1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeyadbadrawy]

frankly, i hated anders the moment he stepped into kirkwall. he used to be awesome in awakening when he was carefree and happy, now he is essential in my group and i just feel gloomy while playing with him. and after that thing he did in act 3 i killed him straight away. he is right about the chantry and the templars, but not everything! remember that Orsino is also to blame, he is after all the reason hawke's mother is dead. meredith was right all along! but she was doing it the wrong way.
(GAH, IM SO CONFUSED)
i am starting my playthrough which i will import to da3 and i have absolutely no idea who to pick! both are wrong, both are evil, both want to kill me in the end.
you know what, the chantry is at fault, not mages or templars. the chantry let them be and that caused them to fight. anders was right after all.
wow, i just brainstormed my ideas in this comment. i need to comment more often.=D

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is basically what I stated, and bolded for your convenience.

Ah, but see, you didn't explicitly write that out word-for-word, so you left it open for interpretation, so even though most people who've been following the discussion will know precisely what you're talking about, you're arguing with the sort of person who likes to nitpick and play games with language that ignores context and assumes most people aren't capable of or willing to grasp nuance. :innocent:

[Ryzaki]

@the OP: Anders' decision now that I think about it does make me happy. It means I can finally see how much mages aren't a threat (or how much they are). How many of them are willing to revert to the forbidden when they feel enough need, how many of them are willing to use bloodmagic to control other people to get just a little ahead. To see how fast it takes for mages to start using and fighting with one another or to seperate into segements. Or if not that to see just who and what they decide to rally behind.  

And more interestingly to see how they win and how fast that us vs them mentality that the resolutionists has end up biting them in the ass. 

And if they do win how the populace treats them. Them welcoming mages back with open arms isn't likely. I would love to see some post war tension like the Jim Crow laws where mages are forbidden from certain areas and certain jobs and end up in their own little areas with non-mages being as racist towards them as they are the elves. Maybe DA4 can be set as a mage or sibling of a mage in one of those segregated areas. I don't see mages as likely to be beaten or imprisoned wrongly rather very few will want to associate with them for fear of what they could do. A bunch of social pariahs given the worst and dangerous jobs only made bearable because of their magic use. 

Then of course with the working parties having a dislike of them because of the magic the mages wielding possibly leading to them doing the jobs better than the non-mages. More and more tension probably with mages being falsely accused of bloodmagic and being laid at a prejudice jury's feet. With a higher chance of being imprisoned for a longer time than a non-mage who did the same thing. (well...except bloodmagic. BM would just end up with them hanged.) 

Good old oppression. Hitting you even when you think you're free. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juin 2011 - 11:47 .

[GavrielKay]

*blink*

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Her templars choosing to abuse their powers (and if the mages didnt' speak up how was she to help them?) doesn't mean she wasn't doing her job and keeping the mages in check. 

Part of Meredith's job is keeping her templars in check and preventing them from breaking Chantry law.  But the mages aren't to be held responsible for not speaking up, given they were rather clearly in an environment where they weren't made to feel that speaking out was a safe thing to do.  But this presumes that Meredith was completely unaware of how abusive her templars were being, and that's just laughable. 

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...
The idea that religions are inherently more rigid and backward is, in my view, a holdover from the Enlightenment smarty pants who wanted to believe themselves smarter and all-around better than the knuckle-draggers who went before them, and to believe that society is on an inevitable march towards glorious progress.

It's a bit jaundiced as well to assume that someone who disagrees with the way religion likes to consider itself as the source of "Truth ™" must be some snootier-than-thou intellectual.

Not all progress is glorious, but halting all progress is worse.  I think the modern world, with its pollution, terrorism and vague threat of nuclear holocaust is still overall a better place than 13th century England.  I like access to modern medicine, vast amounts of data at my fingertips and a significantly longer life expectancy than the dark ages even dreamed of.

I certainly wouldn't want to live in a world like Thedas.

[Silfren]

Addai67 wrote...


People are assuming that religions are inherently more unchanging- more "dogmatic"- than other human groupings/ organizations, and that's not true.  Human beings tend to hang on to our prejudices, but that's the case no matter where they come from.

