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[Silfren]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Actual power versus legal authority.  The Chantry is the legal authority over the templars.  If it's lost control of them in KIrkwall, then it's obligated to bring them back under the yoke.  Elthina DOES have authority over the templars and knight-commander of Kirkwall, whether or not she has the actual power to back it.  If she does not, then she has an obligation to appeal to the Divine for assistance.  And Elthina is NOT without her own power.  Her codex makes this very clear.  So your point is an argument for the Chantry coming down hard on the templars of Kirkwall, not a valid defense for their being allowed to run rampant.

Modifié par Silfren, 25 mai 2011 - 12:01 .

[Xilizhra]

KateKane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

rak72 wrote...

even if you thought Elthina was sucky at her job, it doesn't make it right to murder her and everyone standining in a 200 yard radius of her. Anders is a greasy terrorist pig.

Pretending that Elthina was just sucky at her job, as if that's the end of the matter, is disingenuous.  We're not talking about a merchant refusing to sell their goods, but a Grand Cleric refusing to force her knight-commander and templars to follow Chantry law.  By her inaction she is permitting them to commit horrible abuses. As long as she refuses to act against it, she might as well be giving it her explicit stamp of approval; as long as the abuses continue to happen, there's no practical difference to the mages whether she's simply allowing it through her passivity or outright promoting it.

That doesn't really excuse the whole "dozens if not hundreds of innocents were surely killed by the blast" thing. Anders is nothing more than a selfish, insane terrorist. Also an abomination.

And you know what? Meredith was absolutely right. All but a scant few mages you encounter practice blood magic.
Even the First Enchanter.
For the saftey of the people of Kirkwall, and even just in the name of upholding the law, the mages got exactly what they deserved throughout the entire game.

The reason you encounter those mages is because they're causing trouble. The vast, vast majority of Kirkwall mages don't use blood magic, and remain locked in the Gallows. Plus, Orsino doesn't use it until he's in truly dire straits (in the templar ending; in the mage ending, everything just goes stupid).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
The fact that the leadership was impressed enough with her to promote her that high is extremely disturbing.

She's probably a good tactician for leading the Templars against the previous Viscount. (one wonders however why a good tactician would think it's a good idea to give mages time to prepare their defenses and give them fuinnels for free).

But how the Chantry ever thought that she is suitable to handle such a delicate situation, after an unprecendented event of Templars orchastrating a Coup D'Etat, is beyond me. Really, the Chantry is a crumbling institution with decisions makers like this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 11:42 .

[Silfren]

KateKane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

rak72 wrote...

even if you thought Elthina was sucky at her job, it doesn't make it right to murder her and everyone standining in a 200 yard radius of her. Anders is a greasy terrorist pig.

Pretending that Elthina was just sucky at her job, as if that's the end of the matter, is disingenuous.  We're not talking about a merchant refusing to sell their goods, but a Grand Cleric refusing to force her knight-commander and templars to follow Chantry law.  By her inaction she is permitting them to commit horrible abuses. As long as she refuses to act against it, she might as well be giving it her explicit stamp of approval; as long as the abuses continue to happen, there's no practical difference to the mages whether she's simply allowing it through her passivity or outright promoting it.

That doesn't really excuse the whole "dozens if not hundreds of innocents were surely killed by the blast" thing. Anders is nothing more than a selfish, insane terrorist. Also an abomination.

And you know what? Meredith was absolutely right. All but a scant few mages you encounter practice blood magic.
Even the First Enchanter.
For the saftey of the people of Kirkwall, and even just in the name of upholding the law, the mages got exactly what they deserved throughout the entire game.

When I see actual evidence that dozens or hundreds of innocents were killed, I'll consider it.  Until then, no.  I find it telling, though, that Bioware didn't bother to show any innocents getting cut down.  That may or may not mean something, but there it is.  

