1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

CitizenThom wrote.... 

Anders is the preserver of the status quo more than Elthina is:

1) He started with setting blood mages loose with his underground. He created the basis for Meredith's paranoia. As at least a shepard to the freed blood mages, he bears responsability for what they did with their freedom. He is as responsible as Orsino in the murder and defiling of mother Hawke's corpse.

Hahaha, no. That's pure speculation. We never meet any of the mages Anders freed through the secret tunnels, there is no saying whether they are blood mages or not. Anders and Justice despise blood magic and are more than happy to kill the blood mages they encounter. Furthermore, Quentin was free well before the story even begins and there's no telling how long he was working on his corpse bride, it could've been decades. Anders has nothing to do with it.

2) Anders: Killed Elthina, didn't kill the blood mages, didn't kill the templars, didn't kill Meredith. So he killed the one party out of the four that wasn't a part of the problem. He preserved the three of those four that are a part of the status quo and all the problems inherent in that status quo.

Blood mages and templar zealots are not the problem, they are mere symptoms of the throbbing cancer that covers all of Thedas: the Chantry. The status quo of Kirkwall is an uneasy peace, where the Chantry dictates all. Orsino and Meredith disrupt it by fighting openly and provoking each other. Elthina reinforces it by sending them home and as a result of her "actions", or lack thereof, Kirkwall stays the same. Elthina does nothing to effect any sort of change. She could've sent Meredith packing, but she didn't. She could've endorsed a Right of Annulment, but she didn't. Moreover, Elthina doesn't want change, she actively prolongs the conflict by ensuring that both sides ultimately stay exactly where they are.

So, conflict between the Templars and the Blood Mages is the status quo that Anders acted to preserve. Elthina was trying to change the course of the status quo, and Anders murdered her along with several other people at the Chantry who were striving to alter the course of the status quo.

No, Anders broke the uneasy peace in Kirkwall by destroying the person maintaining it. Anders escalated the conflict and forced Meredith and Orsino into taking action.

The Chantry is not trying to alter the status quo, the Chantry is the status quo and has been for a thousand years because it straight-up murders anyone that openly defies it. The Chantry holds the most political power and the most military power of any organization in Thedas. Why would it do anything to change that? It benefits most from things staying exactly the same.

[Ryzaki]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*jaw drops* What...what the hell were they planning? Surely they didn't kill thousands just to summon demons! 

That's...horrible. No wonder demons are so eager to pop out there. Why would they do that? I really hope tha'ts answered in some point in time. 

Yep, that's exactly why I was musing over it a few posts ago.  Whatever they were doing, it was on an unimaginably huge scale.  Some have theorized that Kirkwall is where they actually went into the Fade physically and corrupted the golden city.  That's the only theory I've heard that held any water, but even it has a lot of unanswered questions.  The Chantry says they used mostly lyrium for that, while Kirkwall is mostly blood.  And more importantly, it seems that whatever they were trying in Kirkwall never got finished.

It definitely wasn't the Fade/Golden City incident. I'm pretty sure that happened in Minrathous, but don't want to go hunt for an obscure reference right now.

The question of Kirkwall was never answered, at least by the Band of Three, save that it looked to be connected to the Forgotton Ones.

There was this though:

Many ancient cities specialized in arcane research, but why did Kirkwall hide its efforts here? Why go to such great pains to keep it out of sight? Were they a cabal of renegade magisters? Or was this a special project of the archon?

Whatever they were doing and whoever was doing it, it was top secret.

 

Which makes it even *more* suspicious. I hate mysteries. 

[CitizenThom]

IanPolaris wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

CitizenThom,

Mages are not all bloodmages no matter how much the writers want to try to deceive you into thinking otherwise. Fact is Anders despises bloodmages.

-Polaris

Anders did not once elicit Hawke's assistance in dealing with blood mages. He on several occasions asked for Hawke's help in dealing with Templars.

I didn't say that all mages are blood mages, I specifically delineated by using the words 'blood mages'.

There wasn't a single occasion in the game where a regular mage was responsible for committing any evil... save for Anders. But Anders is an Abomination, just as dangerous as any ill willed blood mage.

