1207 réponses à ce sujet

[KateKane]

Rifneno wrote...


It's incredible how many people don't understand the cost of war. Innocents die all the time. You know where you'd be if good men weren't willing to get their hands bloody to take down an evil empire that's doing a thousand times worse? If you've got blue eyes and blonde hair, you'd be saluting a German flag; otherwise you simply wouldn't exist.

This wasn't an act of war, it was an act of terrorism. 
And the mage's lives didn't truly get threatened until said act of terrorism.

Wynne is an abomination.

Good point

That is mindblowingly stupid. You can't use people defending themselves as a justification for attacking them in the first place. This is like a rapist saying "she deserved it, she sprayed mace in my eyes!" because he got maced mid-attack.

Swing and a miss with that rape metaphor.
The blood mages Hawke encounters generally attack him/her on sight, or wait until a better moment to do so. Or perhaps they just turn into abominations and start killing people. They are all selfly endanging every around them.
Such behavior is exactly why the Circle exists and why Meredith's harsh methods are needed in the hellhole that is Kirkwall

I like how you say someone else is working on an assumption, then on the very next line use one yourself.

What am I asuuming?
It strikes me as unlikely that Orsino had never practiced blood magic, given his close ties to a powerful blood mage and the fact that he knew how to fuse a bunch of corpses into his body to become a monster.

Modifié par KateKane, 25 mai 2011 - 12:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Such behavior is exactly why the Circle exists and why Meredith's harsh methods are needed in the hellhole that is Kirkwall

Meredith's methods made the hellhole that is Kirkwall!

[LobselVith8]

KateKane wrote...

And the mage's lives didn't truly get threatened until said act of terrorism.

I think the mages like Alain and Karl would disagree.

[Silfren]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


And if it doesn't have control over them, it can't be said to be the legitimate military target on the grounds of controling that element. Make your position clear: is Anders theoretecally justified in blowing up the Chantry because the Chantry is in control of the Templars? That is a fine argument to make, but it becomes invalid the moment the Chantry is not, in fact, in control of the Templars.

I believe I've already made my position clear.  Controlling the templars is the Chantry's place.  If Elthina has lost actual power, she still retains the authority, and therefore the responsibility.  There's nothing preventing her from calling on the Divine for help.  So if the Chantry of Kirkwall and the Grand Cleric of the Free Marches is refusing to fulfill it's legal obligation, then yes, Anders is justified. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one. 

It was not.

The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.

Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.

The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power.  The templars are under the rule of the Chantry regardless of the fact that they stole political power in Kirkwall years before.  Technically, Meredith has not been voted by the citizens of Kirkwall to be their Viscount and the game never explained the actual system on how a Viscount was decided like they did with the ruling monarch of Ferelden.  The title of Viscount came about from prior occupation.  The Divine is over the Andrastian ruled nations, their chantries. The Grand Clerics of each nation are next in rank, the Revered Mother, Laysisters, then a novice.  Templars because of their number and their outing of the previous Viscount is the only reason Meredith felt she had the power.  Even though by law of the citizens of Kirkwall she didn't. Viscount Dumar didn't want to oppose the Chantry political power and followed along with Meredith to a certain extent.  Meredith is the one who put Dumar in his office to begin with. 

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.  She was totally out of control by then.  The Grand Cleric is the only one within Kirkwall that had that authority.  She also had the authority to put a stop to  the abuse of the Templars who weren't following chantry laws and their abuse of the mages.  The Grand Cleric also mentions and realizes that Meredith is picking on Orsino and the mages she states so in her comments before she asks a templar to escort Orsino back to the Gallows.  So she knew it was going on and once again she doesn't put a stop to it.  She should have reigned in Meredith way before the events of Act 3.  I also agree with a poster above that Meredith because of her personal family history shouldn't have ever held the position of Knight Commander of Kirkwall.  Once again her goes right back to the Grand Cleric in making this decison years before.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?  It's done off screen so how do we know? Just because he wanted to sneak into the Chantry doesn't mean he actually planted that bomb, he only admits to accepting justice inside him.  Though he probably did plant the bomb. My last playthough I had the thought what if Meredith is the one that set that bomb with the magic from the idol somehow and not Anders?  I'm sure she didn't like being told to go to her room like a good little girl in front of the citizens of Kirkwall by the Grand Cleric.  Even Varric states at the ending with Cassandra it could have been the idol all along, he as good as tells Cassandra to take her pick on who she wants as villan.  I can also Trevinter in the background causing havoc in the whole mess.