More.  Key word there.  You said it yourself.  You followed it with a general statement that human beings tend to hang on to our prejudices regardless of where those prejudices originate, which is true, but the point as you yourself stated in the first bit of that quote is that religions especially are MORE unchanging and prone to clinging to dogma.  That humans have an innate tendency to be stubbornly resistant to change doesn't alter the fact that religious institutions in particular tend to be even more obnoxiously resistant to change than any other human endeavor.  And in particular, religion has an inherent tendency to obstinately resist change even when it is faced with the prospect of losing relevance and dying if it does not.  The institution the Chantry is rather heavily based on is notorious for this.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
People are assuming that religions are inherently more unchanging- more "dogmatic"- than other human groupings/ organizations, and that's not true.  Human beings tend to hang on to our prejudices, but that's the case no matter where they come from.

Religions are more inherently unchanging.  Their whole basis revolves around having some sort of higher truth handed down from an infalible source.  Every case of evolving relgion I've ever heard of has been inflicted on the religion, not come about from self-scrutiny.  An outside force or loss of membership due to outside influence is always part of revising doctrine.

Other forms of human society do not rely on having any kind of ultimate truth and can therefore simply rethink things when it is necessary or advantageous.

1st bolded part, funny, that sounds just like the Arishok and the Qun.  I find it interesting that on these forums everyone and their dog hates the Chantry and yet heaps praise on the Arishok and the Qun.

2nd bolded part, we don't want to get into politics on these forums but more and more these days many people will have one politicla view and will not change it no matter how blatantly obivious that their party is very wrong in an instance.  Politics has become religion in may parts of the world.

Everyone?  I hate the Chantry, but I've never once heaped praise on either the Arishok or the Qun, and frankly I haven't seen anyone else doing it either, especially not people who state their position as being anti-Chantry.

[Ryzaki]

Someone will take that wrong. Nevermind. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 12:08 .

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...


I've seen no clear evidence that the Chantry does preach that magic is a curse.  It's clearly common belief, particularly among Templars, but it's not in what we've seen of the Chant of Light, or any of the relevant codexes written from a Chantry point of view.

I'll have to do some digging, but I am fairly certain there are several codices written from Chantry sources (Divines and Sisters) that refer to magic as a curse.  Whether such is literally, explicitly codified in the Chant of Light is irrelevant, because surely it's understood that not every aspect of a religion's codified dogma comes directly from its Scriptures.  There doesn't have to be a single written word by Andraste anywhere about magic being a curse for that to be the Chantry's official teaching.  

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
Part of Meredith's job is keeping her templars in check and preventing them from breaking Chantry law.  But the mages aren't to be held responsible for not speaking up, given they were rather clearly in an environment where they weren't made to feel that speaking out was a safe thing to do.  But this presumes that Meredith was completely unaware of how abusive her templars were being, and that's just laughable. 

It's been mentioned before by myself and others, but the mere fact that the "Tranquil Solution" was propsed should have launched quite the investigation.  Such willingness on the part of a high ranking Templar to go against Chantry doctrine should have been a big clue that something was wrong.  Even if the investigation turned up lovely facts like above average rates of misconduct among the mages.  Without that, the player can only assume that Meredith and Elthina weren't concerned about why such a thing would be proposed.  In the absense of anything resembling fallout from the proposal, we can only assume that the powers that be were incompetent at best, or sympathetic to it at worst.

As far as the actual Right of Annulment:  Several people have argued that the danger to the populace from opposing Meredith and just letting the mages escape is worse overall than killing the innocent mages along with the bad ones.  I wonder what justifies that thought.  We know there are hundreds of mages in the circle.  Probably many hundreds since it is actually two circles combined (Kirkwall + Starkhaven).

I do believe that most of the circle mages are innocent.  Seriously, if most of say, 300, mages were blood mages or dealing in demons - the circle would have imploded all by itself long before the end game.

So you've got 300ish certain deaths vs. some unknown number of civilian deaths.  And it's not like those escaping mages are all just waiting for their oppotunity to go a-bomb on the citizens of Kirkwall.  Most of them are just going to run for the hills and hope to avoid re-capture.  I think it can be argued that the greater overall saving of lives comes from protecting the mages.

[Silfren]

Virginian wrote...

Elthinia was a set on the fence with it firmly shoved up her rear type that would do nothing even if it meant saving lives. She was warned to leave and ignored it. She deserved her fate.

