1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Baconer wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
Using blood magic without demons is like using an H-bomb without nuclear scientists.  You don't NEED an expert to use blood magic... but it isn't like you can go to the 'blood magic' section of the circle library and learn how to raise the dead.  To bring it back to the H-bomb analogy, you aren't going to find the equations for urianium enrichment on the internet.

The knowledge for blood magic is restricted.  I'm not sure, but think think the First Enchanter may know a bit of blood magic.  And the Wardens certianly know some of it... but Blood Magic is simply not accessable to most mages (and we are talking the vast majority here) without demons.

Its just not going to happen.

Or, you know, be taught by an existing blood mage, or read about it from a tome (Jowan). But I guess that would be too simple.

I agree with The Baconer .

Blood Magic is not tought in the circle.  So a circle mage should not have option number one.  There is no blood mage to learn from.  Option number two may be true if, like I said, the First Enchanter or some such is given access to restricted knowledge.  This is an area I'm a bit murky with.

But outside the circle there is even LESS chance for a mage to learn blood magic.  Magical knowledge outside the circle is illeagal.  Thus, rare.

In all cases the chance one would run across blood magic without the help of demons is very, very, slim.

So, since blood magic is not tought in the circle and you can't find it leagally anywhere else... how does one aquire it?  Demons.  It allways comes back to demons.

Ok, let's list a number of facts here:

• Demons can teach (powerful) blood magic.
• Mages can realise the power inherent in their own blood just by cutting themselves.
• Just realising there is power in their blood doesn't mean they will suddenly become an awesomely powered blood mage, any more than having access to the Fade automatically makes them an awesomely powered regular mage.
• Jowan, with little research or experience, overpowered a number of templars and escaped the Circle.
• You don't need a demon's help to become powerful enough to be incredibly dangerous.
• There have been blood mages in Fereldan and Free Marches Circles. There is no reason why they couldn't teach others, and try to keep the lessons hidden.
• There are blood magic apostates. They're hard to miss in Kirkwall, and there were plenty in Ferelden. Even the Mage's Collective might have contacts. I'm sure someone who wanted to learn could find a teacher and learn in secret.
• Tevinter mages are prolific blood mages. I'm sure they can quite easily pass along their knowledge without demons chipping in.

Suffice to say, I disagree that demons are the most prevalent means of learning blood magic.

I think they are the *fastest* way, but not the only way. And since most mages are well aware that demons are dangerous, they would probably think twice about consorting with them unless they needed a lot of power very very quickly.

[The Baconer]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Rifneno: "For that analogy to work, all blood mages would have to be demons themselves. A nuclear scientist can teach others, who in turn become nuclear scientists because of their knowledge."

Sigh. Its not a perfect analogy. I meant that the knowledge required to become a scientist that specializes in nuclear weapons technology is incredibly complex and highly RESTRICTED.

The purpose was to demonstrate how silly the notions is that one just 'stumbles' upon highly technical and restricted knowledge. Just as you don't have nuclear scientists at every university just waiting some somebody to ask them how build a nuke... you aren't going to learn blood magic by asking the First Enchanter. Or walking into a bar and going "Hey! Any blood mages in this joint?!"

The analogy works because blood mages, like the scientist I was talking about are highly sought after and regulated people. The best way to learn blood magic (or science) is to learn it the way that the mage (or scientist) did himself. Demons.

Do people honestly not see the connection? Demons give quick and easy access to POWERFUL blood magic. The one blood mage who didn't get his magic from demons (Jowan) was not even close to an untrained boy abomination. Abominations and mages that get their powers through demons are getting it from the source. If you want to be a blood mage you go to a demon. If you want to be an expert on nukes, you go to their experts.

Demons are the CLEAR experts.

Good thing in Tevinter, there are plenty of experienced blood mages around to provide safer and more thorough training in the art of Blood Magic.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Plaintiff:"People do not commit crimes without motivation. Remove the motivation and the crime will not occur."