That was because of bad writing.  Even the Devs admit they went too far with the "everyone is an insane bloodmage" angle.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Also in your original post, you use "bloodmage" when you really needed to say "mage" and that IMHO undercut the credibility of your whole post which was really my point.

The mages themselves weren't a problem. Blood mages were the problem. It wasn't all mages vs. templars, it was blood mages vs. the templars. In Act III, several templars were trying to look after the mages, it was the blood mages on each occasion that botched things up.

Anders and Meredith are the only people in the game who believe all mages or all templars are evil. I think Anders was a preserver of the status quo by legitamising blood mages; the mages in general didn't need any legitimasation. Anders was specifically aware that the Chantry did not see mages in general as an enemy.

p.s. You're right, the writing creates problems. I don't think 'bad' is fair perse, but the whole thing could have been a little more thought out for the sake of our message boards discussions (ha ha).

Modifié par CitizenThom, 04 juin 2011 - 06:13 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ryzaki wrote...

t even *more* suspicious. I hate mysteries. 

Maybe we'll get to solve it in a DLC XD

[CulturalGeekGirl]

CitizenThom wrote...

Anders and Meredith are the only people in the game who believe all mages or all templars are evil. I think Anders was a preserver of the status quo by legitamising blood mages; the mages in general didn't need any legitimasation. Anders was specifically aware that the Chantry did not see mages in general as an enemy.

This is explicitly untrue. The Chantry teaches everyone that mages are a curse from the Maker. Anders own Andrastean father believed that Anders had magic powers because the Maker was punishing him (see Anders' short story.)

It's consistent througout all the games that the Chantry thinks that all mages are basically blood mages or abominations waiting to happen, and thus they do not have the right to have normal families, or keep their children, or live outside the circle. This is why Anders is lead away from his mother in chains. This is why Wynne never got to meet her son. Neither of them were blood mages at the time. All mages are treated that way, always and forever.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 juin 2011 - 06:18 .

[IanPolaris]

CitizenThom wrote...

The mages themselves weren't a problem. Blood mages were the problem. It wasn't all mages vs. templars, it was blood mages vs. the templars. In Act III, several templars were trying to look after the mages, it was the blood mages on each occasion that botched things up.

That simply isn't true.  Even in Act I, most of the Starkhaven mages WEREN'T Bloodmages (or at least there isn't evidence of it) but they certainly wanted to be free of the circle (and for good reason.  As for in the game "bloodmages" always mucking things up, it was frankly dishonest storytelling.  The Mage underground was not about bloodmagic in the slightest.

Anders and Meredith are the only people in the game who believe all mages or all templars are evil. I think Anders was a preserver of the status quo by legitamising blood mages; the mages in general didn't need any legitimasation. Anders was specifically aware that the Chantry did not see mages in general as an enemy.

Actually Anders does not think all Templars are evil and to be completely fair, the sane version of Meredith doesn't actually believe all Mages are evil either. 

p.s. You're right, the writing creates problems. I don't think 'bad' is fair perse, but the whole thing could have been a little more thought out for the sake of our message boards discussions (ha ha).

I calls them as I sees them.  Even the Devs admitted they went far too overboard in painting all mages outside the Gallows as evil, insane bloodmages, and virtually all the independant critics have panned DA2 for this as well.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Maybe we'll get to solve it in a DLC XD

 

Ooh would explain why the GWs were poking around Kirkwall too! 

Yay mystery solving DLC hurry up please! 

[CitizenThom]

Plaintiff wrote...

CitizenThom wrote.... 

Anders is the preserver of the status quo more than Elthina is:

1) He started with setting blood mages loose with his underground. He created the basis for Meredith's paranoia. As at least a shepard to the freed blood mages, he bears responsability for what they did with their freedom. He is as responsible as Orsino in the murder and defiling of mother Hawke's corpse.

Hahaha, no. That's pure speculation. We never meet any of the mages Anders freed through the secret tunnels, there is no saying whether they are blood mages or not. Anders and Justice despise blood magic and are more than happy to kill the blood mages they encounter. Furthermore, Quentin was free well before the story even begins and there's no telling how long he was working on his corpse bride, it could've been decades. Anders has nothing to do with it.

Anders was the go to guy for any mage escaping the Circle. It is speculative, but the evidence points to it being more likely than not that Anders knew of the mad professor, and of other blood mages that shouldn't have been freed.

