rigorously are all control mechanisms.  I certainly wouldn't be bringing Zathrian up as a model for how well the Dalish system works.

We seem to agree that this discussion is pointless.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm probably the sole person who would go so far to say that I was "happy" over Anders' decision in Act III. My only objection to it is how it might damage him, personally... which is heavily, and definitely. He basically sold out his own soul in exchange for a small chance for freedom for his people, and, alive or dead, I mourn him. I wish it had not come to that.

Nevertheless, my thoughts upon seeing the chantry go up were:
1. Bold move
2. I wouldn't want to get blamed for this, or have it on my conscience, so I'm happy you kept me out of it.
3. Crap. Now, which is better for mage freedom, killing you or letting you live? I want to keep you around, but killing you gives me even more plausible deniability, plus makes me seem like an impartial problem-solver who doesn't pick sides.

Whatever my Hawke does with the knife, she walks off humming.

"Do you hear the people sing, singing the songs of angry men?
It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again.
When the beating of your heart echoes the beating of a drum,
there is a life about to start when tomorrow comes."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 juin 2011 - 11:50 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I don't remember seeing much control over the Dalish keepers.  Rather, they are raised to believe they have important responsibilities and need to use their abilities for the good of the clan.  Even Zathrian, who cast a curse on humans to create the werewolves isn't an out of control blood mage abomination.  Constantly bringing up that mages are powerful doesn't further the debate either.  There are ways of dealing with mages that don't involve death, doom and destruction OR oppression.

Keepers are very controlled.  The fact that there can be only one and an apprentice, that their lore is kept secret and that they have to train rigorously are all control mechanisms.  I certainly wouldn't be bringing Zathrian up as a model for how well the Dalish system works.

We seem to agree that this discussion is pointless.

That isn't true.  We know that mages exist in the Dalish outside the Keeper and First.  For example Anerien was a mage and a member of Zathrien's clan (full adult member too or he would not be permitted to wear the Vasaline).  If you actually fight Zathrien's clan, you find out that the Halla Herder and Shopkeeper are mages as well.  Furthermore Lenanya specifically tells you that she had to keep against many to become Zatherien's first and it was not a forgone conclusion, ergo there was more than one mage at least then in the clan.

So the idea that all Dalish clans are limited to 2 mages is BUNK.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

I find the anti-religious bias in the discussion pretty distracting.  I don't think the Chantry is a good or evil thing.  But if you claim to be interested in ending tyranny, consider that it's pretty hypocritical to go about changing their minds using magical explosives.[/quote]

Except we're not judging them for being religious, we're judging them for their actions.  Things like oppression and mass murder.  The religious bit is simply acknowledging an obvious truth that the devout religious belief is all but impossible to change with a reasoned argument because everything can be dismissed by "it's my god's will."  The fact the Chantry's crimes have gone on for a millennium proves this.to be true for them as well.

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

We've actually fought Qunari.  They did pretty well for being one ship full of guys, some of which drowned, who were stranded without resources for years.  And, they have mages too.

So I'm inclined to believe Fenris could have a point.  I'm at least not going to dismiss what he says outright.[/quote]

The qunari had the element of surprise. They were using a thoroughly planned out and coordinated attack against a completely unsuspecting target. They would have to be a level of incompetent that stands out even in Kirkwall to be losing the battle we see. You'll note that when Hawke finishes with the Arishok, Meredith (who went for reinforcements) arrives a moment later. In other words, the cavalry had arrived to take care of the Arishok.

I'm not outright dismissing it, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. As it should be taken. He's a biased party offering no how or even why for his extremely suspect claim.

[quote]I'm getting pretty tired of your incoherent and belligerent rants.

Ditto for the rest of this tirade.  Nothing worth responding to.[/quote]

I treat people how they treat others. I certainly make mistakes and snap at people undeserving in a heated debate, and I do try to apologize afterwards. This is not one of those times. You say things like "talking to you two is like banging my head against a wall" and expect to be treated with respect? This is just one more in a long line of hypocrisy and self-superiority on your part.