And this actually gets to the crux of my point. Thank you. Abuse may provide a motivation but it is hardly the prevailing reason people use blood magic in my opinion. Motivation is a slippery thing to pinpoint... but lets follow my thoughts for a moment.

Why do people turn to blood magic in the first place? What, is essentially unique about blood magic? Power. Blood magic is powerful. Incredibly so. Blood mages do not need lyrium. And they can accomplish amazing feats.

Why does an abused person turn to blood magic? Because it gives them the POWER to fight back. Removing the abuse does not remove the power. And power is the motivation.

You can not solve the blood mage problem in the same way that you can not solve the problem of theft. Humans are drawn to the quick and easy. As long as blood magic is powerful there will be blood mages. And as long as demons provide quick and easy access to this power there will be abominations.

Is this a fair assertion to make?

[Nightdragon8]

From what I understand Blood magic is "Demonic magic" Instead of using Lyrium(sp?) as a catalyze they use blood. Its not necessarily "good or evil magic" but it is a rather gruesome sort of magic I mean thats alot of blood to spill. And they have a "higher risk" for turning into an abomination. The Gray Wardens allow it because its a "tool" its a "means to an end". If all the DLC is to be believed then the Darkspawn magic is completely alien to the planet. The demons don't even seem to know much about it.

Now, first off, it looks like Hawke wasn't doing anything but it was doing the hardest thing of all.. "Keeping the peace" He was preventing Maradith from bringing the full force of the templars on minor issues. While Hawke was also preventing the mages from going bat@#!& and giving them hope that he was defending them. So he was working alot harder than Anders.

Anders became "feedup" with the tension and he was the one who decided to light the fuse on the bomb that was already there. The Chantry was also trying to "keep the peace" against a woman who was so obsessed with evil that she became it. Granted the Relic Hawke found didn't help her mental state but she still choose to do what she wanted.

So in reality it wasn't fully Maradiths fualt, As I believed Varric said that there was plenty of blame to go around.

Now for the act itself, No I do not think it was the "best course of action" because there are better ways to start off a revolution.  So no I am not happy at what Anders did. I agree it was going to happen at some point.

I think what has happened in the DA world was that it became a "Us vs Them" society. Mages where locked away into a tower or prison. And was treated as if they where a disease, a disease while useful and allowed to continue to exist. So people stopped looking at them as "people" and only looked at them as a Mage.

But I can understand why they would do such a thing. A group of kids/adults would go beat the other kid up because of the fact they can use magic. and that kid/adult would be able to kill the group with no problem. Then he becomes so feared that it gets the person kicked out or turned into a Tyrant.

So sadly its to protect them as much as it is to protect everyone else. But it is only ever a "temporary" solution. to the main problem. They lose the human connection and then bad things happen from there.

So while who can argue about this and that, the real thing is they need a permanent solution, I don't think magic users are going to despair for a very long time. So would need to set up a system where the Mages are in check but are allowed to live "normal" lives. Pushing them all into a confined space no matter how large is still a prison.

What also seems to be a large issue is that the Mages are not allowed to use there magic. Which also frustrates them. In DA:O a mage said that he could use his magic to light the fire but the Templar shut him down right away.

So in reality it turned mages into "Tools" for other to use. They where pretty much no longer human at that point. So a revolution was inevitable. Its just Anders was the one who lite the fire (and caused it to explode).

But as it seems the everyone wants to discuse where or not Anders is a terrorist or freedom fighter.

The problem with such a topic is that no one is right until the last shot has been fired. Its the victors who write history. So they either Vilify him or make him a Hero.  We can't really pass judgement until what happens after the war is better or worse for society.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So you mean you can't back it up? What a surprise.

Some definitions of terrorism require it to be systematic. Or to be designed to inspire fear toward a certain group. There was nothing in Anders' attack to indicate more would be forthcoming, or that there was any sort of system  behind it.

