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[Jewelisms]

Beerfish wrote...
 When people claim "She did nothing at all and thus this is all her fault!" They really mean "She did not support
the side I support thus it is her fault!"

On the contrary.  She, in her own words, left all of it in the makers hands.  I would expect her to support the templars sure, but it was her job to keep the templars in line - starting with the Knight Commander, which she chose not to do. 

Beerfish wrote...
She tried to broker a peace between the two sides, she did have meetings between the two sides, she did reject Alricks tranquil solution (as did Meredith).

They rejected the tranquil solution on paper and then turned a blind eye to the very actions that they supposedly rejected.  Not buying it.  His actions were clearly supported by their inaction.

Beerfish wrote...
She stopped the Divine, through her agent 'Nightingale' from marching in a with force to purge Kirkwall.

Really?  That isn't the impression I was left with.  The Divine sent her agent to inform of the pending invasion, not to negotiate peace.

Beerfish wrote...
She made mistakes and didn't recognize the danger to herself but she certainly tried to diffuse things as best she could.

There was only one instance that I can recall where she did anything remotely relating to diffusing and that is at the beginning of Act 3 when she esentially sends Meridith and Orsino to their rooms.  Every single time my Hawke talked to her and asked her to intervene all Hawke got were platitudes about how a gentle mother lets the children work out their own differnces.  She does not even try to mediate.  As if she thinks if she closes her eyes really tight that it will all just go away.  Her inaction allowed the whole situation to spiral out of control.


Edited for formatting..

Modifié par Jewelisms, 24 mai 2011 - 07:20 .

[rak72]

even if you thought Elthina was sucky at her job, it doesn't make it right to murder her and everyone standining in a 200 yard radius of her. Anders is a greasy terrorist pig.

[The Baconer]

To the OP, no, not necessarily. The Chantry can't be replaced by a more Tevinter-centric governing body if all the mages get killed in a civil war.

[Beerfish]

GavrielKay wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

She made mistakes and didn't recognize the danger to herself but she certainly tried to diffuse things as best she could.

She appointed a woman who had experienced a personal tragedy so great that she could never be expected to behave in a rational fashion around mages.  You don't watch your sister become an abomination and kill your family and then your village and just shrug it off.  Meredith should never have been in any position of power over mages. 

If Elthina promoted Meredith to Knight Commander because this childhood tragedy would ensure her vigilance then she exemplifies the worst of the dogma of the Chantry.  And if she did it out of ignorance or apathy then she is completely incompetent and can't be trusted to perform her duties.

Either way, Elthina directly helped to create the situation in Kirkwall.  Her pathetic efforts to create a compromise between a zealot that she put in power and a First Enchanter who turns out to have a shady side were obviously doomed and she was in a position to know this.

Edit:  spelling

What was she supposed to do? (and going back to why Meredith was appointed is a whole other story)

Let's hear what action Elthina was supposed to take.  As I've said, I fully expect answers to fall along the lines of bias each of us has to who is right or wrong in this matter.

[Beerfish]

Jewelisms wrote...

On the contrary.  She, in her own words, left all of it in the makers hands.  I would expect her to support the templars sure, but it was her job to keep the templars in line - starting with the Knight Commander, which she chose not to do. 

She did try and keep the KC in line at least twice she scolds Meredith and sends her away when she is calling for Orsino to be removed and or executed for treason.  There is also no hard and fast proof that Elthina knew anywhere near as much as we as players know throughout the game.  When Hawke suggests she do something she indicates that the maker is a loving maker that guides with a gentle hand.  She can bring the hammer down on the mages or she can bring the hammer down on the templars, doing either thing will suddenly totally shift the power base to the other side and both sides have huge problems.

They rejected the tranquil solution on paper and then turned a blind eye to the very actions that they supposedly rejected.  Not buying it.  His actions were clearly supported by their inaction.

Please provde proof that both Meredith and Elthina knew exactly what Alrick was up to.


Really?  That isn't the impression I was left with.  The Divine sent her agent to inform of the pending invasion, not to negotiate peace.

The divine sent an agent to find out if things were as bad as they were hearing and were prepared to invade.  Elthina clearly says 'no' and tries to reach a compromise instead.


There was only one instance that I can recall where she did anything remotely relating to diffusing and that is at the beginning of Act 3 when she esentially sends Meridith and Orsino to their rooms.  Every single time my Hawke talked to her and asked her to intervene all Hawke got were platitudes about how a gentle mother lets the children work out their own differnces.  She does not even try to mediate.  As if she thinks if she closes her eyes really tight that it will all just go away.  Her inaction allowed the whole situation to spiral out of control.