As for blowing up the Chantry regardles of Elthinia, the Chantry is organized religion it deserves to be destroyed. The members of the Chantry support oppression and slavery and actively engage in those acts they deserve nothing less than death from the slowest, cruelest, and most painful way possible.

Wow.  Even I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that the Chantry deserves to be blown up simply for being an organized religion.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...
The mages aren't to blame for not speaking up? 

We don't know if any mages speak up or not.  If the first few who complained went from being raped every night to being Tranquiled, the reports would probably slow down a bit.  It's just as likely that they are stifling the reports of abuse as that there arent any.

We are told in game that there are more Tranquil than usual in the Gallows these days.  We know that Elthina has some issues with Meredith's methods.  We know that someone in the Gallows walks around saying she'll get 30 lashes for talking to people.  It doesn't appear to be a secret that some iffy things are going on.  Meredith and Elthina would have to be completely daft to deny soemthing's amiss.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The first two you mentioned had no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall, and the latter kidnapped Hawke's sibling or love interest along with the renegade templars.[/quote]

And neither did those mages with helpful bloodmagic that you mentioned. 

Both Alain and Grace do harm to others. They're not innocent. [/quote]

Grace is an abomination, and Alain was raped by templars and sided with Thrask to remove a dictator from power.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Personally, if templars are going to carry out genocide against the innocent because of the actions of an apostate, I see no reason not to stop them.[/quote]

That's your prerogative. 

Just like mine is to join in. [/quote]

I see no reason to side with Knight-Commander Meredith over the mages. I have no incentive to murder hundreds of innocent men, women, and children to appease the mob.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Which is basically what I stated, and bolded for your convenience.[/quote]

True. The RoA while justified was called for the wrong reasons. I don't blame Meredith for taking the opportunity Anders laid at her feet though. [/quote]

It's not justified. The opinion of a mentally unbalanced Knight-Commander who became a dictator over the city-state to the point where civilians, nobles, mages, and even her own templars wanted to remove her from power doesn't convince me that hundreds of mages should be murdered.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
That makes no sense; let's condemn the mages to death in the Circle of Kirkwall because there are blood mage antagonists outside the Circle of Kirkwall?[/quote]

Oh so I suppose Orsino, Grace and Alain aren't circle mages? [/quote]

So, out of hundreds of men, women, and children, you think they should all be executed because of three people? One who is a dead abomination at the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, and another who is a rape victim?

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

I condemned them to death because there was bloodmages *everywhere* in the circle and out. [/quote]

I didn't realize game mechanics qualified as proof. I'd imagine the ability to appear from thin air would be quite the concern for people throughout Kirkwall then.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

The whole quest with Thrask and Grace makes that apparent. [/quote]

"Best Served Cold" makes it apparent that mages and templars were willing to work together to remove Meredith.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not when her actions are producting antagonists like Huon and Evelina out of formerly sane mages.[/quote]

What makes you say they were formly sane? [/quote]

The fact that Evelina wasn't an abomination when we met her in Act II and the fact that Huon wasn't murdering people left and right, since his wife was still alive before she reunited with her mentally unbalanced husband.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith helped put herself in a position of authority and power over the people.[/quote]

Indeed she did. That doesn't mean she wasn't keeping them safe. [/quote]

That must explain why Aveline and her guards had to protect the civilians from a situation Meredith caused when she ordered the templars to kill the mages, and didn't once consider protecting the people of Kirkwall during this event.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why she orders the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children, and why she endangers the lives of civilians by having her templars fighting mages in the streets.[/quote]

Hundreds? We have no way of  knowing how many mages were in thecircle (like with how many people were in the Chantry). [/quote]

Besides the Genitivi written codex that notes that there are hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall Circle prior to the Starkhaven Circle being burned down, and the mages from that respective Circle being transferred to Kirkwall.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

As for endangering civilians the mages were the ones who weren't in the circle in the first place. And again bloodmages wouldn't hesitate to cause damage in the city. So it is best they were taken out [/quote]

You forget the part where Meredith endangered everyone in Kirkwall by ordering a genocide against the Circle mages for an act an apostate was responsible for.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Meredith's Circle of Kirkwall lead to the rape, torture, murder, and tranquility of many, I don't see how you can support such a claim.[/quote]