Trying to force the mages to fight the templars by having the templars threaten the mages life isn't using fear? Banking on an paraoid woman whose fear of bloodmages abilities would cause her to anull the circle isn't using fear? 

As for Anders' attack which definition (I'd like an actual link to this) means there must be more than one attack? 

His whole speech is about his political agenda behind destroying the Chantry! It wasn't just an assassination of the Grand Cleric. It was to start a war by removing one ofthe main sources of compromise! In what place would that not be defined as terrorism? I'd really like to know. 

The definition of terrorism on m-w.com is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion." I don't have my OED with me right now, and the AHD isn't free online anymore (/sad), but to me there is nothing about Anders' attack that is "systematic."

Also, the first ever use of the term "Terrorism" was
actually describing a government using terror to control its populace (during the Reign of Terror in France in the late 1790s).
So under that definition, the Templars would be guilty of Terrorism but
Anders would not. It's an archaic definition, but the point of this
discussion was that there are some definitions of Terrorist that Anders
does not fit.

Honestly I just wish everyone would stop using the words terroism and genocide completely. They are simply not relevant in this setting. Unless you want to call Moses a terrorist for killing all the firstborn of Egypt... in which case... ok. We'll apply all terms to everything forever regadless of context.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

The Baconer wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Rifneno: "For that analogy to work, all blood mages would have to be demons themselves. A nuclear scientist can teach others, who in turn become nuclear scientists because of their knowledge."

Sigh. Its not a perfect analogy. I meant that the knowledge required to become a scientist that specializes in nuclear weapons technology is incredibly complex and highly RESTRICTED.

The purpose was to demonstrate how silly the notions is that one just 'stumbles' upon highly technical and restricted knowledge. Just as you don't have nuclear scientists at every university just waiting some somebody to ask them how build a nuke... you aren't going to learn blood magic by asking the First Enchanter. Or walking into a bar and going "Hey! Any blood mages in this joint?!"

The analogy works because blood mages, like the scientist I was talking about are highly sought after and regulated people. The best way to learn blood magic (or science) is to learn it the way that the mage (or scientist) did himself. Demons.

Do people honestly not see the connection? Demons give quick and easy access to POWERFUL blood magic. The one blood mage who didn't get his magic from demons (Jowan) was not even close to an untrained boy abomination. Abominations and mages that get their powers through demons are getting it from the source. If you want to be a blood mage you go to a demon. If you want to be an expert on nukes, you go to their experts.

Demons are the CLEAR experts.

Good thing in Tevinter, there are plenty of experienced blood mages around to provide safer and more thorough training in the art of Blood Magic.

Of course.  But we are taling about the CHANTRY and the Cirlce.  Bringing the tevinters into conversation is nopt advancing the discourse.  It is deflecting.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Shimmer_Gloom, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that demons are the undisputed masters of blood magic, and going to them for 'training' is where you can learn the most.

What we're saying is that you don't *have* to go to demons. There are experts among humans, not as good as demons perhaps, but still pretty bloody powerful if you'll excuse the pun.

And learning from another mage, as opposed to a demon, won't get you possessed.

Edit: There are also written records amongst humans, and the possibility to learn by accident. Again not as awesome as getting it straight from the demon's mouth, but still powerful if you take Jowan as an example.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Shimmer_Gloom, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that demons are the undisputed masters of blood magic, and going to them for 'training' is where you can learn the most.

What we're saying is that you don't *have* to go to demons. There are experts among humans, not as good as demons perhaps, but still pretty bloody powerful if you'll excuse the pun.

And learning from another mage, as opposed to a demon, won't get you possessed.

I agree.  But the point was that you won't find these people in a Ferelden or Free Marsh circle.  And likely not outside either.

And... now I've been arguing about this for so long I forgot why...

