1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...
You know...reading this just makes me think this is a whole ugly cycle that is not gonna stop. The need to keep their power safe and secure is gonna lead to both sides constantly trying to dominate each other and constantly coming to blows over it. 
I don't see anything changing until there's a means to equate magical beings with non-mages. (Most likely as a nother poster said guns and the like). Until then fear and oppression are gonna keep going in a cycle. 

Technology isn't really going to even the score.  Mages with access to technology are going to be just that much more dangerous.  See, Anders @ Kirkwall Act 3.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You know...reading this just makes me think this is a whole ugly cycle that is not gonna stop. The need to keep their power safe and secure is gonna lead to both sides constantly trying to dominate each other and constantly coming to blows over it. 
I don't see anything changing until there's a means to equate magical beings with non-mages. (Most likely as a nother poster said guns and the like). Until then fear and oppression are gonna keep going in a cycle. 

Technology isn't really going to even the score.  Mages with access to technology are going to be just that much more dangerous.  See, Anders @ Kirkwall Act 3.

Mages haven't shown that throughout history... the only commonality among all the atrocities we have seen committed is that they were pretty much all committed by humans. Humans have shown a tendency to be evil, oppressive [expletives]. In the old days, all elves had magic and lived forever, and there was peace and harmony. It's just when moronic, racist, insane humans showed up that everything started to go down the tubes.

I say all humans should be kept in camps, where they cannot harm the Elves or the Dwarves. That argument carries just as much weight as any argument about mages. The Tevinter were mages, but worse that than, more than that, they were humans versus elves. It is human selfishness, racism, and hatred that drive all the problems in Thedas now.

I don't honestly believe that, but that argument makes about as much rational sense as the argument against mages.

Giving any one group absolute power over another is madness. Blaming any one group for all the world's problems is equally mad.

The reason I support what Anders did is that I think it's more likely that a mage rebellion will eventually result in a Dalish or Rivain-style government than inaction. I think it'll be easier to get the Mages to be moderate than the reverse, because so many of them were hesitant to rebell in the first place.

[Rifneno]

Soul Cool wrote...

Provoking a war with the single most powerful entity/organization in the entire in-game universe will certainly save more lives than if you had struggled through to make your point peacefully. Ever seen photos of Dresden, Hirshima, or Nagasaki? Imagine that sort of destruction inflicted on cities around the in-game world, but inflicted with swords and magic. I cannot fathom how you make the leap from "Rebellion against monlithic entity" to "less suffering".

Do people really think the Chantry is just going to give up and die off because the other side has the cause of Righteousness?

And I cannot fathom how you can spew that nonsense when we know full well that the Chantry is in shambles after DA2.  It's like walking out of the theater after seeing Titanic and going on about how the ship is indestructable.  And you ARE aware that video games are pretty much all about the underdog winning against impossible odds, right?  I'm guessing you were utterly shocked when the Warden beat the archdemon?

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You know...reading this just makes me think this is a whole ugly cycle that is not gonna stop. The need to keep their power safe and secure is gonna lead to both sides constantly trying to dominate each other and constantly coming to blows over it. 
I don't see anything changing until there's a means to equate magical beings with non-mages. (Most likely as a nother poster said guns and the like). Until then fear and oppression are gonna keep going in a cycle. 

Technology isn't really going to even the score.  Mages with access to technology are going to be just that much more dangerous.  See, Anders @ Kirkwall Act 3.

 

Then throw some anti mage implementions into the weapons.Something that add to magical resistance and does more damage against demons. 

There are materials that are impervious to magic (like that door in the Circle in DAO). Maybe the guns could be made out of that. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Honestly, just giving average citizens access to Templar-technique training without the hateful brainwashing would even things out pretty well.

[GavrielKay]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, just giving average citizens access to Templar-technique training without the hateful brainwashing would even things out pretty well.