Her templars choosing to abuse their powers (and if the mages didnt' speak up how was she to help them?) doesn't mean she wasn't doing her job and keeping the mages in check. [/quote]

It means that Meredith wasn't doing her job if abuses of authority are transpiring over the course of seven years without correction. And since Hawke gets a quest in Act III where the templars try to murder a woman for feeding her tortured and starved mage relative, I have little sympathy for Meredith's role as Kirkwall's despot.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We have little information on how bad things are between the templars and the mages, and we can't say the two are only "glaring across the room at each other" when Varric points out that it's put Thedas on the brink of war.[/quote] 

...the BRINK of war. I'm pretty sure if there was massive fighting there would already be a war.  

Ah well. I'm not gonna agree. Innocent mages were killed in the RoA but there's enough guilty ones in there for me to do it. [/quote]

In other words, your speculation isn't proof.

[Ryzaki]

My speculation?

Yes those bloodmages attacking me was all my imagination then.  

GavrielKay wrote...

We don't know if any mages speak up or not.  If the first few who complained went from being raped every night to being Tranquiled, the reports would probably slow down a bit.  It's just as likely that they are stifling the reports of abuse as that there arent any.

We are told in game that there are more Tranquil than usual in the Gallows these days.  We know that Elthina has some issues with Meredith's methods.  We know that someone in the Gallows walks around saying she'll get 30 lashes for talking to people.  It doesn't appear to be a secret that some iffy things are going on.  Meredith and Elthina would have to be completely daft to deny soemthing's amiss.

 

That's my issue. How can Meredith know if the inforation isnt going to her? And I *highly* doubt Orsino wouldn't have wentt runnin to the Grand Cleric if he was told such information. 

That doesn't equal rape though. Meredith was harsh on the mages. She probably would see such things as fine. That doesn't mean she condoned rape. 
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 12:21 .

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...
The mages aren't to blame for not speaking up? 

I like how you ask that question while completely ignoring the part of my post that would have made it unnecessary to ask at all.  The mages are OBVIOUSLY in an environment where they're not going to feel that speaking out is the safe thing to do.  Or did you miss the bit about Alain saying that he's raped every night by Ser Karras threatened repercussions if he reports it?  But even without that evidence, it shouldn't need to be spelled out that with the rampant and egregious abuses going on, mages aren't going to feel that they can safely report these abuses without being punished for it.  How many thousands of real world examples do we have of a group of marginalized people being bullied into silence?

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's my issue. How can Meredith know if the inforation isnt going to her? And I *highly* doubt Orsino wouldn't have wentt runnin to the Grand Cleric if he was told such information. 

That doesn't equal rape though. Meredith was harsh on the mages. She probably would see such things as fine. That doesn't mean she condoned rape. 
 

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a nifty codex entry documenting the complaints to Meredith or Elthina.  I role play it that my Hawke is telling Elthina everything she finds out (since we have access to Elthina before the last 3 year break) and thus it is known.  The fact that Hawke hears this stuff in game and has no ability to run to Meredith or Cullen and spill all the beans is just crazy.  Though, when we can run to Cullen and tell him about Anders being up to no good, it doesn't change things, so perhaps it's just as well.  At least if I can't do it, I can't rail about it having no affect on the game.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

Virginian wrote...

Elthinia was a set on the fence with it firmly shoved up her rear type that would do nothing even if it meant saving lives. She was warned to leave and ignored it. She deserved her fate.

As for blowing up the Chantry regardles of Elthinia, the Chantry is organized religion it deserves to be destroyed. The members of the Chantry support oppression and slavery and actively engage in those acts they deserve nothing less than death from the slowest, cruelest, and most painful way possible.

Wow.  Even I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that the Chantry deserves to be blown up simply for being an organized religion.

I kinda liked that post.  It made me feel more moderate 

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The mages aren't to blame for not speaking up? 

I like how you ask that question while completely ignoring the part of my post that would have made it unnecessary to ask at all.  The mages are OBVIOUSLY in an environment where they're not going to feel that speaking out is the safe thing to do.  Or did you miss the bit about Alain saying that he's raped every night by Ser Karras threatened repercussions if he reports it?  But even without that evidence, it shouldn't need to be spelled out that with the rampant and egregious abuses going on, mages aren't going to feel that they can safely report these abuses without being punished for it.  How many thousands of real world examples do we have of a group of marginalized people being bullied into silence?