If Anders did set the bomb, was he justified and did I agree?  Well it really depends on how I roleplay the game.  Some of my Hawkes who will be mages will agree and especially with Bethany being a mage within the circle.  If Carver is alive he will side with the templars.  But to blow up innocent people, no I didn't agree with the method choosen and I didn't like the fact Hawke didn't have a choice in stopping what happened.   I should have had the opportunity as a player in helping the save the chantry and the people within or allow it to be blown up.  I never had a choice as a player and this ticked me off.

[KateKane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KateKane wrote...

And the mage's lives didn't truly get threatened until said act of terrorism.

I think the mages like Alain and Karl would disagree.

A mage who took part in a conspiracy to take down Meredith and blackmail Hawke and another who was consorting with an abomination.

[GavrielKay]

KateKane wrote...

And you know what? Meredith was absolutely right. All but a scant few mages you encounter practice blood magic.
Even the First Enchanter.

The sentence that I emphasized says it all.  The mages that we encounter, says nothing about the hundreds of mages that we don't encounter because they're following the rules.  The mages that we see are a small percentage of the total, and the bad ones at that.  How do we know they're bad?  They've broken out of the place they are legally supposed to stay in.  Not a good sample to judge the several hundred who stay put.

[Dean_the_Young]

Silfren wrote...

I believe I've already made my position clear. 

If someone has to ask, then no. Your position is not clear.

Controlling the templars is the Chantry's place.  If Elthina has lost actual power, she still retains the authority, and therefore the responsibility.  There's nothing preventing her from calling on the Divine for help.  So if the Chantry of Kirkwall and the Grand Cleric of the Free Marches is refusing to fulfill it's legal obligation, then yes,

Of course there can be things preventing her from calling! Considerations of the impact of such an action. Impacts that could be worse not only for the city as a whole, but the mages as well!

Considerations of consequence are always a basis for belaying action.

Anders is justified. 

On the basis that the Chantry should be controlling the Templars, Anders is justified in attacking the Chantry while it is not, in fact, controlling the Templars.

Right. Clear enough, Anders is crazy.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 mai 2011 - 12:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Silfren wrote...

Not really.  I'd wager that most of us just wish Elthina had done her job.  That's what we've all been SAYING, at least.    We just think that Elthina should have, you know, ENFORCED CHANTRY LAWS AGAINST ABUSE.  It's not like she's the Grand Cleric or anything.  That isn't anywhere close to your implication that we think Elthina should have enforce religious dogma.

Until Act 3, Meredith wasn't abusing Chantry laws. By Act 3, Elthina wasn't in a position to enforce those laws. The reasons Elthina couldn't, however, were a series of events well beyond her control (and, in so much that she could be made aware, she did sensible actions).

[Huntress]

I am not considering Anders a good friend after that, he could have told my hawk! My hawk would have done it by herself and kept him save. ( and learn more about that spells)
Who needs lyrium or arishock powder after that!?

Some people want peaceful revolutions, yes they looks better in paper or their mind, the truth is:
Is WAR, people dies from both sides and both sides have heros and champions.
My heros will be on the mage/elves side so, to the chantry: bring it on.

[rak72]

Meh, Karl - what to we really know about Karl - just what Anders tells us, and that doesn't hold much weight with me. He could have been up to his elbows in blood magic and ready to pull another Uldred for all we know.

[GavrielKay]

Sister Helen wrote...

The overall expectation of this forum appears to be that religious leaders must impose their will on the faithful and their servants, to enforce a strict interpretation of religious law.  Sound familiar? 