After Petrice gets knocked off in the Chantry I'm pretty sure as she pauses on the stairway with Petrice the pin cusion on the ground she ask to see both the 1st enchanter and the KC.

Your last statement is correct though.  However which action would have preferred she take?  A)  Tell Meredith that the mages indeed were out of control on the area and to perhaps offer the rite of annulement or a purge of mages.  Neuter the Templars and let the mage situaiton proliferate unchecked.  C) Send for the divine army to come in a wipe things clean.  Those are pretty much your choices.  As I said before the answers will change depending on which side we as players favour. 

In the meantime we have a crazed knight commander an horrendously bad 1st enchanter a crazy possessed Anders and a champion that does just as little as Elthina and yet the one semi sane, non violent participant gets blamed for it all.

Modifié par Beerfish, 24 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[GavrielKay]

Beerfish wrote...

What was she supposed to do? (and going back to why Meredith was appointed is a whole other story)

Let's hear what action Elthina was supposed to take.  As I've said, I fully expect answers to fall along the lines of bias each of us has to who is right or wrong in this matter.

She was supposed to force Meredith to enforce Chantry law on pain of removal from her post.  When/if Meredith failed to bring the Templars in line, Elthina should appoint a replacement and see to it that the mages are treated with dignity and respect.  I think you exagerate by saying Elthina must come down in favor of more power for either the mages or Templars.  Raping, torturing and Tranquling harrowed mages is already against Chantry law.  It is her duty to make sure that is enforced even while maintaining the status quo in terms of balance of power.

[Silfren]

SirOccam wrote...

Of course not. I liked Elthina...she seemed to be the only reasonable one in the whole damn city. Sadly, reluctance to side strictly with one extreme or another is apparently deserving of death.

As a player, I was just kind of shocked, then dismayed that I couldn't find a way to prevent it, but overall just entertained by the high dramatic value. Most of my Hawkes have been horrified and furious by turns. Most of them are diplomatic, peaceful types.

Why would she have had to take sides?  Would it have been taking sides to require Meredith to abide by Chantry law?  Would putting a stop to the templar abuses have been taking sides?

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

I certainly was. The Grand Cleric is the most useless person there. Not only did she not watch her lunatic fringe groups carefully, she didn't try to take a stand for anything. You could say it was due to her religious beliefs but if that were true she would've been more firm in remaining neutral to the politics around Kirkwall.

What does she do? Absolutely nothing. All she ever offered anyone were a bunch of empty anaologies about the Maker.

Maybe some of you might disagree, but I think even a religion needs to take a stand in conflicts like that. The Chantry was just hypocritically ignoring atrocities and turning about face to their own involvement in some instances. The Grand Cleric didn't bother doing a thing. She just strikes me as irresponsible and two-faced behind that kind smile.

She's a coward and I'm glad Anders was able to make use of her. After all, in politics, if you're not going to get more power then you can sure as hell bet that someone else will. It's partly because the Chantry didn't take a stand that the situation deteriorated as it did.

Most people in Kirkwall didn't take a stand in the Mage-Templar conflcit. Should Anders have murdered them all too? Is "not helping mages" a crime worthy of execution? What about all the other people in the Chantry at the time? Like say those Revered Sisters who's apparently only role in the game is talk about things like feeding orphans whenever you walk past them?

Unlike the citizens of Kirkwall, Elthina actually had a responsibility to take a stand.  It was her freaking job! 

[Silfren]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

I'd be more sympathetic to Anders' actions if he picked a more suitable target. The Gallows would have been better, considering it would have taken out the actually source of the problem; the Knight-Commander and the Circle itself.


Instead, he has to pull a Timothy McVeigh and blow up a building with a heavy population of "innocents". Good bye sisters who help the poor, any poor sap that happened to claim shelter in sanctuary that night, and any other poor sap that happened to be close to the Chantry that night.

Blowing up the Circle with all those mages inside would hardly have been fewer innocents than were in the Chantry.  Never minding that we don't actually see anyone in the Chantry when it goes boom other than Elthina and some templars.  

The Gallows wasn't the source of the problem--Anders isn't trying to solve the issue in Kirkwall, but is attacking the entire system throughout Thedas.  He specifically wanted and needed to target the institution behind the Circles, which is the Chantry itself.  The world wouldn't have taken notice the way it did had he attacked the Gallows.

[Silfren]

Rojahar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Anders wanted to remove any source of compromise and push Meredith to invoke the ROA. He was perfectly willing to sacrifice mages for the sake of the cause, and he has a lot of Kirkwall mage blood on his hands as a result of what he did with the Chantry.

He wanted a symbol and he wanted a war between the mages and templars. He destroyed the Chantry because there would be no going back.

It's surprising to me how many people miss that.

Anders couldn't have made his intentions more clear.