 

And I love how you responded to something I edited out. 

Regardless I'm not going to get into it because the last thing I want is people jumping down my throat for it. 

So I'm gonna drop it as you dropped the CW issue. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 12:32 .

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a nifty codex entry documenting the complaints to Meredith or Elthina.  I role play it that my Hawke is telling Elthina everything she finds out (since we have access to Elthina before the last 3 year break) and thus it is known.  The fact that Hawke hears this stuff in game and has no ability to run to Meredith or Cullen and spill all the beans is just crazy.  Though, when we can run to Cullen and tell him about Anders being up to no good, it doesn't change things, so perhaps it's just as well.  At least if I can't do it, I can't rail about it having no affect on the game.

 

Which really is why I find it hard to believe there was any complaints. Orsino would not sit on that information. There's just no way. If anything he'd be screaming that from the highest hilltops. 

And yeah agreed. I rather have no chance to say anything than have Cullen's "I'll look into it." nonsense. Though that wouldn't be so bad in that scenario. 

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yes those bloodmages attacking me was all my imagination then. 
 

Oh they were in the game sure enough.  But there weren't hundreds of them.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Yes those bloodmages attacking me was all my imagination then. 
 

Oh they were in the game sure enough.  But there weren't hundreds of them.

 

And I never claimed that to be the case. I said they were everywhere. And indeed they were. Hightown, lowtown, the docks, I can recall fighting/running into them everywhere except the Gallows, The deep roads and the Chantry. (and obviously people's homes). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 12:37 .

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Which really is why I find it hard to believe there was any complaints. Orsino would not sit on that information. There's just no way. If anything he'd be screaming that from the highest hilltops. 

Well, he does stand in the square and complain about Meredith to her face.

Meredith and Elthina both know about the Tranquil Solution - so they know something pretty big could be going on.  Elthina says she doesn't approve of Meredith's methods, so she must know something that gives her pause.  Either of those things should spawn an investigation to figure out what's up in the circle. 

Also, a number of Templars are upset enough at Meredith to participate in what may be the first Templar/mage alliance to overthrow a KC.

It really doesn't seem to be a secret that very bad things are going on in Kirkwall.  Even if Meredith isn't getting daily reports with a list of number of mages raped vs. whipped.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

My speculation?

Yes those bloodmages attacking me was all my imagination then.  

Yes, it's your speculation that the Right of Annulment was warranted when there's no proof it was justified, particularly when the person who invoked it mentions she's doing so to appease the mob.

As for antagonists, we face many of them outside the Gallows, and most of them have no known affiliation with the Kirkwall Circle. I see no reason to condemn an entire population to execution any more than one should kill every dwarf in Kirkwall because of the "waves" of carta members we can face as Hawke.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
Well, he does stand in the square and complain about Meredith to her face.

Meredith and Elthina both know about the Tranquil Solution - so they know something pretty big could be going on.  Elthina says she doesn't approve of Meredith's methods, so she must know something that gives her pause.  Either of those things should spawn an investigation to figure out what's up in the circle. 

Also, a number of Templars are upset enough at Meredith to participate in what may be the first Templar/mage alliance to overthrow a KC.

It really doesn't seem to be a secret that very bad things are going on in Kirkwall.  Even if Meredith isn't getting daily reports with a list of number of mages raped vs. whipped.

 

And for some odd reason the templar abuses aren't part of his complaints. 

I'm pretty sure Elthina knows about the increase in tranquilities. Probably assumes its Meredith's paranoia. And Meredih's own mental state makes me think she feels that Alrik was probably tranquiling potential bloodmages (doesn't help that every apostate to her is a bloodmage). It should but people in Kirkwall sit on their hands. (Hi Cullen.) And it helps for them to kick the idiot ball around. 

Indeed. Which to me suggests that she mayhave brushed off their concerns and attempts to tell her about tbe abuses. That or they were sick of her ignoring them while she played Vicount. 

Oh I doubt it. But if Kerass was so concerned about Alain reporting him to threaten him (and not to merely say "ha. like anyone cares!") suggests to me that someone *did* care and it would've been an issue if it got to the right ears.