[Ryzaki]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The definition of terrorism on m-w.com is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion." I don't have my OED with me right now, and the AHD isn't free online anymore (/sad), but to me there is nothing about Anders' attack that is "systematic."

 

Anders' attack wasn't planned?  You joking? Systematic means PLANNED. Deliberate. It can *also* mean regular. But that's not the only definition.  

• 
  a methodical; done
  or conceived according to
  a plan or system.
  b (of a person etc.) acting according to a system; methodical (a systematic administrator).
• Of or pertaining to biological classification (a systematic botanist).
• Regular, deliberate
  (a systematic liar).

Also, the first ever use of the term "Terrorism" was
actually describing a government using terror to control its populace (during the Reign of Terror in France in the late 1790s).
So under that definition, the Templars would be guilty of Terrorism but
Anders would not. It's an archaic definition, but the point of this
discussion was that there are some definitions of Terrorist that Anders
does not fit.

Honestly I just wish everyone would stop using the words terroism and genocide completely. They are simply not relevant in this setting. Unless you want to call Moses a terrorist for killing all the firstborn of Egypt... in which case... ok. We'll apply all terms to everything forever regadless of context.

 

Interesting. But the definition is archanic but the point stands it is *a* definition he doesn't fit. So I concede the point. I wonder if I can find a defintion of genocide the RoA doesn't fit. 

My issue is saying one is okay (genocide) but the other is totally wrong (terrorist). SWeet I found one. The mages aren't a race or a nation. So they don't fit certain defintions of genocide. Here's the link. And even the offical UN definition doesn't suit mages because it says "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." The mages aren't a ethical, racial, religious or national group. (especially not considering some mages are ELVES and totally different species). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[The Baconer]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
Of course.  But we are taling about the CHANTRY and the Cirlce.  Bringing the tevinters into conversation is nopt advancing the discourse.  It is deflecting.

No, I was confronting the statement that Demons being the "only" source of blood magic, a statement that has already been debunked. Me pushing Tevinter into arguements is merely a reaction to the calls of needing a better system, when Thedas has an already existing one.

Modifié par The Baconer, 04 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Oh yeah. Here it was. "It was the thin veil, the thing that keeps the demons from interacting with mages, that led to the rampant blood mage problem in Kirkwall."

That was my point lol. So. Yes. Fixing the abuse by Templers does not fix the veil. And it does not make blood magic via Demons less powerful. This is my point. Go.

[The Baconer]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Oh yeah. Here it was. "It was the thin veil, the thing that keeps the demons from interacting with mages, that led to the rampant blood mage problem in Kirkwall."

That was my point lol. So. Yes. Fixing the abuse by Templers does not fix the veil. And it does not make blood magic via Demons less powerful. This is my point. Go.

I guess they could have started by not building a Circle in Kirkwall, but I know Chantry-governed nations aren't ones for academic foresight, so I'll let it slide.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Oh yeah. Here it was. "It was the thin veil, the thing that keeps the demons from interacting with mages, that led to the rampant blood mage problem in Kirkwall."

That was my point lol. So. Yes. Fixing the abuse by Templers does not fix the veil. And it does not make blood magic via Demons less powerful. This is my point. Go.

Aha, the enigma of Kirkwall I see where you're coming from.

Yes...that city is not the best place for a Circle of Magi. XD Too bad Hawke couldn't bring that information up ANYWHERE.

[Giggles_Manically]

Meredith:
Ah yes "the thinning veil of Kirkwall" the supposed phenomenon that drives people crazy and lets demons through.
Ah we have dismissed those claims.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Plaintiff:"People do not commit crimes without motivation. Remove the motivation and the crime will not occur."

And this actually gets to the crux of my point. Thank you. Abuse may provide a motivation but it is hardly the prevailing reason people use blood magic in my opinion. Motivation is a slippery thing to pinpoint... but lets follow my thoughts for a moment.

