1207 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

So making an invalid comparison is okay because it's your opinion now?

Slavery was part of the reason behind the war. Given all the historical debates over the accuracy of facts in all parts of historical accounts, I don't see why we're even delving into this as far as it's gone. Weren't we discussing Anders originally, not the civil war?

Ryzaki wrote...

Compare and contrast to actual historical events should be just fine as long as we keep the comparisons to DA2. After all I've seen quite a few catholic church comparisons in thsi thread.

You don't give a flip? *shrugs* No need to get angry.

Does that mean we're going to compare the Chantry to a real life organization that committed genocide against many people?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
I heard somewhere (not sure if try this is why I'm asking) that there was several people willing to make war if Ghandi was harmed.

Is that true?

Indians? If he was killed by the British, he would have most certainly died a martyre and I would not be surprised if the British had to deal with one of the largest insurrection in their history. Furthermore, such an act would have had backlash even in Britain, as new ideas were on the rise and colonial imperialism (or at least old methods) was becoming more and more contested. So it plays into Gandhi's symbolic power and popularity.

Of course his actual death was much more complicated as it came at the hands of a Hindu extremist, but that's almost an entirely different topic (almost, because the British were quick to get their nose in the civil war).

Silfren wrote...
I wasn't using it to justfy Anders.
At least, I wasn't trying to specifically use the American Civil War to
justify Anders. More that I think the simple fact of believing slavery
itself to be evil justifies Anders. And yes, I very much do think that
the situation of mages living in Circles amounts to slavery.

If you want to talk about ideals, sure. Maybe. Though that logic can be used to describe almost everything. And yea, many used the premise of Western economic slavery (or neo-colonialism, which actually has some academic backing and grounding) of parts of the world to do certain stuff.

On a more objective level, Anders is nothing like the Northern States on so many different levels, that I can't even compare them superficially. The most I can do is say that Anders and A. Lincoln have first names that start with an "A".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 03:28 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Slavery was part of the reason behind the war. Given all the historical debates over the accuracy of facts in all parts of historical accounts, I don't see why we're even delving into this as far as it's gone. Weren't we discussing Anders originally, not the civil war?

It wasn't however THE reason for the war. And claiming such to me is laughable. There was no single THE reason for the CW. It was a combination of factors like most wars. 

And yes we were. Riferno was the one who originally compared Anders' actions to the Civil War. I don't feel the two actions are comparable. (for multiple reasons far more than slavery only one of many facets in the CW). 

Does that mean we're going to compare the Chantry to a real life organization that committed genocide against many people?

 

Go ahead. If the comparison works. I could use some brushing up on my history anyway. I have no problem supporting ****s in a video game. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 03:29 .

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I heard somewhere (not sure if try this is why I'm asking) that there was several people willing to make war if Ghandi was harmed.

Is that true?

Indians? If he was killed by the British, he would have most certainly died a martyre and I would not be surprised if the British had to deal with one of the largest inserrections in their history. Furthermore, such an act would have had backlash even in Britain, as new ideas were on the rise and colonial imperialism was becoming mroe and more contested. So it plays into Gandhi's symbolic power and popularity.

Of course his actual death was much more cmplicated as it came at the hands of a Hindu extremist, but that's almost an entirely different topic (almost, because the British were quick to get their nose in the civil war).

Silfren wrote...
I wasn't using it to justfy Anders.
At least, I wasn't trying to specifically use the American Civil War to
justify Anders. More that I think the simple fact of believing slavery
itself to be evil justifies Anders. And yes, I very much do think that
the situation of mages living in Circles amounts to slavery.

If you want to talk about ideals, sure. Maybe. Though that logic can be used to describe almost everything. And yea, many used the premise of Western economic slavery (or neo-colonialism, which actually has some academic backing and grounding) of parts of the world to do certain stuff.

On a more objective level, Anders is nothing like the Northern States on so many different levels, that I can't even compare them superficially. The most I can do is say that Anders and A. Lincoln have first names that start with an "A".

I've never even hinted that Anders was akin to Lincoln.  I have compared him with John Brown, but mostly in discussions where he gets compared to bin Laden.