Elthina was not that type of religious. She was a person of faith who tried to lead her followers by the example of her life.  Unfortunately, no one paid attention to her or her teachings, due to the overall noise from two blowhards (Meredith and Orsino). 

Then she was welcome to step down as Grand Cleric and go back to preaching in the villages and spreading the word of the Maker's return.  If she couldn't handle the responsibility demanded by her position she was obligated to resign.  People with power and authority have an obligation to use it to keep atrocities from being committed by the people they have authority over.  If she couldn't do it herself, she should have appealed to the Divine.  "She isn't that sort of person" is right up there as an excuse with "she's old and tired."  It's a lovely reason to step down, a rotten reason to sit back and watch her city crumble.

[KateKane]

Huntress wrote...

I am not considering Anders a good friend after that, he could have told my hawk! My hawk would have done it by herself and kept him save. ( and learn more about that spells)
Who needs lyrium or arishock powder after that!?

Some people want peaceful revolutions, yes they looks better in paper or their mind, the truth is:
Is WAR, people dies from both sides and both sides have heros and champions.
My heros will be on the mage/elves side so, to the chantry: bring it on.

But Anders' murder of innocent bystanders and the one leader who was trying to resolve the issue peacefully is what starts the war in the first place.
Literally every single life lost in the war will be because of Anders.

[LobselVith8]

KateKane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KateKane wrote...

And the mage's lives didn't truly get threatened until said act of terrorism.

I think the mages like Alain and Karl would disagree.

A mage who took part in a conspiracy to take down Meredith and blackmail Hawke and another who was consorting with an abomination.

You mean a mage who sided with Thrask because he was getting raped by templars and a mage who was illegally made tranquil because he was writing letters to a Grey Warden?

[Dean_the_Young]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power. 

Just  how much history do you no, I wonder? The funny thing about heirarchies is that the top is only in charge as long as the subordinate elements consent. This is basis of revolutions and coups: when subordinate elements realize that the leaders rely on them to stay in power, and not the other way, subordinate groups (the Workers, the Common People, the Police, or even the Army) can and historically often have seized power from their bosses. Leaders whose power depends on a subordinate element are particularly vulnerable to that subordinate element remaining obedient, and are exceptionally powerless when it isn't.

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.

If the Grand Cleric could do with Meredith as she pleased, the Grand Cleric would be the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

Everyone in Kirkwall, however, recognizes that the political reality is that Meredith is the most powerful, and the Champion the second. Whatever the Grand Cleric's place in that order should have been is irrelevant to what is.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

The Divine's concerns aren't on Meredith, but on the powers behind the threat that Meredith is behind. Marching on Kirkwall

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?

1-He claimed so.
2-No one else did.
3-We helped him do it.

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

Meh, Karl - what to we really know about Karl - just what Anders tells us, and that doesn't hold much weight with me. He could have been up to his elbows in blood magic and ready to pull another Uldred for all we know.

We know Ser Alrik - who threatened the child Ella with tranquility and implied rape for trying to let her mother know she was still alive - ordered Karl to be made tranquil, which Ser Bardel had doubts about and was threatened with losing his job if he persisted looking into the matter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Divine's concerns aren't on Meredith, but on the powers behind the threat that Meredith is behind. Marching on

Which makes her stupid. If only because she didn't realize that Meredith is not suitable for the quite delicate job.

[rak72]

I think Karl was a rabble rouser. He & Anders/Justice were probably plotting the overthrow of the circle in those letters.  Just because a jerk teplar ordered his tranquility doesn't mean he didn't have it comming.

Modifié par rak72, 25 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Grand Cleric could do with Meredith as she pleased, the Grand Cleric would be the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

Everyone in Kirkwall, however, recognizes that the political reality is that Meredith is the most powerful, and the Champion the second. Whatever the Grand Cleric's place in that order should have been is irrelevant to what is.

The Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine, and even the codex on Elthina acknowledges that she is Meredith's superior. Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium trade and Elthina could call on the Divine and the Knight-Vigilant if there's any sort of insubordination, we see that instead Elthina does nothing despite the fact that she is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in this part of the Free Marches, but does nothing with her authority. She makes it clear she's expecting the Maker to handle it, despite the fact that it's against what the Chantry actually preaches (that he abandoned humanity).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Codex also says that Elthina's ability to control Meredith is waning ever year.