Why do people turn to blood magic in the first place? What, is essentially unique about blood magic? Power. Blood magic is powerful. Incredibly so. Blood mages do not need lyrium. And they can accomplish amazing feats.

Why does an abused person turn to blood magic? Because it gives them the POWER to fight back. Removing the abuse does not remove the power. And power is the motivation.

You can not solve the blood mage problem in the same way that you can not solve the problem of theft. Humans are drawn to the quick and easy. As long as blood magic is powerful there will be blood mages. And as long as demons provide quick and easy access to this power there will be abominations.

Is this a fair assertion to make?

\\

You're putting Blood magic in a strange category. All it is is a particularly efficient form of murder. It's true, we can't solve the problem of blood magic in the same way we can't solve the problem of murder. No matter how awesome our society is, some people will just murder people. And you can murder a LOT of people without blood magic. My Warden and my Hawke and Isabella and Varric and pretty much everyone in my party ever have killed far more people than the average blood mage.

I can assume that you've played Mass Effect. Look at Jack. Say I train a thousand children in the same way that Jack is trained, (biotic or not), drugging them and classically conditioning them to enjoy violence. Say those kids all escape... you can't tell me that all those kids are out murdering people because humans will always choose to commit murder, because it is an easy way to get what you want. Maybe one of those thousand kids would have become a murderer naturally, but because of my training, all 1000 of them are killers.

There are very few human problems that can be solved 100% by taking away the leading causes, sure. But if we put cocaine in the drinking water, and cocaine use rose dramatically, you can't just say "well, you'll never stop cocaine addiction by taking it out of the drinking water." True, taking it out of the drinking water won't completely eliminate its use. BUT IT WILL HELP.

And if you have free mages about, mages whose continued freedom is dependent on eliminating mages who do blood magic, guess what? It'll be a lot easier to eliminate mages who do blood magic, because other mages will actively be hunting them.

[Ryzaki]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Oh yeah. Here it was. "It was the thin veil, the thing that keeps the demons from interacting with mages, that led to the rampant blood mage problem in Kirkwall."

That was my point lol. So. Yes. Fixing the abuse by Templers does not fix the veil. And it does not make blood magic via Demons less powerful. This is my point. Go.

Aha, the enigma of Kirkwall I see where you're coming from.

Yes...that city is not the best place for a Circle of Magi. XD Too bad Hawke couldn't bring that information up ANYWHERE.

 

It really is a shame. 

Though why on earth would they keep the mages where thousands of slaves were sacrificed, massive blood rituals happened and the veil was nearly shredded I'll never undestand. 

Someone probably thought it was funny. 

[Shimmer_Gloom]

"Moses a terrorist for killing all the firstborn of Egypt."

If we want to nit pick, I'm not sure Moses is responsible for that. That was the angel of Death acting on God's orders. Its not like Moses has control over the angel of death. Moses didn't actually do that himself or even order it. He was kind of swept up in the events. Like the Templers.

Anyway. I don't like it when people use words like 'epic' or 'genocide' or 'terrorist' for minor things. Killing a hundred or even three hundred people is not genocide. It devalues the word and further, the act. Genocide is massive and hard to contemplate.

Terrorist though. I certainly think fits Anders. And V from V for Vendeta for that matter. You can still love a terrorist. Buck up CGG you can still love a terrorist. You can even think he's noble.

But Anders started a war, killed innocent people, and incited a lot of fear and suffering... do you deny that? Answer that question first before we get into semantics.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The definition of terrorism on m-w.com is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion." I don't have my OED with me right now, and the AHD isn't free online anymore (/sad), but to me there is nothing about Anders' attack that is "systematic."

 

Anders' attack wasn't planned?  You joking? Systematic means PLANNED. Deliberate. It can *also* mean regular. But that's not the only definition. 

Please please try to fix formatting when copypastaing dictionary stuff here. It really helps.