That's part of what makes the Chantry seem more like a power hungry institution than a protective one.  There are other things they could be doing to protect civilians from mages that aren't happening.

1) Basic magic resistance training available more widely
2) House mages far outside of cities
3) Treat them with respect
4) Don't demonize mages to the point where civilians are either afraid to hand over their child or worse, villagers attack a mage and provoke a self defense response

And it goes on.  They are the cause of a lot of the problems that they claim to be needed to fix.  Nice little schtick they've got going.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

They could also hire some casteless dwarves to come up and hang around with all their inherent magic resistance.

I also think that giving towns and cities a choice as to whether or not they want a given mage to live in their village would help. Like, I think that DA:A Anders could easily have found a medium-sized city willing to let him set up a clinic there, or whatever. The mages would just have to petition local leaders, and the leaders would perform a cost-benefit analysis of whether a given mage being allowed to live freely in their town is more beneficial than detrimental.

Mages who couldn't find a town that would support them could start their own little towns, independently, and mundanes could decide whether or not to join them. I think they'd eventually get a lot of mundane refugees willing to live with mages, or city elves looking for a more egalitarian society.

[Wulfram]

The Chantry's official policy is to treat mages with respect, and doesn't demonize those who follow the Chantry's laws.

Divine Justinia I said "Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters."

It's the implementation of this by the Templars that they struggle with. Fundamentally, I guess the problem is that people who like mages probably aren't going to want to sign up to be their jailors.

[Soul Cool]

Rifneno wrote...
And I cannot fathom how you can spew that nonsense when we know full well that the Chantry is in shambles after DA2.

This is like saying burning Milan would cause the Roman Catholic Church to collapse in on itself because someone in Paris got mad at Rome for Milan burning. Monlithic entities don't disintegrate overnight. Even if they are in decline, which I don't think they are if the player character is on their side, they still have the biggest stick by a very large margin.

Rifneno wrote...
 It's like walking out of the theater after seeing Titanic and going on about how the ship is indestructable.  And you ARE aware that video games are pretty much all about the underdog winning against impossible odds, right?  I'm guessing you were utterly shocked when the Warden beat the archdemon?

I'm not shocked when a player character does anything. Rules generally do not apply, because reality is boring. And we don't play games to be bored.

Modifié par Soul Cool, 02 juin 2011 - 05:23 .

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, just giving average citizens access to Templar-technique training without the hateful brainwashing would even things out pretty well.

We're talking about societies that are barely literate, in the case of Ferelden, or with stark social inequalities, like Orlais- there's not even a mechanism for this and certainly not outside the Chantry.  I do think the templar order can be reformed, to where it is more of a police force, better trained, more decentralized and less radicalized, employing anti-mage mages as well, who are the most effective at combatting rogue mages (Mana Clash etc.).  This is the sort of thing I believe can only come about from gradual reform within Andrastianism, the kind of thing my Warden mage would have tried to encourage, and the kind of thing which Anders' act makes less likely to happen.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

The Chantry's official policy is to treat mages with respect, and doesn't demonize those who follow the Chantry's laws.

Divine Justinia I said "Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters."

It's the implementation of this by the Templars that they struggle with. Fundamentally, I guess the problem is that people who like mages probably aren't going to want to sign up to be their jailors.

See, you can't find anyone past Justina I to quote positively about mages. You've got to bear in mind that that was long ago, before Andraste's teachings were so warped, before they ordered the exalted march on the Dales and expurgated the canticle of Shartan. (I know I seem a bit obsessed with that, but when you start declaring major portions of your own prophet's teachings heretical for political reasons, something is very, very wrong with that particular institution.) Andrasteism is no longer the church of Justina I. It has not been for centuries.

If they still truly believed this, any Templar who showed hatred against mages or viewed their talents as a curse would not rise very far in their ranks, and those who were compassionate would reach positions of power. This does not seem to be the case. In fact, in DA:O , Wynne implies that compassion toward mages is rapidly and deliberately stripped from anyone who completes Templar training. When she finds that Alistair does not hate her, even when he learns that she had a child while in the circle, she remarks that he was saved from Templar training just in time.