Meredith was NOT right, unless you consider retro-justification to be a valid defense, which I don't.  Most of the mages we see practicing blood magic were either clearly pushed into it out of desperation, or there's enough ambiguity to conclude that they were.  NOT that many mages were practicing blood magic just because, or in an attempt to gain domination over others.  You can't shove people into a situation where they have nothing left to lose, put them into a damned-if-they-do/damned-if-they-don't scenario, and then use that to justify abusing them all along.  The mages have absolutely no reason NOT to resort to blood magic and demon assistance once its clear that even if they don't, they'll be treated with suspicion and contempt anyway.

[KateKane]

Xilizhra wrote...

The vast, vast majority of Kirkwall mages don't use blood magic, and remain locked in the Gallows. 

This sounds like an assumption. Or did I miss something?

Plus, Orsino doesn't use it until he's in truly dire straits (in the templar ending; in the mage ending, everything just goes stupid).

That's the first time you see him use it, but it's unlikey to be his first time.
He was supporting the blood mage who kills Hawke's mother three years prior.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The fact that the leadership was impressed enough with her to promote her that high is extremely disturbing.

She's probably a good tactician for leading the Templars against the previous Viscount. (one wonders however why a good tactician would think it's a good idea to give mages time to prepare their defenses and give them fuinnels for free).

But how the Chantry ever thought that she is suitable to handle such a delicate situation, after an unprecendented event of Templars orchastrating a Coup D'Etat, is beyond me. Really, the Chantry is a crumbling institution with decisions makers like this.

Fun part? I believe it was Elthina who appointed her in the first place.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They don't need it, they have seekers.

I highly doubt Templars would follow Meredith against the Chantry. I'd be surprised if any Templar is impressed with that pile of fail enough to defy the Chantry.

The fact that the leadership was impressed enough with her to promote her that high is extremely disturbing; yes, don't do anything about her horrible emotional scars except foster the behavior that stems from them!
Of course, the Seekers hardly seem better, judging by Leliana's mission. Maybe we'll get to assassinate the Divine in DA3.

Does this mean you think we'll have a chance to be a member of the Resolutionists in DA3?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 mai 2011 - 11:46 .

[Xilizhra]

KateKane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The vast, vast majority of Kirkwall mages don't use blood magic, and remain locked in the Gallows. 

This sounds like an assumption. Or did I miss something?

Plus, Orsino doesn't use it until he's in truly dire straits (in the templar ending; in the mage ending, everything just goes stupid).

That's the first time you see him use it, but it's unlikey to be his first time.
He was supporting the blood mage who kills Hawke's mother three years prior.

Your statement is a far bigger assumption. There's no evidence whatsoever that the Circle was full of blood mages.

Also, when he says it was his first time, he has no reason to lie. And I believe his collaboration was only with the spirit side of necromancy (plus being before Quentin went crazy).

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They don't need it, they have seekers.

I highly doubt Templars would follow Meredith against the Chantry. I'd be surprised if any Templar is impressed with that pile of fail enough to defy the Chantry.

The fact that the leadership was impressed enough with her to promote her that high is extremely disturbing; yes, don't do anything about her horrible emotional scars except foster the behavior that stems from them!
Of course, the Seekers hardly seem better, judging by Leliana's mission. Maybe we'll get to assassinate the Divine in DA3.

Does this mean you think we'll have a chance to be a member of the Resolutionists in DA3?

Well, they're likely to be effectively every former Circle mage now, so I'd say it's entirely possible.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Does this mean you think we'll have a chance to be a member of the Resolutionists in DA3?

Magister, or I am not interested.

[Sister Helen]

The overall expectation of this forum appears to be that religious leaders must impose their will on the faithful and their servants, to enforce a strict interpretation of religious law.  Sound familiar? 

Elthina was not that type of religious. She was a person of faith who tried to lead her followers by the example of her life.  Unfortunately, no one paid attention to her or her teachings, due to the overall noise from two blowhards (Meredith and Orsino). 