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

You can find the anti-religion bias distracting all you want, but the Act 3 story line is Chantry/Templars vs. Mages.  It's a bit hard to take sides without considering the religion angle.  I am not going to toe the "we must respect religion" line when religion is being used in game to oppress a group of people who are born different.
[/quote]

It's funny, I think the pro-Chantry group plays the religion card as much or even more than the pro-mage group. Either accusing us of only hating the Chantry because we associate it with our real life anti-religious bias, or because they're actually the ones associating it with real life religious organizations and are outraged at people attacking the Chantry that they view in the same light as the peaceful little church down the street that's NOT committing genocide.

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

I simply won't condone using terrorism to bring this about.  It's counter-productive, apart from everything else. Who sympathizes with terrorists?[/quote]

As "terrorism" is an eye of the beholder kind of thing, lots of people. The Boston Tea Party was called terrorism by many British of its time. It actually turned many American sympathizers over there against us. How many Americans today do you know that don't view that "terrorism" in a positive light?

[quote]If mages can't police themselves, starting with violent abominations, then they don't deserve freedom.[/quote]

Remind me how that same line can't be said of the Chantry?

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

Who themselves are pathetic.  See Ostagar.[/quote]

I know, right? How could a handful of mages not turn the tide of a battle against a darkspawn horde that the king "knew there would be no victory against" even before half of the army left them out to dry? Sissies.

[quote]How do you regulate a nuclear bomb when that bomb is a person?[/quote]

I don't know. How do you make a nuclear bomb that's considered extremely powerful when it kills 70 people? Detonate it over the ocean or something? Wait, does the nuclear weapon in question have "Mattel" written in big pink letters on the side? Barbie's First Weapons-Grade Plutonium! Kawaii!

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

You think they're better off dead?
[/quote]

A moot point since they don't wind up dead.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

...I really do wonder how the mages expect to win. And how they're gonna keep their freedom if they win it.[/quote]

If the general populace really does force them to seize power just to break free of Chantry tyranny, I would find it extremely difficult to sympathize with the populace.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

Dieing for freedom may be a noble ideal, but is forcing others to do so?
[/quote]

It has been in every war to stop slavery and oppression ever fought, so...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

The exact reason I will never look upon the Chantry boom favorably. He didn't give the Kirkwall mages a choice in the matter.
[/quote]

Remember when Lincoln polled every single slave in the US? Me neither.

[quote]CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm probably the sole person who would go so far to say that I was "happy" over Anders' decision in Act III. My only objection to it is how it might damage him, personally... which is heavily, and definitely. He basically sold out his own soul in exchange for a small chance for freedom for his people, and, alive or dead, I mourn him. I wish it had not come to that. [/quote]

Believe me, you're not.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Ah nevermind rant away.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 juin 2011 - 02:37 .

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

I love when people compare freeing slaves to freeing mages.

Unlike freeing mages the slaves were freed at the END of the war.  The slaves freed during the war weren't part of the North anyway and they actually had no authority to free those slaves. It was a tatical decision. 

But don't let history get in the way of your arguement.

I was unaware that America was the only country to ever have slaves, or that the American Civil War was the only battle ever fought to free slaves.  Thank you for enlightening me.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I don't remember seeing much control over the Dalish keepers.  Rather, they are raised to believe they have important responsibilities and need to use their abilities for the good of the clan.  Even Zathrian, who cast a curse on humans to create the werewolves isn't an out of control blood mage abomination.  Constantly bringing up that mages are powerful doesn't further the debate either.  There are ways of dealing with mages that don't involve death, doom and destruction OR oppression.

Keepers are very controlled.  The fact that there can be only one and an apprentice, that their lore is kept secret and that they have to train rigorously are all control mechanisms.  I certainly wouldn't be bringing Zathrian up as a model for how well the Dalish system works.

We seem to agree that this discussion is pointless.

