1207 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Let's lock up everyone that had a course in High School chemstry.  It's exactly the same logic.  I promise you that a highschool Chem text, Diesel Oil, and Ammonium Nitrate (a common fertizer available in most hardware stores) anyone can do as much damage as Anders did.  Just ask Timothy McVeigh.

-Polaris

No one in their society can do that much damage, however.

That's not really true either.  One trained warrior that isn't afraid to do, can probably do at least as much raw death anyway.  The Qunari Gatlock and Saar Gamock can easily do the same amounts of damage, and no one views the Qunari as magical. 

In short you are repeating a Chantry excuse and more and more people realize it's a chantry excuse.  Also don't forget that before his act of terrorism, Anders built up a huge pool of goodwill in the lower classes (esp Darktown) and that won't go away just because some pompous chantry sisters got toasted.  In private I expect a fair number of Darktowners would actually applaud seeing the Grand CLeric and the Chantry blown up into little bitsies.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Sorry, but I have to laugh at this.  Anders is Exhibit A why mages should be locked up and, if they're even suspected of being abominations or blood mages, killed outright before they kill many others.  At least, that is what people are going to say after the bomb.  A lot of people.  And those people have a very good point.

The people of Darktown would beg to differ, seeing as most of them would be dead without the magical healing Anders is providing. And you're missing my point entirely.

/nitpick.  I didn't write the part you quoted.  Otherwise I agree with you.

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's not really true either.  One trained warrior that isn't afraid to do, can probably do at least as much raw death anyway.  The Qunari Gatlock and Saar Gamock can easily do the same amounts of damage, and no one views the Qunari as magical. 

No one much likes the Qunari, either.    However I think the salient point is that mages can't be disarmed.  Their massive power is inherent.

In short you are repeating a Chantry excuse and more and more people realize it's a chantry excuse.  Also don't forget that before his act of terrorism, Anders built up a huge pool of goodwill in the lower classes (esp Darktown) and that won't go away just because some pompous chantry sisters got toasted.  In private I expect a fair number of Darktowners would actually applaud seeing the Grand CLeric and the Chantry blown up into little bitsies.

-Polaris

Who are these "more and more people"?

Do you think most of Kirkwall and anyone outside is going to give a crap about a few people in Darktown whom Anders healed, especially since most of those same people are probably going to end up dead in his war?  Be realistic.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juin 2011 - 03:57 .

[Sammy0721]

There is nothing more satisfying than rolling with a Meredith loyal templar and killing Anders at the Gallows. To be defined as a terrorist (you need to be on the losing side) because history is written by the victors. Anders as a character is fairly annoying because he is too radical i.e. close minded ... ironically, the "noble" Arishok and the slithery "Petrice" are much richer and interesting characters who both disappear after Act 2. I don't think the Chantry is blind to the abuses of the templars (Dorothea aka the Divine and her army of neutral seekers Cassandra and Leilana). I suspect that Kirkwall was the perfect storm ... Starkhaven Circle had already burn down, the Fereldan Circle was a Grey Warden away from annullment if pro-mage (or actually annulled) ... and Kirkwall had the strongest Templar army not in Or

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's not really true either.  One trained warrior that isn't afraid to do, can probably do at least as much raw death anyway.  The Qunari Gatlock and Saar Gamock can easily do the same amounts of damage, and no one views the Qunari as magical. 

No one much likes the Qunari, either.    However I think the salient point is that mages can't be disarmed.  Their massive power is inherent.

You can't disarm a trained warrior either.  A trained martial artist is almost as deadly unarmed or with improvised weapons as with a sword or other weapon.  Being a killer is a matter of attitude not hardware.  In short, I don't buy the apologia.

In short you are repeating a Chantry excuse and more and more people realize it's a chantry excuse.  Also don't forget that before his act of terrorism, Anders built up a huge pool of goodwill in the lower classes (esp Darktown) and that won't go away just because some pompous chantry sisters got toasted.  In private I expect a fair number of Darktowners would actually applaud seeing the Grand CLeric and the Chantry blown up into little bitsies.

-Polaris

Who are these "more and more people"?

Do you think most of Kirkwall and anyone outside is going to give a crap about a few people in Darktown whom Anders healed, especially since most of those same people are probably going to end up dead in his war?  Be realistic.

Actually in DAO, DAA, and now DA2, you see a very noticable softening of the attitude towards mages both by the common man and by the nobility.  Even Cullen mentions it bitterly that mages in Kirkwall got support from the common people that was UNPRECEDENTED just a few years prior.  Alistair is openly breaking with the Chantry over magic and retains his popularity with both the nobility and common man.