2) Anders: Killed Elthina, didn't kill the blood mages, didn't kill the templars, didn't kill Meredith. So he killed the one party out of the four that wasn't a part of the problem. He preserved the three of those four that are a part of the status quo and all the problems inherent in that status quo.

Blood mages and templar zealots are not the problem, they are mere symptoms of the throbbing cancer that covers all of Thedas: the Chantry. The status quo of Kirkwall is an uneasy peace, where the Chantry dictates all. Orsino and Meredith disrupt it by fighting openly and provoking each other. Elthina reinforces it by sending them home and as a result of her "actions", or lack thereof, Kirkwall stays the same. Elthina does nothing to effect any sort of change. She could've sent Meredith packing, but she didn't. She could've endorsed a Right of Annulment, but she didn't. Moreover, Elthina doesn't want change, she actively prolongs the conflict by ensuring that both sides ultimately stay exactly where they are.

The Chantry kept Mages from using blood magic and from becoming abominations. So Blood Magic is not a symptom of the Chantry. The Templar's paranoia of blood magic was caused by the blood mages, not The Chantry. Blood magic is the problem, not the Chantry.

The only change that Elthina doesn't want is the widespread use of blood magic, with good reason. In all other regards, Elthina is trying to end the conflict between the blood mages and templars without getting the regular mages involved. Anders is trying to prolong it. As the epilogue describes, Ander's actions are successful in doing just that, because now the blood mages have the regular mages as body shields.

So, conflict between the Templars and the Blood Mages is the status quo that Anders acted to preserve. Elthina was trying to change the course of the status quo, and Anders murdered her along with several other people at the Chantry who were striving to alter the course of the status quo.

No, Anders broke the uneasy peace in Kirkwall by destroying the person maintaining it. Anders escalated the conflict and forced Meredith and Orsino into taking action.

The Chantry is not trying to alter the status quo, the Chantry is the status quo and has been for a thousand years because it straight-up murders anyone that openly defies it. The Chantry holds the most political power and the most military power of any organization in Thedas. Why would it do anything to change that? It benefits most from things staying exactly the same.

The peace was already broken, what Anders did was to force normal mages to side with blood mages so that the blood mages could continue their battle againt the templars.

[Tommy6860]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*jaw drops* What...what the hell were they planning? Surely they didn't kill thousands just to summon demons! 

That's...horrible. No wonder demons are so eager to pop out there. Why would they do that? I really hope tha'ts answered in some point in time. 

Yep, that's exactly why I was musing over it a few posts ago.  Whatever they were doing, it was on an unimaginably huge scale.  Some have theorized that Kirkwall is where they actually went into the Fade physically and corrupted the golden city.  That's the only theory I've heard that held any water, but even it has a lot of unanswered questions.  The Chantry says they used mostly lyrium for that, while Kirkwall is mostly blood.  And more importantly, it seems that whatever they were trying in Kirkwall never got finished.

It definitely wasn't the Fade/Golden City incident. I'm pretty sure that happened in Minrathous, but don't want to go hunt for an obscure reference right now.

The question of Kirkwall was never answered, at least by the Band of Three, save that it looked to be connected to the Forgotton Ones.

There was this though:

Many ancient cities specialized in arcane research, but why did Kirkwall hide its efforts here? Why go to such great pains to keep it out of sight? Were they a cabal of renegade magisters? Or was this a special project of the archon?

Whatever they were doing and whoever was doing it, it was top secret.

Maybe for the benefit of the Tevinters. In lore, when they corrupted the Golden City and thus started the First Blight, it nearly wiped out the Imperium as well, we know the histories of the Blights afterwards. Maybe they were experimenting in a way as to accomplish what they set out on long ago, without creating another ghastly catastrophe. Add the fact that the Imperium is also at serious odd with the Qunari aside from the Chantry/Templars, they may be trying all (irreverent) avenues for possibilities. It is pretty gruesome to say the least. My question would be, from where and whom does this sanctioning happen?

[IanPolaris]

CitizenThom wrote...

Anders was the go to guy for any mage escaping the Circle. It is speculative, but the evidence points to it being more likely than not that Anders knew of the mad professor, and of other blood mages that shouldn't have been freed.