Whatever the "ideal" interpretation of Andraste's teaching on mages is, it has been lost for centuries and no one we have encountered who exists within the structure of the Templar system seems to have any interest in changing it. It is not just an issue that people who dislike mages are more likely to choose to be Templars, anyone who chooses to be a Templar is systematically brainwashed to hate mages, and such hatred is encouraged and rewarded with promotions.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 02 juin 2011 - 05:41 .

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

This is the sort of thing I believe can only come about from gradual reform within Andrastianism, the kind of thing my Warden mage would have tried to encourage, and the kind of thing which Anders' act makes less likely to happen.

I wonder what it is about the prior 1000 years that makes you think this was ever going to happen.  Anders makes it less likely than what exactly?  Going from 1/1000000 to 1/100000000 chance may seem bad, but practically speaking it doesn't matter.  And, whether you think it's silly of the writers or not, in point of fact, Anders' act gets the mages closer to freedom than they've been during those 1000 years. 

It remains to be seen where they plan to take the story next, but the circles having emancipated themselves and the Templars abdoning their posts seems to be progress. 

Well, progress if you're a supporter of mage freedom anyway - not so much if you're a devout Templar.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

GavrielKay wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

This is the sort of thing I believe can only come about from gradual reform within Andrastianism, the kind of thing my Warden mage would have tried to encourage, and the kind of thing which Anders' act makes less likely to happen.

I wonder what it is about the prior 1000 years that makes you think this was ever going to happen.  Anders makes it less likely than what exactly?  Going from 1/1000000 to 1/100000000 chance may seem bad, but practically speaking it doesn't matter.  And, whether you think it's silly of the writers or not, in point of fact, Anders' act gets the mages closer to freedom than they've been during those 1000 years. 

It remains to be seen where they plan to take the story next, but the circles having emancipated themselves and the Templars abdoning their posts seems to be progress. 

Well, progress if you're a supporter of mage freedom anyway - not so much if you're a devout Templar.

Also, the Divine knew about everything that was happening in Kirkwall. She could have taken Meredith out, put in someone more reasonable. The fact that Ser Alrik was allowed to continue being a Templar after even PROPOSING the Tranquil solution is evidence of how completely corrupt and unsalvageable the current institution is. And he did propose it... if Meredith and the Divine rejected the idea, they must have known of it... but neither of them saw it as a warning sign dire enough to cause them to remove Alrik from duty.

One Warden, who may be dead or disappeared, who can't even protect Warden!Anders, isn't going to be able to change the Chantry (my Warden is so freaking angry about the Templar crap that finally drove Anders insane. She made him a Warden to protect him, not to see his spirit crushed.) We actually have solid evidence of this fact... the fact that the Templars refused to leave Anders alone after his Conscription, and that they actively opposed the Wardens until the Wardens allowed them to place a Templar in control of Anders.

It just seems completely irrational to imagine that a single Warden can have that much pull, when the Templars showed how little respect they have for the Wardens when it comes to mages in Awakenings, and in Anders' short story. In fact, it's the Templar's disrespect for the Wardens in general that lead me to mistrust them from the start.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 02 juin 2011 - 06:30 .

[GavrielKay]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It just seems completely irrational to imagine that a single Warden can have that much pull....

Especially when the Warden and King Alistair together can't get the mages freed in Ferelden.  You know, the supposedly sovreign country that Alistair rules?  The Chantry doesn't even sneak the mages out in the middle of the night - they just openly defy the edict.