Why?  People tend to be afraid of magic but don't instrinsically hate mages (and those that do are almost always the direct result of Chantry programming such as Keli in DAO).  That means that nobles have room to negotiate a deal with the rebel mages and NOT cause a common revolt...and control over magic as a resource is simply too important for nobles not to try to gain some control if at all feasiable (as now it is).

-Polaris

[Nightdragon8]

yea it was a big WTF moment in the game, first time it happened I was, Jaw droping, I knew something was up because of the ingrediants. The whole gathering stuff was too close to real life stuff.

First game I let him live to "help clean up" but by that time I was feeling like Varic "I'm tired of Mages and Templars" And when Isabela asked if I wanted to go with her I was serious... Sister dead mother dead... yea don't really need this town anymore. (I wish it was an real option to leave right there and then)

[IanPolaris]

As for why attitudes towards mages seem to be mellowing, in Kirkwall a large part of it is Meredith's iron fisted incompetance. It's hard for John Q Noble or Joe Commoner to worry about the hypothetical danger of "mages" when the Templars are really, obviously, and blatently stomping all over any semblance of civil and secular govt in Kirkwall. As for the rest of Thedas, I think much of it is simply the passage of time. Instead of being fearful of a new evil Tevinter Empire, Tevinter now seems to be a distant great evil in the distant past that really isn't relevant anymore....and that makes Chantry proclaimations against the evils of Tevinter and magic less and less effective.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GavrielKay has a point. Aren't you forgetting about the fact that Aneirin the Healer was part of Zathrian's clan? And Ariane mentions an elven mage who ran away to became a member of her clan, and said it's happened before.

Aneirin was on his own, deep in the forest.  Anyway what's the point?

The man wearing blood writing on his face, wearing Dalish attire, is and was acknowledged as a member of Zathrian's clan (although it's Lanaya's clan now). Aneirin was a mage. There's no stipulation that there can only be two mages to one clan; even Ariane has made mention of elven mages escaping the Circles of Magi to the Dalish clans.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

You can't disarm a trained warrior either.  A trained martial artist is almost as deadly unarmed or with improvised weapons as with a sword or other weapon.  Being a killer is a matter of attitude not hardware.  In short, I don't buy the apologia.

It's simply a fact.  A trained martial artist can't cause a massive explosion in the middle of a city.    They also can't control minds.  People are paranoid of mages, but they have good reasons to be.

Actually in DAO, DAA, and now DA2, you see a very noticable softening of the attitude towards mages both by the common man and by the nobility.  Even Cullen mentions it bitterly that mages in Kirkwall got support from the common people that was UNPRECEDENTED just a few years prior.  Alistair is openly breaking with the Chantry over magic and retains his popularity with both the nobility and common man.

I didn't notice this.  In fact Kirkwall would be the last place I'd expect to see it, with all the insane mages running around.  But even if I assume you're right, it's goodwill which Anders almost certainly erased in one fell stroke.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juin 2011 - 04:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
He was deep in the forest by choice as the Dalish Elves by Sarel's campfire make clear. Aneirin is a full member of the tribe (hence the Vasaline on his face) and is a full and honored member of the tribe (if the blood writing didn't make that clear, the elves by Sarel's camp do). The point is that the Dalish don't control mages nearly as strictly as you tried to claim.

-Polaris

It doesn't mean they don't have controls on magic at all. He's not with the tribe in DA2, so I don't know how you can so definitively say that he was a member of the Sabrae clan.

Marethari's clan isn't the same as Zathrian's clan, and Aneirin was a member of Zathrian's clan (which can become Lanaya's clan once he's killed or after the curse is broken). We never see Zathrian's clan in DA2.

Addai67 wrote...

But this is a pointless angle of discussion. No one's saying magic should be completely unregulated (I thnk), and I'm not saying the Circle system as it exists now is justified. So what exactly are we arguing about?

In my opinion, the Chantry controlled Circles aren't jusitifed when templars have the authority to torture mages and steal their humanity from them, and the legal right to commit genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children in the Circle of Magi for an act no Circle mage is responsible for.

[LobselVith8]

Sammy0721 wrote...

There is nothing more satisfying than rolling with a Meredith loyal templar and killing Anders at the Gallows. To be defined as a terrorist (you need to be on the losing side) because history is written by the victors.

So you view Anders as a terrorist, but side with Meredith to commit genocide against the mages who aren't guilty of the act Anders alone is responsible for? And no, you don't need to be on the losing side of history for people to call you a terrorist.