Better back this up with hard evidence or rescind it.  There is ZERO evidence that Anders knew a damn thing about the Mad Necormancy OR his connection with Orsino,.  In fact Anders is as shocked and horrified as anyone....and there is no way that Justice would go along with it (and certainly not while keeping it a secret).  Killing older middle aged women for body parts doesn't sit well with a spirit of justice.

The Chantry kept Mages from using blood magic and from becoming abominations. So Blood Magic is not a symptom of the Chantry. The Templar's paranoia of blood magic was caused by the blood mages, not The Chantry. Blood magic is the problem, not the Chantry.

The chantry did no such thing.  In fact you can't keep a mage from leaning bloodmagic (from a demon) if that mage really wants to.  The Templars have always been hateful and paranoid towards magic.  Read the Bioware Blog on the topic. The Templars were originally a heretical offshoot of early Andrastianism that hunted down and killed all mages and supernatural creatures (called the Inquisitors then) before being folded into the Chantry proper early in it's history.

The only change that Elthina doesn't want is the widespread use of blood magic, with good reason. In all other regards, Elthina is trying to end the conflict between the blood mages and templars without getting the regular mages involved. Anders is trying to prolong it. As the epilogue describes, Ander's actions are successful in doing just that, because now the blood mages have the regular mages as body shields.

Elthina doesn't want conflict at all.  She never once mentions bloodmagic.  Check the voice logs yourself.

The peace was already broken, what Anders did was to force normal mages to side with blood mages so that the blood mages could continue their battle againt the templars.

The peace was NOT broken.  Anders did what he did to insure that the peace would be broken and that no compromise was possible.  In fact he directly tells you this.

As most you had skirmishes, but skirmishes and local violations of a "cease fire" does not mean a broken peace.

-Polaris

[CitizenThom]

IanPolaris wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...
p.s. You're right, the writing creates problems. I don't think 'bad' is fair perse, but the whole thing could have been a little more thought out for the sake of our message boards discussions (ha ha).

I calls them as I sees them.  Even the Devs admitted they went far too overboard in painting all mages outside the Gallows as evil, insane bloodmages, and virtually all the independant critics have panned DA2 for this as well.

-Polaris

It goes back to the complaint people have had about the general flexibility of the course of events. Heck, this thread itself would be less filled with certian opinions if the game showed a tendency to bend toward's Hawke's perceptions and behaviors. My first playthrough being sympathetic to mages, and my second being at least compassionate to them, the writing would've been a lot better if the mages behaviors, at least with regards to Hawke, were a little more reflective of Hawke's actions in that playthrough.

The mages did lack a lot in the way of a spectrum of motivations. The templars really only had one of two motivations as written.

My conclusions are based on how the game was written. To consider the game based on Origins' codexes, and to try to interpolate Kirkwall minus the non player characters as they were written, yes, I could come up with a completely different interpretation of the parties involved. As written though, Anders' action, while providing the climactic event to close out the game's story... it didn't quite add up with the rest of the game. It's very hard to see anything constructive or positive accomplished by Anders... because of the way the game's story and characters were written.

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

So you mean you can't back it up? What a surprise.

No, she means precisely what she said.  What you choose to spin it as is irrelevant.

[Ryzaki]

Oh look Silfren is bringing up something that already solved and has nothing to do with her just to put her 2cents in. What a surprise.

[CitizenThom]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

Anders and Meredith are the only people in the game who believe all mages or all templars are evil. I think Anders was a preserver of the status quo by legitamising blood mages; the mages in general didn't need any legitimasation. Anders was specifically aware that the Chantry did not see mages in general as an enemy.

This is explicitly untrue. The Chantry teaches everyone that mages are a curse from the Maker. Anders own Andrastean father believed that Anders had magic powers because the Maker was punishing him (see Anders' short story.)

It's consistent througout all the games that the Chantry thinks that all mages are basically blood mages or abominations waiting to happen, and thus they do not have the right to have normal families, or keep their children, or live outside the circle. This is why Anders is lead away from his mother in chains. This is why Wynne never got to meet her son. Neither of them were blood mages at the time. All mages are treated that way, always and forever.

I'm pretty sure the codex from Origins said: "Magic was made to serve mankind, not rule over him."