If all it takes is a planned attack, then any attack that kills or scares anyone is terrorism, including all military attacks and every single case of premeditated murder. In which case every single PC and squadmate in every single bioware game is a terrorist. Can we just abandon this stupid word now, please? 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Ryzaki: A shame to let a huge and perfectly usable city go to waste, I guess. Those things take a lot of time and effort to build.

@Giggles_Manically: Hah

[Plaintiff]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Plaintiff:"People do not commit crimes without motivation. Remove the motivation and the crime will not occur."

And this actually gets to the crux of my point. Thank you. Abuse may provide a motivation but it is hardly the prevailing reason people use blood magic in my opinion. Motivation is a slippery thing to pinpoint... but lets follow my thoughts for a moment.

Why do people turn to blood magic in the first place? What, is essentially unique about blood magic? Power. Blood magic is powerful. Incredibly so. Blood mages do not need lyrium. And they can accomplish amazing feats.

Why does an abused person turn to blood magic? Because it gives them the POWER to fight back. Removing the abuse does not remove the power. And power is the motivation.

You can not solve the blood mage problem in the same way that you can not solve the problem of theft. Humans are drawn to the quick and easy. As long as blood magic is powerful there will be blood mages. And as long as demons provide quick and easy access to this power there will be abominations.

Is this a fair assertion to make?

To a point, yes. But not everyone just wants power for power's sake. In my experience, power is rarely the end goal. Mages we meet in both games want power specifically to free themselves or to get revenge, or they might just be curious, like Jowan was.

And the fact is, the mages who want freedom don't actually have a lot of options. There is no system through which they could earn their freedom by proving themselves to be responsible. Chantry dogma pretty much ensures that they will never, ever be "good enough". Phylacteries make escape attempts mostly futile, which means they have to force their way out and be willing to straight-up kill any templars that come after them (especially given that what we know of the Templar Order as a whole indicates a disturbing tendency to kill first and ask questions never). Except templars can nullify regular magic with their abilities, which leaves Blood Magic as the only option.

As for people being drawn to the "quick and easy", there's also the point that, while powerful, Blood Magic is difficult and dangerous to obtain and use in and of itself. It requires you to be willing to injure yourself and kill others in cold blood, which most people are not willing to do. I remain confident that a large number of the blood mages we see would not take that avenue to power if the system allowed them other options.

[Ryzaki]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The definition of terrorism on m-w.com is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion." I don't have my OED with me right now, and the AHD isn't free online anymore (/sad), but to me there is nothing about Anders' attack that is "systematic."

 

Anders' attack wasn't planned?  You joking? Systematic means PLANNED. Deliberate. It can *also* mean regular. But that's not the only definition. 

Please please try to fix formatting when copypastaing dictionary stuff here. It really helps.

If all it takes is a planned attack, then any attack that kills or scares anyone is terrorism, including all military attacks and every single case of premeditated murder. In which case every single PC and squadmate in every single bioware game is a terrorist. Can we just abandon this stupid word now, please? 

 

It's not planned attack by itself and WHERE did I say that. It says the systematic use of TERROR especially as means of COERCION. 

Which is exactly what Anders did. He planned an attack to prey on people's fears to feed his political agenda. 

I'll abandon that word when people *finally* abandon genocide. 

Edit: Ugh I didn't mean to yell at you. Just getting annoyed at being called a genocidist. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Ryzaki: A shame to let a huge and perfectly usable city go to waste, I guess. Those things take a lot of time and effort to build.

Then they could've left everyone there *but* the mages! Surely that wouldn't have been too difficult! 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Plaintiff wrote...

And the fact is, the mages who want freedom don't actually have a lot of options. There is no system through which they could earn their freedom by proving themselves to be responsible. Chantry dogma pretty much ensures that they will never, ever be "good enough".

Just a small point here...