I wonder if she will be canonized in the next game.  Much like Andraste, she did not "volunteer" for the flame - and she perished for her faith.  Wouldn't that be annoying to some folks - if Elthina statues started appearing around Thedas...?

[KateKane]

Silfren wrote...

When I see actual evidence that dozens or hundreds of innocents were killed, I'll consider it.  Until then, no.  I find it telling, though, that Bioware didn't bother to show any innocents getting cut down.  That may or may not mean something, but there it is.

It was a church in a populated area. How could Elthina possibly be the only person caught in the blast?

Meredith was NOT right, unless you consider retro-justification to be a valid defense, which I don't.  Most of the mages we see practicing blood magic were either clearly pushed into it out of desperation, or there's enough ambiguity to conclude that they were.  NOT that many mages were practicing blood magic just because, or in an attempt to gain domination over others.  You can't shove people into a situation where they have nothing left to lose, put them into a damned-if-they-do/damned-if-they-don't scenario, and then use that to justify abusing them all along.  The mages have absolutely no reason NOT to resort to blood magic and demon assistance once its clear that even if they don't, they'll be treated with suspicion and contempt anyway.

How does using blood magic and consorting with demons improve their lot in life? Unless they use that power to free themselves, possibly killing templars in the process. At that point, they would be free to very likely become abominations and murder people, because that sort of thing tends to happen when mage make deals with demons.

Really, all they're doing is proving that Meredith is right.

[Dean_the_Young]

Silfren wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Actual power versus legal authority.  The Chantry is the legal authority over the templars. If it's lost control of them in KIrkwall, then it's obligated to bring them back under the yoke.

And if it doesn't have control over them, it can't be said to be the legitimate military target on the grounds of controling that element. Make your position clear: is Anders theoretecally justified in blowing up the Chantry because the Chantry is in control of the Templars? That is a fine argument to make, but it becomes invalid the moment the Chantry is not, in fact, in control of the Templars.

 Elthina DOES have authority over the templars and knight-commander of Kirkwall, whether or not she has the actual power to back it.  If she does not, then she has an obligation to appeal to the Divine for assistance.  And Elthina is NOT without her own power.  Her codex makes this very clear. 

Authority is worth the weight of the swords enforcing it. While Elthina is popular, she is not powerful i nthe sense of being able to enforce her will on the Templars not least because the Templars are her primary means of enforcing her will in any matter. If the Templars are beyond her control, and she does not have other means to enforce her will, she does not have power in the relevant matter.

So your point is an argument for the Chantry coming down hard on the
templars of Kirkwall, not a valid defense for their being allowed to run
rampant.

It means nothing of the sort unless you wish it to. Then again, you coud wish that my wearing a red shirt prove that I am a communist. You can wish quite a many things with other interpretations.

Whatever you would want Elthina to do, from the start it's clear that her priority is not setting off the powerder keg that is Kirkwall. Policies and responsibilities that would do just that, no matter how well intentioned or agreeable to her personally (or not), will be set to the wayside. What you perceive her job as being, and what she perceives her job as being, are only tangently related by circumstance.

[Rifneno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

What a load.  Why do you think the grand cleric was the one to appoint a knight commander in the first place?  Why do you think Elthina was able to tell the templars what to do in the opening scene of Act III, right down to telling Meredith to go to her room like a child?  Most of all, why do you think Orsino was going to the Chantry in protest of Meredith's search because "Grand Cleric Elthina will put a stop to this"?

KateKane wrote...

That doesn't really excuse the whole "dozens if not hundreds of innocents were surely killed by the blast" thing. Anders is nothing more than a selfish, insane terrorist. Also an abomination.

It's incredible how many people don't understand the cost of war. Innocents die all the time. You know where you'd be if good men weren't willing to get their hands bloody to take down an evil empire that's doing a thousand times worse? If you've got blue eyes and blonde hair, you'd be saluting a German flag; otherwise you simply wouldn't exist.