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Maybe for the benefit of the Tevinters. In lore, when they corrupted the Golden City and thus started the First Blight, it nearly wiped out the Imperium as well, we know the histories of the Blights afterwards. Maybe they were experimenting in a way as to accomplish what they set out on long ago, without creating another ghastly catastrophe. Add the fact that the Imperium is also at serious odd with the Qunari aside from the Chantry/Templars, they may be trying all (irreverent) avenues for possibilities. It is pretty gruesome to say the least. My question would be, from where and whom does this sanctioning happen?

And was it sanctioned, or just a group of mages acting in their own interests?

Maybe there is no answer to the Enigma, and it's just a way to explain Kirkwall's limitless supply of blood mages, demons and crazy people

[IanPolaris]

CitizenThom wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...
p.s. You're right, the writing creates problems. I don't think 'bad' is fair perse, but the whole thing could have been a little more thought out for the sake of our message boards discussions (ha ha).

I calls them as I sees them.  Even the Devs admitted they went far too overboard in painting all mages outside the Gallows as evil, insane bloodmages, and virtually all the independant critics have panned DA2 for this as well.

-Polaris

It goes back to the complaint people have had about the general flexibility of the course of events. Heck, this thread itself would be less filled with certian opinions if the game showed a tendency to bend toward's Hawke's perceptions and behaviors. My first playthrough being sympathetic to mages, and my second being at least compassionate to them, the writing would've been a lot better if the mages behaviors, at least with regards to Hawke, were a little more reflective of Hawke's actions in that playthrough.

The mages did lack a lot in the way of a spectrum of motivations. The templars really only had one of two motivations as written.

My conclusions are based on how the game was written. To consider the game based on Origins' codexes, and to try to interpolate Kirkwall minus the non player characters as they were written, yes, I could come up with a completely different interpretation of the parties involved. As written though, Anders' action, while providing the climactic event to close out the game's story... it didn't quite add up with the rest of the game. It's very hard to see anything constructive or positive accomplished by Anders... because of the way the game's story and characters were written.

Tell me, have you played DAO and DAA?  If so, then you'd know that mages have far more motivations then protrayed in DA2 and you should account for that.  Enough said.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So you mean you can't back it up? What a surprise.

Some definitions of terrorism require it to be systematic. Or to be designed to inspire fear toward a certain group. There was nothing in Anders' attack to indicate more would be forthcoming, or that there was any sort of system  behind it.

Trying to force the mages to fight the templars by having the templars threaten the mages life isn't using fear? Banking on an paraoid woman whose fear of bloodmages abilities would cause her to anull the circle isn't using fear? 

As for Anders' attack which definition (I'd like an actual link to this) means there must be more than one attack? 

His whole speech is about his political agenda behind destroying the Chantry! It wasn't just an assassination of the Grand Cleric. It was to start a war by removing one ofthe main sources of compromise! In what place would that not be defined as terrorism? I'd really like to know. 

The definition of terrorism on m-w.com is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion." I don't have my OED with me right now, and the AHD isn't free online anymore (/sad), but to me there is nothing about Anders' attack that is "systematic."

Also, the first ever use of the term "Terrorism" was
actually describing a government using terror to control its populace (during the Reign of Terror in France in the late 1790s).
So under that definition, the Templars would be guilty of Terrorism but
Anders would not. It's an archaic definition, but the point of this
discussion was that there are some definitions of Terrorist that Anders
does not fit.

Honestly I just wish everyone would stop using the words terroism and genocide completely. They are simply not relevant in this setting. Unless you want to call Moses a terrorist for killing all the firstborn of Egypt... in which case... ok. We'll apply all terms to everything forever regadless of context.

To be fair, I think genocide IS an acceptably relevant term for the setting.  For the very simple reason that Wynne uses it herself in Awakening, as a response to why it's not a good idea to support the mages who want to separate from the Chantry entirely.

[IanPolaris]

CitizenThom wrote...

I'm pretty sure the codex from Origins said: "Magic was made to serve mankind, not rule over him."

Which doesn't mean the Chantry is interpreting it correctly.  Honestly the Tevinter interpretation (not that I am defending Tevinter in the slightest) is the more reasonable and obvious interpretation.