There are cases of mages being allowed to live lives outside the Circle for services rendered to the Crown (Wilhelm) or by dint of being deemed responsible and trustworthy (Wynne, going with the PC Warden, or travelling after Origins). There is also that mage in Awakening, in the Wending Wood whom Wynne wants you to find, happily looking for plants without a templar escort and willing to return to the Circle to help with internal politics.

The Fereldan Circle is said to be more lenient than the Kirkwall one, but it does seem like mages can be given a limited freedom if the don't make trouble.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Plaintiff:"People do not commit crimes without motivation. Remove the motivation and the crime will not occur."

And this actually gets to the crux of my point. Thank you. Abuse may provide a motivation but it is hardly the prevailing reason people use blood magic in my opinion. Motivation is a slippery thing to pinpoint... but lets follow my thoughts for a moment.

Why do people turn to blood magic in the first place? What, is essentially unique about blood magic? Power. Blood magic is powerful. Incredibly so. Blood mages do not need lyrium. And they can accomplish amazing feats.

Why does an abused person turn to blood magic? Because it gives them the POWER to fight back. Removing the abuse does not remove the power. And power is the motivation.

You can not solve the blood mage problem in the same way that you can not solve the problem of theft. Humans are drawn to the quick and easy. As long as blood magic is powerful there will be blood mages. And as long as demons provide quick and easy access to this power there will be abominations.

Is this a fair assertion to make?

You're putting Blood magic in a strange category. All it is is a particularly efficient form of murder. It's true, we can't solve the problem of blood magic in the same way we can't solve the problem of murder. No matter how awesome our society is, some people will just murder people. And you can murder a LOT of people without blood magic. My Warden and my Hawke and Isabella and Varric and pretty much everyone in my party ever have killed far more people than the average blood mage.

I can assume that you've played Mass Effect. Look at Jack. Say I train a thousand children in the same way that Jack is trained, (biotic or not), drugging them and classically conditioning them to enjoy violence. Say those kids all escape... you can't tell me that all those kids are out murdering people because humans will always choose to commit murder, because it is an easy way to get what you want. Maybe one of those thousand kids would have become a murderer naturally, but because of my training, all 1000 of them are killers.

There are very few human problems that can be solved 100% by taking away the leading causes, sure. But if we put cocaine in the drinking water, and cocaine use rose dramatically, you can't just say "well, you'll never stop cocaine addiction by taking it out of the drinking water." True, taking it out of the drinking water won't completely eliminate its use. BUT IT WILL HELP.

And if you have free mages about, mages whose continued freedom is dependent on eliminating mages who do blood magic, guess what? It'll be a lot easier to eliminate mages who do blood magic, because other mages will actively be hunting them.

And in that time its totally okay for the mages to go on a killing spree?  How would one hunt that mage down?  Gee, sure would be nice if we had a group of people who's sole purpose was to hunt down mages.  Man.  Too bad we don't  have those.

Oh wait.  We do.  Templars.

And yeah, while we are at it why don't we have some kind of organized way to teach mages about the dangers of demons too.  What with all those abomiations running around...

But back to the point you made about helping stop blood magic abuse.  I'm sure it would help.  But it isn't the reason we have the problem in the first place.  The problem is lots and lots of power, with no oversight and no knowledge on how to handle it responsibly.  And when mistakes happen abominations happen.  And 80 people die.  Not one.  Not five.  80.

This isn't like gun control.  This is like bomb control.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Ryzaki: A shame to let a huge and perfectly usable city go to waste, I guess. Those things take a lot of time and effort to build.

Then they could've left everyone there *but* the mages! Surely that wouldn't have been too difficult! 

Normal people shouldn't be living there either.

May I present this Codex entry from DA2, referring to the Enigma of Kirlwall Series, specifically the red text:

It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city. But we've discovered the magisters were deliberately thinning it even further. Beneath the city, demons can contact even normal men. Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else? We've found a chamber where the Veil is at its thinnest, long-since looted, but the power is still there. Tonight we will go there. Pray for us. Pray for us all.

—Hidden behind a rock with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"