GavrielKay has a point. Aren't you forgetting about the fact that Aneirin the Healer was part of Zathrian's clan? And Ariane mentions an elven mage who ran away to became a member of her clan, and said it's happened before.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I love when people compare freeing slaves to freeing mages.

Unlike freeing mages the slaves were freed at the END of the war.  The slaves freed during the war weren't part of the North anyway and they actually had no authority to free those slaves. It was a tatical decision. 

But don't let history get in the way of your arguement.

I was unaware that America was the only country to ever have slaves, or that the American Civil War was the only battle ever fought to free slaves.  Thank you for enlightening me.

 

Oh don't try to be smug when you specifically brought up LINCOLN. 

Nice try. 

I was responding within the context you gave. 

But go ahead and rant away. 

[Addai]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Really? What happened, exactly? There are so many codex entries and I can't begin to sift through them all.

Though it wouldn't surprise me. It's not really in the Chantry's best interest to reform, is it?

This is a matter of one arm of the Chantry disagreeing with the other.  Tevinter is Andrastian, too, remember?

Without their iron grip on magic, much of their power would diminish. Magic shouldn't be treated as something that's only dangerous and needs to be locked away, but a very valuable resource that could easily as dangerous if not handled properly. Anders is one example of that - his magic alone kept Darktown from becoming a mass grave, and they rallied around him in response.

Sorry, but I have to laugh at this.  Anders is Exhibit A why mages should be locked up and, if they're even suspected of being abominations or blood mages, killed outright before they kill many others.  At least, that is what people are going to say after the bomb.  A lot of people.  And those people have a very good point.

[IanPolaris]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...



It was....by Tevinter.  The Divine promptly threatened (and later made good on that threat) an Exalted March in response.  Since then the Chantry (look at Lelianna in "Faith" in DA2) has no interest and no desire to reform their attitude towards magic and mages at all.

-Polaris

Really? What happened, exactly? There are so many codex entries and I can't begin to sift through them all.

Though it wouldn't surprise me. It's not really in the Chantry's best interest to reform, is it? Without their iron grip on magic, much of their power would diminish. Magic shouldn't be treated as something that's only dangerous and needs to be locked away, but a very valuable resource that could easily as dangerous if not handled properly. Anders is one example of that - his magic alone kept Darktown from becoming a mass grave, and they rallied around him in response.

I'd have to look up the exact date, but I think it was sometime in the second or third age, that the Grand Cleric of Minrathus "interpreted" the chant, "Magic should be used to serve man and not rule over him" as a commandment that magic should always used for the greater good AND that mind-control magic (not blood magic per se) is strictly forbidden.  That is, Minrathus claimed there was no reason within the Chant why mages shouldn't participate in society and have political power like anyone else provided they didn't use mind control magic and their magic was always used for the greater good.

The Divine in Val Royaleux (sp) took exception to this, and the split became official (complete with several failed exalted marches) a few decades thereafter.

Honestly, without endorsing Tevinter or Tevinter soceity whatsoever, the Tevinter read of the Chant of Light IS the more reasonable read.

-Polaris

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

GavrielKay has a point. Aren't you forgetting about the fact that Aneirin the Healer was part of Zathrian's clan? And Ariane mentions an elven mage who ran away to became a member of her clan, and said it's happened before.

Aneirin was on his own, deep in the forest.  Anyway what's the point?

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Sorry, but I have to laugh at this.  Anders is Exhibit A why mages should be locked up and, if they're even suspected of being abominations or blood mages, killed outright before they kill many others.  At least, that is what people are going to say after the bomb.  A lot of people.  And those people have a very good point.

Let's lock up everyone that had a course in High School chemstry.  It's exactly the same logic.  I promise you that a highschool Chem text, Diesel Oil, and Ammonium Nitrate (a common fertizer available in most hardware stores) anyone can do as much damage as Anders did.  Just ask Timothy McVeigh.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GavrielKay has a point. Aren't you forgetting about the fact that Aneirin the Healer was part of Zathrian's clan? And Ariane mentions an elven mage who ran away to became a member of her clan, and said it's happened before.