[Wulfram]

I cite Justinia I because she is conveniently quoted in the Codex. I believe her sermon is found near Elthina's pulpit, so it seems likely to be current Chantry doctrine.
Knight Commander Greagoir is respectful of mages, and does not demonize them, so such attitudes are not ubiquitous even among Templars.
Wynne doesn't expect Alistair to hate her - actually Alistair expects her to be wary of him, a notion to which she is dismissive, saying that Templars serve a necessary function. She thinks he got away from the Chantry just in time not because he doesn't hate her for being a mage, but because he doesn't think less of her for having had a child out of wedlock.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

I cite Justinia I because she is conveniently quoted in the Codex. I believe her sermon is found near Elthina's pulpit, so it seems likely to be current Chantry doctrine.
Knight Commander Greagoir is respectful of mages, and does not demonize them, so such attitudes are not ubiquitous even among Templars.
Wynne doesn't expect Alistair to hate her - actually Alistair expects her to be wary of him, a notion to which she is dismissive, saying that Templars serve a necessary function. She thinks he got away from the Chantry just in time not because he doesn't hate her for being a mage, but because he doesn't think less of her for having had a child out of wedlock.

I don't get the same interpretation of that conversation. Here it is, reproduced:

Alistair: You know, of all the mages I've met you have to be the first one I can honestly say I've really liked.
Wynne: Why thank you, Alistair. I am quite touched. I
like you, too, Alistair. I imagine my son would have grown up to be
someone like you.
Alistair: Your son? I thought you said you were never married?
Wynne: That's true. I never have been.
Alistair: I... oh. Then this wasn't... before you joined the circle?
Wynne: I joined the Circle at the age of nine. So, no. Do you still like me?
Alistair: Err... yes? Why wouldn't I?
Wynne: Good. It appears you got away from the Chantry just in time.

This does not imply she thought he'd dislike her because she had a kid out of wedlock. It's only after she reveals that she had the kid while in the circle that she asks him if he dislikes her.

As for Justina I, of course her teachings are still recorded, they just aren't followed or respected in any significant way. Meredith says that she is protecting mages from "their curse" many times, which seems directly contradictory to what Justina I taught. It's deeds not words that show what the Chantry's actual policies are, and I have seen no evidence that the particular line you cited is respected by more than a tiny minority of Templars. Otherwise, any templar who abused a mage who was not a proven Malificar would be drummed out of the order, or would at least not achieve significant rank.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 02 juin 2011 - 06:56 .

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Also, the Divine knew about everything that was happening in Kirkwall. She could have taken Meredith out, put in someone more reasonable. The fact that Ser Alrik was allowed to continue being a Templar after even PROPOSING the Tranquil solution is evidence of how completely corrupt and unsalvageable the current institution is. And he did propose it... if Meredith and the Divine rejected the idea, they must have known of it... but neither of them saw it as a warning sign dire enough to cause them to remove Alrik from duty.

Anyone living in a city which is wall to wall with bat**** insane mages  would see this as a rational, if extreme, measure. 

One Warden, who may be dead or disappeared, who can't even protect Warden!Anders, isn't going to be able to change the Chantry 

I did not mean to imply that the Warden could.  Just giving her as an example of one person who could assert a positive influence, without resorting to blowing up Chantry buildings.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juin 2011 - 07:23 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...
Anyone living in a city which is wall to wall with bat**** insane mages  would see this as a rational, if extreme, measure. 
.

The Divine doesn't live in Kirkwall but she didn't see it as the horrible proposal for what it was.  Elthina to her very minor credit does and refuses to discuss it and turns away.  She knows the procedure is wrong and the proposal is horrific, but other than turning it down refuses to take further action.  In fact Elthina is far more concerned about a "murdered templar" than she is about a young girl who was about to be lobomized and subsequently raped which tells me everything I have to know about Elthina's moral character.

-Polaris

[The Baconer]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't see anything changing until there's a means to equate magical beings with non-mages. (Most likely as a nother poster said guns and the like). Until then fear and oppression are gonna keep going in a cycle. 

That makes about as much sense as trying to 'equate' a flock of sheep with their shepherd.