[Beerfish]

Kind of ironic that the people trying to link up mages in a tower to slavery as an excuse for Anders actions often seem to be happy about the Disney land of magedom, Tevinter where slavery is rampant and accepted.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...
I've never even hinted that Anders was akin to Lincoln.  I have compared him with John Brown, but mostly in discussions where he gets compared to bin Laden.

I do not not know of Brown nor will I pretend to (aka read his wiki page and pretend I know him).  But I assume he wasn't working alone and that he wasn't insane.

I wouldn't equate Anders to Ben Ladin either, though not necessarily because I view the former as better than the latter. The latter however was certainly much more dangerous, in part because he isn't a complete fool like Anders.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 03:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah cramps. You love to make me a raving b**** .

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I heard somewhere (not sure if try this is why I'm asking) that there was several people willing to make war if Ghandi was harmed.

Is that true?

Indians? If he was killed by the British, he would have most certainly died a martyre and I would not be surprised if the British had to deal with one of the largest insurrection in their history. Furthermore, such an act would have had backlash even in Britain, as new ideas were on the rise and colonial imperialism (or at least old methods) was becoming more and more contested. So it plays into Gandhi's symbolic power and popularity.

Of course his actual death was much more complicated as it came at the hands of a Hindu extremist, but that's almost an entirely different topic (almost, because the British were quick to get their nose in the civil war).

Interesting. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 03:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Beerfish wrote...

Kind of ironic that the people trying to link up mages in a tower to slavery as an excuse for Anders actions often seem to be happy about the Disney land of magedom, Tevinter where slavery is rampant and accepted.

And I again reference three things:

Anders is happy with Fenris being taken to slavery.
Anders dismissing the dangers of magic as only pertaining to "others" (hateful, but mostly dishonnest and idiotic)
Anders being impressed by the Baroness.

So yea, I am now even less sure that the Anders / Brown comparision holds.

Anders might be against the slavery of *his* people, but he certainly doesn't seem to care about others that much, at least as he loses control gradually and surely. I do not see him having a universal objection to slavery or being truly dedicated to it, even if he does claim to at one point (IIRC).

But all this talk is mostly irrelevent as we keep implying that Anders is sane and sober, when he isn't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Kind of ironic that the people trying to link up mages in a tower to slavery as an excuse for Anders actions often seem to be happy about the Disney land of magedom, Tevinter where slavery is rampant and accepted.

And I again reference three things:

Anders is happy with Fenris being taken to slavery.
Anders dismissing the dangers of magic as only pertaining to "others" (hatefult, but msotly dishonnest and idiotc)
Anders being impressed by the Baroness.

So yea, I am now even less sure that the Anders / Brown comparision holds.

Anders might be against the slavery of *his* people, but he certainly doesn't seem to care about others that much, at least as he loses control gradually and surely. 

 

Didn't Joe Brown have allies? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Slavery was part of the reason behind the war. Given all the historical debates over the accuracy of facts in all parts of historical accounts, I don't see why we're even delving into this as far as it's gone. Weren't we discussing Anders originally, not the civil war?

It wasn't however THE reason for the war. And claiming such to me is laughable. There was no single THE reason for the CW. It was a combination of factors like most wars.

Many institutions of learning address the issue of slavery as one of the main causes of the civil war. I don't see the point in debating this when it isn't the focus of the thread. Aren't we addressing the issue of Anders?

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Does that mean we're going to compare the Chantry to a real life organization that committed genocide against many people?

Go ahead. If the comparison works. I could use some brushing up on my history anyway.

I'm guessing there's a reason the writers snuck in "The Tranquil Solution" and Sebastian's specific use of the term "holocaust."

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Many institutions of learning address the issue of slavery as one of the main causes of the civil war. I don't see the point in debating this when it isn't the focus of the thread. Aren't we addressing the issue of Anders?

One of being the most important bit.  
Anyways what about Anders? 

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm guessing there's a reason the writers snuck in "The Tranquil Solution" and Sebastian's specific use of the term "holocaust."

 

The templars are supposed to be N*** Germany? Then who's Hitler? Can't be Meredith. She's too dumb. (And no I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm geniunely curious who in the Chantry has the charisma, power and resources of him).  Beacuse whoever it is I'm not seeing it. He wouldn't have let Kirkwall fallen so far. (If I have my history correct).  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 03:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm guessing there's a reason the writers snuck in "The Tranquil Solution" and Sebastian's specific use of the term "holocaust."