People are too busy hating the Chantry because it reminds them of real world religion and authority.

Let those of us who hate the Chantry speak for ourselves, thank you.  For myself, it's more that it reminds me of real world religio-political corruption and the harm it causes in the world.  It's not quite so simple as hating religion for the sake of hating religion.  

Modifié par Silfren, 24 mai 2011 - 09:31 .

[Silfren]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Well it's not nice he blew up the chantry, when it pretty much had nothing to do with meredith.
Tho i do dislike the way mages are treated.

.....The Chantry had EVERYTHING to do with Meredith!

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

What was she supposed to do? (and going back to why Meredith was appointed is a whole other story)

Let's hear what action Elthina was supposed to take.  As I've said, I fully expect answers to fall along the lines of bias each of us has to who is right or wrong in this matter.

This has already been addressed once in the other forum where you posed the same question, and it no more fell under your expectations then than it will now.  You're presuming that answers will always fall under "She didn't support my side" but thus far that has NOT been the case.  Your own bias is forcing you to interpret other people's responses as bias even when their actual words reflect otherwise.  It's hysterical, really.

Elthina didn't have to take sides.  She could have very easily maintained the status quo--which would have put her on the side of the templars--while still requiring her knight-commander and templars to abide by Chantry law.  I ask again, given that the Chantry creates the laws the templars exist to follow, how is it that expecting Elthina to uphold those laws is an unfair expectation?  

She could have removed Meredith.  If she could not, she could have appealed to the Divine for assistance in doing so.  If she felt she was unable to fulfill her job obligations, she could have stepped aside in favor of someone else.  She could have done any number of things that had nothing to do with taking sides and everything to do with having a Chantry-appointed and authorized military force actually adhere to Chantry law.  

Tell me how this involves getting pissy over Elthina not taking MY side, given I'm pro-mage but would not have been anywhere near as disgusted with her if she'd just been doing her damn job requirements.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

After Petrice gets knocked off in the Chantry I'm pretty sure as she pauses on the stairway with Petrice the pin cusion on the ground she ask to see both the 1st enchanter and the KC.

She tells Hawke to bring the Viscount.  IIRC, nothing whatsoever is said about Orsino or Meredith.  Also, Elthina tries to use Hawke to convince Sister Nightengale that an Exalted March is not necessary, but she gives no indication that she has any confidence in her own ability to convince the Divine of the same.  I think you maybe should replay these scenes you keep referencing again, because I'm fairly sure they DON'T say what you think they do.

[Rifneno]

rak72 wrote...

lobi wrote...

MassFrost wrote...

I was happy in that it allowed me to have a reason to kill him immediately after. Does that count?

I really wanted the murder knife when he pointlessly killed that poor little tranquil guy. 

This.  There should have been a way to allow us to turn him into the Templars there.  My hawke wasn't down with butchering a bunch of Templars in the chantry that were just trying to protect the city from a dagerous Apostate.  I would have turned him over & ransaced his clinic for the map.

Edit - Then let us have Cullen as a comanion instead of the Unibomber.  Mabe have Cullen with a copy of a map given to him by the warden.

It's incredible that people so epicly miss the point of that entire quest.  It's not very subtle about the fact it's to show you what a monsterous, horrible thing tranquility is.  The guy begs you to kill him.  And people talk about "killing the poor tranquil guy?"  WHAT?!  WHAT?!  My God!  Are you people playing the same game as the rest of us?!  Do you guys protest outside the theater where Jaws is playing and protest about them hurting that poor innocent shark?

Addai67 wrote...

I thought it was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. Helping mages? More like helping them get dead. He just validated every horror story told to every child in Thedas about mages.

Did you happen to watch the ending?

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I thought it was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. Helping mages? More like helping them get dead. He just validated every horror story told to every child in Thedas about mages.

Did you happen to watch the ending?

Your point?

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...
Why would she have had to take sides?  Would it have been taking sides to require Meredith to abide by Chantry law?  Would putting a stop to the templar abuses have been taking sides?

Besides Elthina's personal stance, which is that clergy should be apolitical, Meredith is the de facto power in Kirkwall even in act 1.  She's the police force and after act 2, all of the civil government.  The only one with enough authority to remove Meredith is the Divine in Val Royeux, and Elthina is trying not to draw the Divine's gaze because the Divine is already looking into an Exalted March.  So Elthina sees the status quo as a necessary evil, given that all civil authority in Kirkwall has broken down and calling on the Divine would lead to occupation of the city and likely a lot of bloodshed.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 mai 2011 - 10:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
The only one with enough authority to remove Meredith is the Divine in Val Royeux, and Elthina is trying not to draw the Divine's gaze because the Divine is already looking into an Exalted March. 