Sammy0721 wrote...

Anders as a character is fairly annoying because he is too radical i.e. close minded ... ironically, the "noble" Arishok and the slithery "Petrice" are much richer and interesting characters who both disappear after Act 2. I don't think the Chantry is blind to the abuses of the templars (Dorothea aka the Divine and her army of neutral seekers Cassandra and Leilana).

I respectfully disagree. Leliana seemed very ignorant of what was actually going on in Kirkwall in Act III's Faith.

Sammy0721 wrote...

I suspect that Kirkwall was the perfect storm ... Starkhaven Circle had already burn down, the Fereldan Circle was a Grey Warden away from annullment if pro-mage (or actually annulled) ... and Kirkwall had the strongest Templar army not in Or

The nation of Ferelden can be rescued by The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden, who can irrevocably change several societies and become a high noble as the new Arl of Amaranthine, ending the life of the Architect, the Mother, and their horde of darkspawn to save the arling from devastation. The counterpoint to Anders is the Hero of Ferelden from the Magi background, as he's seen as "blessed by the Maker" and can save the lives of people within the nation several times. In addition, King Alistair (with or without Queen Anora) is protecting apostates from the templars and still arguing for the Magi boon several years later.

In addition, Cullen notes that the people in Kirkwall are becoming more pro-mage and more anti-templar. Even Ferelden refugees are willing to fight and kill to protect Anders. If Hawke is a mage who become the Champion of Kirkwall, has his existance impacted the common people? I noticed that Cassandra accused Hawke of spreading subversion against the Chantry - was this regarding the mages who emancipated themselves from the Chantry and its Order of Templars, or did she mean that the civilians weren't automatically siding with the templars anymore because of stories about the Champion, and his decision to protect the mages against an insane Knight-Commander turned dictator?

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari's clan isn't the same as Zathrian's clan, and Aneirin was a member of Zathrian's clan (which can become Lanaya's clan once he's killed or after the curse is broken). We never see Zathrian's clan in DA2.

Oh right, I always forget.  I don't see the point in this angle of the discussion though, as I've said now numerous times.

In my opinion, the Chantry controlled Circles aren't jusitifed when templars have the authority to torture mages and steal their humanity from them, and the legal right to commit genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children in the Circle of Magi for an act no Circle mage is responsible for.

If people are going to object to use of the term terrorism, the term genocide shouldn't be used, either.  Mages aren't an ethnic group, and they aren't killed simply for being mages, but for being in a Circle which is deemed irretrievably corrrupted to the point that it poses a danger to innocent people outside it.  [/endless circle of arguments]

Anyway we're not discussing Meredith's actions after the bomb, rather Anders' actions, and as I said, he gave the templars the best argument for mage oppression they've had since the magisters were murdering people to power their spells.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Anyway we're not discussing Meredith's actions after the bomb, rather Anders' actions, and as I said, he gave the templars the best argument for mage oppression they've had since the magisters were murdering people to power their spells.

The thing is they are inextricably linked including the innanity that has Meredith condemn an entire group of people to deeth for something that someone else (Anders) did, and the guilty party has surrendered and is right in front of her.  That makes Meredith's actions right afterwards very much part of the discussion and does a lot to mitigate any anti-mage sentiment that Anders may have generated.

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anyway we're not discussing Meredith's actions after the bomb, rather Anders' actions, and as I said, he gave the templars the best argument for mage oppression they've had since the magisters were murdering people to power their spells.

The thing is they are inextricably linked including the innanity that has Meredith condemn an entire group of people to deeth for something that someone else (Anders) did, and the guilty party has surrendered and is right in front of her.  That makes Meredith's actions right afterwards very much part of the discussion and does a lot to mitigate any anti-mage sentiment that Anders may have generated.

-Polaris

My mama always told me, two wrongs don't make a right.  I don't see anyone but other mages even being surprised, let alone outraged, that the Circle gets annulled.  By your logic we also have to add Orsino to the mix.

Although I do agree generally, which is why my canon ending will be killing Anders and declining Meredith's offer to reduce Kirkwall's Circle to ashes. Of course, some here have said they think they would be better off dead.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juin 2011 - 04:50 .