Because you trust that the writers actually understand the analogies they are making?
I certainly don't.

I see this as to create shock and provoke an immediate distate of Alrik, and perhaps add nuance to Meredith and Elthina who rejected it (so it's as if saying that Meredith can't be all that bad, there are worse alternatives. But of course they had to bring in the idol).

But I do not see it as an accurate or that pertinente of an analogy.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Didn't Joe Brown have allies?

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Didn't Joe Brown have allies?

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

 

You're joking right? Anders doesn't tell Hawke about his plan and can have no one from Hawke's crew on his side. He has no canon person that will stand by his side regardless excpet for Hawke and that depends on player choice. Everyone else stays because of Hawke. Even Merrill isn't on his side unless Hawke has ignored her utterly. And she doesn't stop Hawke from killing Anders. (notto mention due to the mage rule if Beth is dead she stays by Hawke's side anyway. ) 

Anders is not a charismatic leader. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 03:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Didn't Joe Brown have allies?

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

A. Hawke didn't know. Neither did anyone else
B. Hawke may not have approved.
C. Hawke may have even tried to report him but Kirkwall's tax on IQ prevented a response. 

So no. Even if Hawke helped him, he didn't know what he was doing.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Kind of ironic that the people trying to link up mages in a tower to slavery as an excuse for Anders actions often seem to be happy about the Disney land of magedom, Tevinter where slavery is rampant and accepted.

There's the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain - societies with free mages that aren't emulating the Imperium.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Kind of ironic that the people trying to link up mages in a tower to slavery as an excuse for Anders actions often seem to be happy about the Disney land of magedom, Tevinter where slavery is rampant and accepted.

There's the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain - societies with free mages that aren't emulating the Imperium.

 But it must be said that Anders spefically refers to Tevinter as his ideal. And I doubt he even understands a quarter of it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Didn't Joe Brown have allies?

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

A. Hawke didn't know. Neither did anyone else
B. Hawke may not have approved.
C. Hawke may have even tried to report him but Kirkwall's tax on IQ prevented a response. 

So no. Even if Hawke helped him, he didn't know what he was doing.

 

Oh god now that...that..that makes SO much sense.  

...But then why are so many of the rich people like that too?  

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

 

You're joking right? Anders doesn't tell Hawke about his plan and can have no one from Hawke's crew on his side. He has no canon person that will stand by his side. (Except if the player chooses. Hawke). Everyone else stays because of Hawke. 

Anders is not a charismatic leader. 

I never claimed Anders was a charismatic leader, but you made an inaccurate statement to say Anders had no allies when he can have a pro-mage Hawke who befriended Anders and agrees with him, as well as his crew.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Like a companion (possibly an LI)? Or surviving sibling? That's what they did for the Thrask quest, kidnapping someone close. I'm sure the writers could have thought of something neat.

I prefer choices to linear storytelling. I hated "Best Served Cold" because I found out that none of Hawke's actions mattered, it all lead to the same outcome. What happened to Kirkwall being shaped by the choices made by Hawke?

I know what you mean, and I wasn't fond of "Best Served Cold" either. Same deal with "The Last Straw".

But "The Last Straw" could have been handled better. There could have been consequences to not agreeing to help Anders in his final quest, for instance, and the most obvious one is him going to another of Hawke's companions and convincing or tricking them to lend aid.

Maybe that NPC has second thoughts or learns they were deceived and goes back to the Chantry to figure out what Anders was up to. Maybe that NPC gets killed.

It doesn't change the Chantry blowing up (the way the story's climax was written it was unavoidable), but at least it would have made some sort of tangible difference between helping and not helping, and consequences, even bad ones, are what choice is supposed to be about. Currently there are none. What Hawke does doesn't matter.

Rifneno wrote...
Right. I'm sure everyone would've loved having another choice taken away from them, as well as a valuable party member.

It doesn't have to be a party member. It was merely an example of something that could have been done to insert a personal cost to the PC, and I don't see how it would have taken away any kind of choice since there WAS no choice in that quest to begin with.