Besides, the only human civilization that would be capable or willing to advance technology would be Tevinter.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

Anyone living in a city which is wall to wall with bat**** insane mages  would see this as a rational, if extreme, measure. 

Or, said rational person could ask themselves why the Kirkwall circle is so much worse than others.  That person might discover that a woman with mage related childhood trauma had been promoted to Knight Commander.  They might also discover that the Gallows was just about the worst place on the planet to keep mages due to the Tevinter activity.  Maybe they could collect some testimony about rape, whipping and illegal Tranquiling while they're at it.

Allowing the mages to be driven crazy by rape, torture and the thin veil is a really lousy way to prove that anyone rational is in charge.

I wonder why this version of "extreme" sounds "rational" to you, but Anders' doesn't.  Does the emotional death of all the mages count for so much less than the deaths of Elthina and her cronies?

I did not mean to imply that the Warden could.  Just giving her as an example of one person who could assert a positive influence, without resorting to blowing up Chantry buildings.

Well, I won't put words in your mouth, but your earlier comment came off as very much suggesting that your mage Warden could actually get something done.  If that wasn't your intent then it was stated poorly.

Why should the mages sit around in their prisons with their abusive guards for another 1000 years hoping that the Chantry will suddenly examine its own practices and find fault?  What exactly is it about the situation that you think will respond to something as simple as "positive influence?"

[Ryzaki]

The Baconer wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I don't see anything changing until there's a means to equate magical beings with non-mages. (Most likely as a nother poster said guns and the like). Until then fear and oppression are gonna keep going in a cycle. 

That makes about as much sense as trying to 'equate' a flock of sheep with their shepherd.

Besides, the only human civilization that would be capable or willing to advance technology would be Tevinter.

 

First off I wrote that not Addai

Second of the Qunari already have gunpowder or did you not realize that? 

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...
I wonder why this version of "extreme" sounds "rational" to you, but Anders' doesn't.  Does the emotional death of all the mages count for so much less than the deaths of Elthina and her cronies?

I did say a pox on both their houses.  I don't know why I should have to agree with either Meredith or Anders, or think his blowing up a city square is justified because of her actions or vice versa.  Nuance seems lost in the discussion, i.e. if you're not with us you're against us.

Well, I won't put words in your mouth, but your earlier comment came off as very much suggesting that your mage Warden could actually get something done.  If that wasn't your intent then it was stated poorly.

I do suppose she could get "something" done.  Not that one person in one country is going to constitute the answer to the problem.  Again, I don't buy into extremism. 

Why should the mages sit around in their prisons with their abusive guards for another 1000 years hoping that the Chantry will suddenly examine its own practices and find fault?  What exactly is it about the situation that you think will respond to something as simple as "positive influence?"

Right, well, you've obviously made up your mind and there's no point in further discussion.  Happy revolution.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Divine doesn't live in Kirkwall but she didn't see it as the horrible proposal for what it was.  Elthina to her very minor credit does and refuses to discuss it and turns away.  She knows the procedure is wrong and the proposal is horrific, but other than turning it down refuses to take further action.  In fact Elthina is far more concerned about a "murdered templar" than she is about a young girl who was about to be lobomized and subsequently raped which tells me everything I have to know about Elthina's moral character.

-Polaris

If a field commander asks a general for permission to fire at will and the general says no, he expects his order to be followed.  If he suspects the commander is losing control, he sends someone to investigate- like Leliana.

But of course, the Divine will never be able to do anything right if you consider a priori that the system she operates in is illegitimate and needs to be destroyed.  Those who think the Circle system should be eliminated- what point is there in discussing with you quibbles over Elthina and the Divine?  Kill them all and burn their buildings.  I'm sure the mage paradise that results will make it all worth your while and Anders statues will be erected in every city instead of Andraste, the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc. etc.

[simbiankillers]

Прикольная игра, но к сожалению ожидал большего ))