-Polaris

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Thank the maker for you, Ian. I can quit this thread for the weekend and not worry too much.

Edit: the fact that I could even concievably "worry" about the course of a stupid thread on the internet probably indicates there is something deeply, profoundly wrong with me.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[CitizenThom]

IanPolaris wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

Anders was the go to guy for any mage escaping the Circle. It is speculative, but the evidence points to it being more likely than not that Anders knew of the mad professor, and of other blood mages that shouldn't have been freed.

Better back this up with hard evidence or rescind it.  There is ZERO evidence that Anders knew a damn thing about the Mad Necormancy OR his connection with Orsino,.  In fact Anders is as shocked and horrified as anyone....and there is no way that Justice would go along with it (and certainly not while keeping it a secret).  Killing older middle aged women for body parts doesn't sit well with a spirit of justice.

I will not rescind it. Again, blmae the writing if you must, but, as written, Anders is the go to guy for getting mages out of the Circle. That means he's involved with Orsino, and that means he knew Mr. Mad Necromancer was out there as much as Orsino did. Anders may not have known who Mad Necromancer was experimenting on, but he knew he was out there. Based on Anders's blowing up of the Chantry, he and Justice/Pride clearly believe that mages are entitled to kill if they feel it necessary... and the mad necromancer certianly felt it was necessary, it was for love afterall.

The Chantry kept Mages from using blood magic and from becoming abominations. So Blood Magic is not a symptom of the Chantry. The Templar's paranoia of blood magic was caused by the blood mages, not The Chantry. Blood magic is the problem, not the Chantry.

The chantry did no such thing.  In fact you can't keep a mage from leaning bloodmagic (from a demon) if that mage really wants to.  The Templars have always been hateful and paranoid towards magic.  Read the Bioware Blog on the topic. The Templars were originally a heretical offshoot of early Andrastianism that hunted down and killed all mages and supernatural creatures (called the Inquisitors then) before being folded into the Chantry proper early in it's history.

Technically yes, you can only destroy a mage after they learn blood magic. But that's like saying the law doesn't prevent people from murder, because it can only punish after the fact. (Haven't read the blogs, or any paperbacks).

The only change that Elthina doesn't want is the widespread use of blood magic, with good reason. In all other regards, Elthina is trying to end the conflict between the blood mages and templars without getting the regular mages involved. Anders is trying to prolong it. As the epilogue describes, Ander's actions are successful in doing just that, because now the blood mages have the regular mages as body shields.

Elthina doesn't want conflict at all.  She never once mentions bloodmagic.  Check the voice logs yourself.

Blood Magic is the conflict regardless.

The peace was already broken, what Anders did was to force normal mages to side with blood mages so that the blood mages could continue their battle againt the templars.

The peace was NOT broken.  Anders did what he did to insure that the peace would be broken and that no compromise was possible.  In fact he directly tells you this.

As most you had skirmishes, but skirmishes and local violations of a "cease fire" does not mean a broken peace.

-Polaris

The blood mages were at war with the circle and so the templars at the beginning of Act 3. Before that, skirmishes perhaps. Anders' action (as written) doesn't change the status quo, it allows it to continue.

That pretty much is my point in this thread. Anders didn't accomplish anything with the people he killed. The very same events would've taken place had Meredith not been defeated. Meredith was on her course before Anders ever acted, so were the blood mages (what did Leliana call the faction?). Had Anders not acted, Hawke and Elthina would've defeated Meredith, and prevented the status quo of Act 3 from continuing.

[Silfren]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Why does an abused person turn to blood magic? Because it gives them the POWER to fight back. Removing the abuse does not remove the power. And power is the motivation.

I was going to ignore this, but I can't.  

The assumption here is that power is the motivation, but that's not fully true.  The motivation is power specifically to fight back against being abused.  The further assumption is that once the abuse is gone, the mage will still want the power, but this time only for power's sake.

And that's just not true.  People who turn to desperate means because doing so gives them power to fight that they wouldn't otherwise have, are generally not going to want to suddenly use that power for other reasons than self-defense once the need for self-defense is gone.  Some will, sure, but if we went around punishing entire groups because of what exceptions might do....

Bottom line, basing laws on exceptions to the general rule...it makes for very bad laws.