Personal attacks? I could say the same for you, judging people based on getting immersed in a work of fiction meant for immersion. But what's really telling is how you switched the target of your judgments from people who thought characters like Elthina or Anders got what was coming to them, to homophobes who want to kill people for being gay.

I think a lot of reasons people use to justify or enjoy killing others are terrible. *shrug* But if you want to continue this line of conversation to talk about me specifically, please take this to a PM so we can wag our fingers at each other in private.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Didn't Joe Brown have allies?

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

A. Hawke didn't know. Neither did anyone else
B. Hawke may not have approved.
C. Hawke may have even tried to report him but Kirkwall's tax on IQ prevented a response. 

So no. Even if Hawke helped him, he didn't know what he was doing.

Yet there are people who support Anders, which means their respective Hawkes can support Anders, which means Anders can have allies. I suppose Nathaniel has a point - I'm simply not a fan of oversimplications.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean like Hawke and his moiety crew?

 

You're joking right? Anders doesn't tell Hawke about his plan and can have no one from Hawke's crew on his side. He has no canon person that will stand by his side. (Except if the player chooses. Hawke). Everyone else stays because of Hawke. 

Anders is not a charismatic leader. 

I never claimed Anders was a charismatic leader, but you made an inaccurate statement to say Anders had no allies when he can have a pro-mage Hawke who befriended Anders and agrees with him, as well as his crew.

 

My bad. 

Anders has allies depending on the player choice. (and at max seven allies) not to mention I wouldn't consider Aveline/Fenris his allies. They're there because of Hawke. Not Anders. Varric doesn't think its a good idea to help "dangerous people run amok." so I'm willing to bet my dollar he wouldn't be there except for Hawke. Merrill would unless of course Hawke is there, Bethany maybe a CM and if she's a warden she doesn't care about him (Templar Carver would cut him down. WC wouldn't care) Seb is defintely not an ally. Isabela...she might help him if the mood strikes. 

Of course he can also do the same thing with zero allies. Kind of hard to compare him to someone who will always have allies. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 03:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
but you made an inaccurate statement to say Anders had no allies when he can have a pro-mage Hawke who befriended Anders and agrees with him, as well as his crew.

Even a pro-mage Hawke had no idea what Anders was doing and what he was planing to do. And that's not canonical. So it canot be used as an argument. Anders does not depends at all on others.

We are I assume talking about bombing the Chantry.

Furthermore, remove Hawke and I doubt Anders would have even met any of those "allies". The only thing binding those bunch of nitwits was Hawke. "Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool that follows him?".

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yet there are people who support Anders, which means their respective Hawkes can support Anders, which means Anders can have allies. I suppose Nathaniel has a point - I'm simply not a fan of oversimplications.

Can. Not does. It's not canonical and Anders proceeds with what he does regardless.

Furthermore, you cannot argue that Hawke was an ally in bombing the Chantry because he had no idea what Anders was planning. That's what I am referring to.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

My bad. 

Anders has allies depending on the player choice. (and at max seven allies) not to mention I wouldn't consider Aveline/Fenris his allies. They're there because of Hawke. Not Anders. Varric doesn't think its a good idea to help "dangerous people run amok." so I'm willing to bet my dollar he wouldn't be there except for Hawke. Merrill would unless of course Hawke is there, Bethany maybe a CM and if she's a warden she doesn't care about him (Templar Carver would cut him down. WC wouldn't care) Seb is defintely not an ally. Isabela...she might help him if the mood strikes. 

Of course he can also do the same thing with zero allies. Kind of hard to compare him to someone who will always have allies. 

Of course it depends on Hawke via the Player's choice, but it's still an issue that Anders can have allies.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
but you made an inaccurate statement to say Anders had no allies when he can have a pro-mage Hawke who befriended Anders and agrees with him, as well as his crew.

Even a pro-mage Hawke had no idea what Anders was doing and what he was planing to do. And that's not canonical. So it canot be used as an argument. Anders does not depends at all on others.

We are I assume talking about bombing the Chantry.

Furthermore, remove Hawke and I doubt Anders would have even met any of those "allies". The only thing binding those bunch of nitwits was Hawke. "Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool that follows him?". 

My statement addressed that Hawke can have allies, not the context in which those allies can side with Anders or their reasons why the Champion would chose to do so.