Wynne is an abomination.

And you know what? Meredith was absolutely right. All but a scant few mages you encounter practice blood magic.

That is mindblowingly stupid. You can't use people defending themselves as a justification for attacking them in the first place. This is like a rapist saying "she deserved it, she sprayed mace in my eyes!" because he got maced mid-attack.

KateKane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The vast, vast majority of Kirkwall mages don't use blood magic, and remain locked in the Gallows. 

This sounds like an assumption. Or did I miss something?

Plus, Orsino doesn't use it until he's in truly dire straits (in the templar ending; in the mage ending, everything just goes stupid).

That's the first time you see him use it, but it's unlikey to be his first time.
He was supporting the blood mage who kills Hawke's mother three years prior.

I like how you say someone else is working on an assumption, then on the very next line use one yourself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then an Exalted March is entirely warranted... against the templars. Even for its own self-interest, the Chantry really shouldn't just let this go (as seen when the templars rebel en masse).

If an Exalted March against the Templars would solve the problems at hand and not make worse? Sure. Now, will it? I can think of a number of ways in which a Chantry civil war would not, in fact, be desirable for the Chantry. Even if/when a related problem will occur later

A march against the Templars for the position of one templar commander, Meredith in Act 3, who isn't even actively working against the Chantry is akin to threatening to nuke a country over a trade dispute. Their is no proportion. One might say it's actually quite... evil.

[Xilizhra]

It's incredible how many people don't understand the cost of war. Innocents die all the time. You know where you'd be if good men weren't willing to get their hands bloody to take down an evil empire that's doing a thousand times worse? If you've got blue eyes and blonde hair, you'd be saluting a German flag; otherwise you simply wouldn't exist.

I hate to nitpick, but fascist regimes really aren't very good at sustaining themselves without war, so this seems somewhat unlikely. Also, you'd just need conscripts more frightened of their own dictator than of the enemy dictator, because Germany mostly lost to the Soviets. But otherwise I agree.

[Xilizhra]

A march against the Templars for the position of one templar commander, Meredith in Act 3, who isn't even actively working against the Chantry is akin to threatening to nuke a country over a trade dispute. Their is no proportion. One might say it's actually quite... evil.

Well, they're a military junta breaking both civil and divine law. If nothing else, the Seekers should be dealing with that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's incredible how many people don't understand the cost of war. Innocents die all the time. You know where you'd be if good men weren't willing to get their hands bloody to take down an evil empire that's doing a thousand times worse? If you've got blue eyes and blonde hair, you'd be saluting a German flag; otherwise you simply wouldn't exist.

I hate to nitpick, but fascist regimes really aren't very good at sustaining themselves without war, so this seems somewhat unlikely.

Eh, one could make the argument that historically speaking, "democratic" governments were much more aggressive and imperialistic than others.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Does this mean you think we'll have a chance to be a member of the Resolutionists in DA3?

Magister, or I am not interested.

Still reminds me of the wizard-lords of House Telvanni.

I'd like to see Tevinter, although I have doubts the developers have the ability to make a pro-active and strong protagonist based on the direction of DA2, or even handle a society like the Imperium. I'd be curious to see Tevinter through the eyes of a Tevinter Magister, walking down the Arcanist Hall in Minrathous that spans centuries of history, or leading an army of trained mages against the might of the Stens on the battlefield at Seheron.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's incredible how many people don't understand the cost of war. Innocents die all the time. You know where you'd be if good men weren't willing to get their hands bloody to take down an evil empire that's doing a thousand times worse? If you've got blue eyes and blonde hair, you'd be saluting a German flag; otherwise you simply wouldn't exist.

I hate to nitpick, but fascist regimes really aren't very good at sustaining themselves without war, so this seems somewhat unlikely.

Eh, one could make the argument that historically speaking, "democratic" governments were much more aggressive and imperialistic than others.