[IanPolaris]

Only in fairy tales do "two wrongs never make a right". In fact in the real world, how one responds to an injustice or even crime can do a lot to determine how that injustice or crime is perceived. In actual life,therefore, a second wrong can indeed make the first a "right" or at least go a long way to mitigate/justify the first wrong in the minds of many outsiders.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

I never got the Exiled Prince DLC, but I seem to recall reading on this forum that Elthina is warned to leave Kirkwall because the Divine might call an Exalted March? If that is correct, then even if Elthina has decided to remain and I dunno, keep pretending to be a voice of reason, shouldn't she have sent away any non-essential people from the Chantry? She would have to be pretty cold to have a Chantry full of orphans knowing that the city could come under attack in the near future. If it's possible for Hawke to know about all this, then it's possible for Anders to know...

If I'm wrong about the DLC then apologies... but if I'm right, perhaps Anders actually knew that casualties (other than his target Elthina) would be at a minimum? As far as the crazy explosion, again, just throwing random thoughts out there... it certainly looks pretty, but it's all supposed to be Varric's recollection of events to Cassandra. It might not actually have been as city wrecking as it looked. Since there is no real epilogue to address it, the player could decide to believe that it was actually a relatively limited explosion that Anders knew would kill only Elthina and a few hard core mothers that refused to leave her side.

With as little actual information as the player is given, does anyone think it's a possibility that Anders was somewhat more circumspect than it seems at first glance?

I'm not suggesting that he wasn't trying to kill Elthina and make a statement, but I do wonder about the ridiculous explosion and Elthina keeping the Chantry full of people under the circumstances.

[ReiSilver]

I was joking with a friend of mine that my Dalish Warden would love the destruction of the Chantry and would have high fived Anders. He's got a chip on his shoulder about the whole exalted march on the Dales, the lies about Dalish religion and the alienage elves being forced to convert to the Chantry religion. That and he ended up doing the Ashes quest before the camp attack so he took the whole vision of Tamlen thing that pretty badly.... there was much chanting of "LIES"

[Ryzaki]

I have to admit the mage ending is kind of sad when you're an optimized warrior cutting down those pathetic mages like tissue paper.

At least the demons give me a decent fight.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

I have to admit the mage ending is kind of sad when you're an optimized warrior cutting down those pathetic mages like tissue paper.

The actual game play puts a bit of a lie to how dangerous the mages are.  They should work on the balance a bit more to keep from breaking immersion that way.

[Addai]

I don't see how Anders would anticipate a world war from a very minor explosion. My guess is, it's as big as Varric described. As far as the explosion being "preventive," you could as easily make the argument that siding with the templars is to stave off an Exalted March- I have, in fact, made that argument. Besides the fact that Anders doesn't want compromise- he doesn't want a limited engagement- he wants a war.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Only in fairy tales do "two wrongs never make a right". In fact in the real world, how one responds to an injustice or even crime can do a lot to determine how that injustice or crime is perceived. In actual life,therefore, a second wrong can indeed make the first a "right" or at least go a long way to mitigate/justify the first wrong in the minds of many outsiders.

-Polaris

Well this is a fairy tale, and I say a pox on both their houses.  Meredith and Anders can both rot in whatever corner of the Fade they end up in.

[Corto81]

How can anyone be happy?

It's akin to the Twin Towers.
You just don't massacre hundreds and thousands of civilians because of your political agenda (even if Anders - which IMO he wasn't, especially after the "martyr remembered in history" comment).

My biggest problem with the scene is that I hated the whiny wimp he turned into after Awakening, and I couldn't stand the guy.
Yet no matter what I did, I couldn't ditch him and regardless of the fact I never talked to him apart from his quests, or never had him in the party otherwise, apparently my Hawke's been bros with him for 7 years.

Awesome.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. Leliana seemed very ignorant of what was actually going on in Kirkwall in Act III's Faith.

She seemed to know pretty well IMO.  She's just another Chantry ****.  I'm glad she can come back from the dead, means I'll be able to keep killing her.

People talk about them ruining DAA's Anders and Justice in DA2...  Leliana got it worse than anyone.  I loved DAO Leliana.  10 seconds after seeing her in DA2, I'm desperately looking for the "initiate combat" option on the dialogue wheel.

[CalJones]

It's not quite up there with the Twin Towers - thousands died in that atrocity. The chantry is much smaller and the loss of life would have been nowhere near that scale. Not that I am condoning it. Being an older Englishwoman, the IRA "troubles" were always onthe news when I was growing up so I've come to see terrorism on any scale as wrong. However, you can't compare what Anders did to 9/11.

As for Anders, a lot of people enjoy his character development and like having him in party or as a romance option. You didn't, which is fair enough. It's all down to personal preference. But for those that liked Anders as a party member and/or romance, the Chantry bomb added a delicious bitter-sweet twist. Whether you view this as dramatic or melodramatic is, again, a matter of personal perspective.