So for 7 years, the hag still did not realize what was going on? Wouldn't her gaze already be on an unstable and critical polity, where we know that the gallows also house the mages from Starkhaven (it's the biggest Circle IIRC)? And that the Templars usurped power a few years back?

Yea, the real incompetence and idiocy doesn't stem from Elthina, though she is very useless. It's the Divine.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 10:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Vilegrim wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

It was not.

The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

[KateKane]

 Am I happy about the bulk of my decisions in the third act being rendered totally meaningless? Am I happy that the best characters from Awakening were completely destroyed?
Not particularly.

I did enjoy killing Anders, though.
It was really a mercy kill. Now the writers can't ruin him anymore.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Then an Exalted March is entirely warranted... against the templars. Even for its own self-interest, the Chantry really shouldn't just let this go (as seen when the templars rebel en masse).

[Silfren]

rak72 wrote...

even if you thought Elthina was sucky at her job, it doesn't make it right to murder her and everyone standining in a 200 yard radius of her. Anders is a greasy terrorist pig.

Pretending that Elthina was just sucky at her job, as if that's the end of the matter, is disingenuous.  We're not talking about a merchant refusing to sell their goods, but a Grand Cleric refusing to force her knight-commander and templars to follow Chantry law.  By her inaction she is permitting them to commit horrible abuses. As long as she refuses to act against it, she might as well be giving it her explicit stamp of approval; as long as the abuses continue to happen, there's no practical difference to the mages whether she's simply allowing it through her passivity or outright promoting it.

[Silfren]

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why would she have had to take sides?  Would it have been taking sides to require Meredith to abide by Chantry law?  Would putting a stop to the templar abuses have been taking sides?

Besides Elthina's personal stance, which is that clergy should be apolitical, Meredith is the de facto power in Kirkwall even in act 1.  She's the police force and after act 2, all of the civil government.  The only one with enough authority to remove Meredith is the Divine in Val Royeux, and Elthina is trying not to draw the Divine's gaze because the Divine is already looking into an Exalted March.  So Elthina sees the status quo as a necessary evil, given that all civil authority in Kirkwall has broken down and calling on the Divine would lead to occupation of the city and likely a lot of bloodshed.

....And if that's true, then it just makes Elthina all the more complicit and deserving of death.  The mages were being raped and tortured and made Tranquil for no reason, for mercy's sake.  It is NOT okay to defend those crimes as a necessary evil.

Even so, Elthina could very easily have pointed out to the Divine that Meredith and her templars were the cause of the strife in Kirkwall, and explained that removing Meredith would likely make an Exalted March unnecessary.  So I don't buy it as an excuse anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Then an Exalted March is entirely warranted... against the templars. Even for its own self-interest, the Chantry really shouldn't just let this go (as seen when the templars rebel en masse).

They don't need it, they have seekers.

I highly doubt Templars would follow Meredith against the Chantry. I'd be surprised if any Templar is impressed with that pile of fail enough to defy the Chantry.

[KateKane]

Silfren wrote...

rak72 wrote...

even if you thought Elthina was sucky at her job, it doesn't make it right to murder her and everyone standining in a 200 yard radius of her. Anders is a greasy terrorist pig.

Pretending that Elthina was just sucky at her job, as if that's the end of the matter, is disingenuous.  We're not talking about a merchant refusing to sell their goods, but a Grand Cleric refusing to force her knight-commander and templars to follow Chantry law.  By her inaction she is permitting them to commit horrible abuses. As long as she refuses to act against it, she might as well be giving it her explicit stamp of approval; as long as the abuses continue to happen, there's no practical difference to the mages whether she's simply allowing it through her passivity or outright promoting it.

That doesn't really excuse the whole "dozens if not hundreds of innocents were surely killed by the blast" thing. Anders is nothing more than a selfish, insane terrorist. Also an abomination.

And you know what? Meredith was absolutely right. All but a scant few mages you encounter practice blood magic.
Even the First Enchanter.
For the saftey of the people of Kirkwall, and even just in the name of upholding the law, the mages got exactly what they deserved throughout the entire game.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Then an Exalted March is entirely warranted... against the templars. Even for its own self-interest, the Chantry really shouldn't just let this go (as seen when the templars rebel en masse).

They don't need it, they have seekers.

I highly doubt Templars would follow Meredith against the Chantry. I'd be surprised if any Templar is impressed with that pile of fail enough to defy the Chantry.

The fact that the leadership was impressed enough with her to promote her that high is extremely disturbing; yes, don't do anything about her horrible emotional scars except foster the behavior that stems from them!
Of course, the Seekers hardly seem better, judging by Leliana's mission. Maybe we'll get to assassinate the Divine in DA3.