Democracy is older than totalitarianism, and democratic governments also just plain last longer than totalitarian ones, so that balance seems somewhat skewed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rifneno wrote...

What a load.  Why do you think the grand cleric was the one to appoint a knight commander in the first place?

Except Elthina really didn't. Meredith assumed command and overthrew the Viscount who killed her immediate predecessor. Meredith was a de facto leader made official, not an official appointment

 Why do you think Elthina was able to tell the templars what to do in the opening scene of Act III, right down to telling Meredith to go to her room like a child?

Because Meredith, despite being the most powerful person in the city, doesn't want a direct confrontation with the Grand Cleric when she doesn't need one. Few tyrants are so absolute as to be able to ignore everyone, and Elthina isn't someone Meredith even particularly dislikes.

 Most of all, why do you think Orsino was going to the Chantry in protest of Meredith's search because "Grand Cleric Elthina will put a stop to this"?

Because Orsino wants to use the threat of a confrontation to convince Meredith to back down.

You might as well ask why Orsino didn't appeal to the Grand Cleric on every matter: because, it its heart, it isn't something Orsino wants to do. If the Grand Cleric is forced to side against him, Meredith gets more power because the Grand Cleric will be seen as endorsing her. If the Grand Cleric sides with him, there's the risk of Meredith simply accepting the costs and defying the Grand Cleric, at which point he still loses. The Grand Cleric's ambiguity of position is exactly why she can be a moderator.

That is mindblowingly stupid. You can't use people defending themselves as a justification for attacking them in the first place. This is like a rapist saying "she deserved it, she sprayed mace in my eyes!" because he got maced mid-attack.

In some contexts, it is. People spreading plague is a legitimate reason to keeping them confined to an area where, by their nature, they will spread plague.

[LobselVith8]

KateKane wrote...

How does using blood magic and consorting with demons improve their lot in life? Unless they use that power to free themselves, possibly killing templars in the process. At that point, they would be free to very likely become abominations and murder people, because that sort of thing tends to happen when mage make deals with demons.

Really, all they're doing is proving that Meredith is right.

What point? Meredith wants to execute the Circle of Kirkwall because of an act committed by an apostate. There's no debate over blood magic when she orders Hawke to help her because "the people will demand blood." All she is doing is trying to appease the mob.

Also, I can see why some mages would use blood magic. Templars can nullify ordinary magic, but they can't nullify blood magic. If it's a choice between life and death, I can see why mages would resort to blood magic to survive. Even some Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge over the darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Democracy is older than totalitarianism, and democratic governments also just plain last longer than totalitarian ones, so that balance seems somewhat skewed.

They don't necessarily no and it doesn't really dismiss the point of their aggression, often to self-sustain.

But that's another topic that I won't get into.

[Silfren]

Sister Helen wrote...

The overall expectation of this forum appears to be that religious leaders must impose their will on the faithful and their servants, to enforce a strict interpretation of religious law.  Sound familiar? 

Not really.  I'd wager that most of us just wish Elthina had done her job.  That's what we've all been SAYING, at least.    We just think that Elthina should have, you know, ENFORCED CHANTRY LAWS AGAINST ABUSE.  It's not like she's the Grand Cleric or anything.  That isn't anywhere close to your implication that we think Elthina should have enforce religious dogma.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, they're a military junta breaking both civil and divine law. If nothing else, the Seekers should be dealing with that.

Juntas are the civil law, and divine law has always been up to the enforcers. Who, in this case, are the junta.

Seekers aren't Spectres, nor is there any reason Meredith would be forced to treat them like so. Meredith can always simply kill them, blame them as possessed by Blood Magic, and force the Chantry back into its position of not wanting to openly admit that it can't control her.


Not, mind you, that Meredith is even seen as the bigger problem in Kirkwall. The Blood Mages are the real threat, and would be causing sever problems regardless of Meredith. Getting into a civil war against Meredith would really only benefit the people instigating this civil war.