Aneirin was on his own, deep in the forest.  Anyway what's the point?

He was deep in the forest by choice as the Dalish Elves by Sarel's campfire make clear.  Aneirin is a full member of the tribe (hence the Vasaline on his face) and is a full and honored member of the tribe (if the blood writing didn't make that clear, the elves by Sarel's camp do).  The point is that the Dalish don't control mages nearly as strictly as you tried to claim.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

Well, it's more like the connection society makes between the "underlying cause" of the action and potential repeats.

You know, like how the media blamed violent video games and music after school shootings like Columbine or Virginia Tech. Except in the case of Anders they'd blame the fact mages can and often do fall prey to fade demons (and spirits, I doubt they'd split such hairs given the situation) and unlike the real life example I posed, they would have a point.  That the counter-argument regarding the power Templars have over mages, and that power corrupts would be heard isnt' as consequential simply because of brutal mathematics.  There are far more mundanes who are at best wary of mages - at worst, reviling them - than there are mages who struggle under the oppression of the Templars.

The "Anders is just another mage turned abomintion" narrative would have legs in Thedas. There is no denying it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, it's more like the connection society makes between the "underlying cause" of the action and potential repeats.

You know, like how the media blamed violent video games and music after school shootings like Columbine or Virginia Tech. Except in the case of Anders they'd blame the fact mages can and often do fall prey to fade demons (and spirits, I doubt they'd split such hairs given the situation) and unlike the real life example I posed, they would have a point.

The "Anders is just another mage turned abomintion" narrative would have legs in Thedas. There is no denying it.

I'll deny it.  It was not common knowledge that Anders was an abomination (and it's not clear that he was technically an abomination).  Also what Meredith did immediately afterwords was far worse and it's not clear at all that mages will all become persona non-grata.

If that were so, then declare, "Templars win" game over, and shut down the franchise.  Somehow I don't think it will work that way.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

If that were so, then declare, "Templars win" game over, and shut down the franchise.  Somehow I don't think it will work that way.

Oh I think given the status quo as we've been presented, I think it is game over for the mages.  Or it would be.

However I do not believe that status quo will remain static.  You know, the whole Flemeth/Morrigan "change is coming" stuff, plus Sandal's rantings.  

But that's speculative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juin 2011 - 03:42 .

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
He was deep in the forest by choice as the Dalish Elves by Sarel's campfire make clear.  Aneirin is a full member of the tribe (hence the Vasaline on his face) and is a full and honored member of the tribe (if the blood writing didn't make that clear, the elves by Sarel's camp do).  The point is that the Dalish don't control mages nearly as strictly as you tried to claim.

-Polaris

It doesn't mean they don't have controls on magic at all.  He's not with the tribe in DA2, so I don't know how you can so definitively say that he was a member of the Sabrae clan.

But this is a pointless angle of discussion.  No one's saying magic should be completely unregulated (I thnk), and I'm not saying the Circle system as it exists now is justified.  So what exactly are we arguing about?

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Let's lock up everyone that had a course in High School chemstry.  It's exactly the same logic.  I promise you that a highschool Chem text, Diesel Oil, and Ammonium Nitrate (a common fertizer available in most hardware stores) anyone can do as much damage as Anders did.  Just ask Timothy McVeigh.

-Polaris

No one in their society can do that much damage, however.

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If that were so, then declare, "Templars win" game over, and shut down the franchise.  Somehow I don't think it will work that way.

Oh I think given the status quo as we've been presented, I think it is game over for the mages.  Or it would be.

However I do not believe that status quo will remain static.  You know, the whole Flemeth/Morrigan "change is coming" stuff, plus Sandal's rantings.  

But that's speculative.

I think you aren't paying attention then.  Ferelden either has or is about to go "Church of England" on the Chantry over magic, and you now have a vibrant counter-example to Anders.  Also the nobility in their own self interests have a lot of reasons to at least consider cooperating with the mages.

So you are wrong.  It is FAR from game over for the mages.  You just want to believe otherwise.

-Polaris