[IanPolaris]

CitizenThom wrote...

I will not rescind it. Again, blmae the writing if you must, but, as written, Anders is the go to guy for getting mages out of the Circle. That means he's involved with Orsino, and that means he knew Mr. Mad Necromancer was out there as much as Orsino did. Anders may not have known who Mad Necromancer was experimenting on, but he knew he was out there. Based on Anders's blowing up of the Chantry, he and Justice/Pride clearly believe that mages are entitled to kill if they feel it necessary... and the mad necromancer certianly felt it was necessary, it was for love afterall.

He is ONE contact in Act 2 (of many) that are involved in smuggling mages out.  In fact it means he probably does NOT have contact with Orsino since Orsino would be obligated by law and by his position to turn Anders into the Templars if he did.    In short, there is not a scintilla of evidence that Anders knew anything of the sort!

Technically yes, you can only destroy a mage after they learn blood magic. But that's like saying the law doesn't prevent people from murder, because it can only punish after the fact. (Haven't read the blogs, or any paperbacks).

The Chantry doesn't even do that.  They declare bloodmagic illegal and kill those that practice it, but the circle was not formed to control bloodmagic.  It was supposedly (if you believe the Chantry) formed as a safety measure against spontaneous abominations.  In fact if you read Circle of the History and other sources, it seems like it was an overt powerplay by Divine Ambrosia II to completely control all magic (lest she kill all mages).

Blood Magic is the conflict regardless.

Except it's not.  Meredith doesn't say "kill all bloodmages" and we know that you CAN test mages for demon possession.  She says, "kill all mages".

The blood mages were at war with the circle and so the templars at the beginning of Act 3. Before that, skirmishes perhaps. Anders' action (as written) doesn't change the status quo, it allows it to continue.

Bloodmages are not a unified group of people.  There were finge elements (like the Resolutionists) who were at war, but that's not at all the same thing.

That pretty much is my point in this thread. Anders didn't accomplish anything with the people he killed. The very same events would've taken place had Meredith not been defeated. Meredith was on her course before Anders ever acted, so were the blood mages (what did Leliana call the faction?). Had Anders not acted, Hawke and Elthina would've defeated Meredith, and prevented the status quo of Act 3 from continuing.

Yes he did.  Whether you approve of it or not (and I've always called what Anders did terrorism myself), Anders very neatly played Meredith like a violine and removed the one person/influence that would have made a last minute compromise possible.  Then Meredith behaved exactly like Anders figured she would.

In fact had Anders not blown up the Chantry, I half suspect that Meredith would have found a "dupe/patsy" (escaped Circle Mage) to kill Ethina herself.  Elthina was in the way of Meredith's dream of purging Kirkwall of evil magic (and we are told this from the start of Act 3).

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Thank the maker for you, Ian. I can quit this thread for the weekend and not worry too much.

Edit: the fact that I could even concievably "worry" about the course of a stupid thread on the internet probably indicates there is something deeply, profoundly wrong with me.

I didn't want to say anything.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2011 - 06:57 .

[CitizenThom]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tell me, have you played DAO and DAA?  If so, then you'd know that mages have far more motivations then protrayed in DA2 and you should account for that.  Enough said.

-Polaris

Yes I have. The writing in Awakening was a little sloppy too though. My sis has a more critical eye than I do, and she noticed about as many inconsistencies in Awakenings (when considered with the lore of Origins) as have been complained about in DA2. I didn't notice them until she pointed them out, but now they do stick out.

Anders (nor Justice for that matter) in Awakenings wouldn't do what Anders/Justice/Pride did in Act 3.

I just think Anders in DA2 isn't worth the debate, his actions were for naught, and so that he killed people is all the worse for it.

The Keeper's actions and decisions.... and Merrill's for that matter, I think have a lot more room for debate. Both the Keeper and Merrill were trying to accomplish something that they both had good reason to believe could be accomplished by their actions.

I don't think the same applies for Anders/Justice/Pride (as written in DA2).

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

No, she means precisely what she said.  What you choose to spin it as is irrelevant.

CitizenThom wrote...

I'm pretty sure the codex from Origins said: "Magic was made to serve mankind, not rule over him."

Doesn't mean that's what they're teaching. Again,