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

I think Karl was a rabble rouser. He & Anders/Justice were probably plotting the overthrow of the circle in those letters.  Just because a jerk teplar ordered his tranquility doesn't mean he didn't have it comming.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't trust the word of a templar who is making mages illegally tranquil and is openly proposing making every man, woman, and child of the Circles of Magi into a tranquil mage. Also, Anders becomes a member of the underground three years after Karl's death because of what happened to Karl (which was a Harrowed mage being made illegally tranquil), since he came to Kirkwall because of what Karl was telling him about the Kirkwall Circle. Are you telling me the same Anders who thought it was a bad idea for all the Circles to break free from the Chantry because of the threat of death was conspiracing to overthrow them a few weeks later? Anders became so determined to free all mages because of what Karl told him about the Gallows, and utimately became a part of the underground to free Kirkwall mages because he failed Karl.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Codex also says that Elthina's ability to control Meredith is waning ever year.

Actually, the codex states: "Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known." The fact that she orders templars to escort Orsino back to his cell and tells Meredith to be a "good girl" demonstrates she does have power, but she does nothing about the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator over the Kirkwall populace.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Divine's concerns aren't on Meredith, but on the powers behind the threat that Meredith is behind. Marching on

Which makes her stupid. If only because she didn't realize that Meredith is not suitable for the quite delicate job.

Being suited and having to stick with someone are two different things. So is having better alternatives.

The political problem surrounding Kirkwall is that while Meridith is uncontrollable, she isn't rogue. Meredith is in one of those rare historic positions in that while she has the power to do what she wants, she's largely content to remain in a nominaly subordinate position and not overthrow the boat itself for her own vanity. She's dedicated to her job, not the system, and so long as the system allows her to keep at her job she'll keep in the system. But, and this is what the system (and maybe she) knows, if the system tries to stop her from doing her job she'll overthrow the system.

Or, to reword it, she'll do whatever is asked of her, so long as she isn't asked to stop. At which point she will stop listening, and then you have no control at all.


Meredith is beyond limiting, but she isn't beyond influencing... so long as the Chantry doesn't push her to go rouge. And trying to remove her not only seems likely to push her to go rogue, but almost certainly to fail.

The Divine is in the unfortunate position of being unable to easily remove Meredith whether she's delicate or not, while also having to balance that Meredith herself isn't the real antagonist while focusing on Meredith will ruin focus against that antagonist.

[Huntress]

KateKane wrote...

Huntress wrote...

I am not considering Anders a good friend after that, he could have told my hawk! My hawk would have done it by herself and kept him save. ( and learn more about that spells)
Who needs lyrium or arishock powder after that!?

Some people want peaceful revolutions, yes they looks better in paper or their mind, the truth is:
Is WAR, people dies from both sides and both sides have heros and champions.
My heros will be on the mage/elves side so, to the chantry: bring it on.

But Anders' murder of innocent bystanders and the one leader who was trying to resolve the issue peacefully is what starts the war in the first place.
Literally every single life lost in the war will be because of Anders.

How many good/innocent mages have the templars killed, turn into walking dead, vegetables? we don't have actual numbers thats why people like me can't show it to you, but still we find one inocent mage trying to reach the family and if we weren't there she would have died or turn into a tranquil, the rich mage-man in the hungman, how dangerous...
The young man that we saved from slavers, Merril! even as a blood mage she is NOT evil by nature, My hawk and Beth, do they all need to be forced to be in a circle, turn tranquil or killed because for what they are, Mages?

Mages are found guilty/cursed and seen as monsters even if they are nothing like that, they aren't even seen as Human/humanoids, they are seen as weapon. How dare they!

Modifié par Huntress, 25 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[rak72]

LobselVith8 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I think Karl was a rabble rouser. He & Anders/Justice were probably plotting the overthrow of the circle in those letters.  Just because a jerk teplar ordered his tranquility doesn't mean he didn't have it comming.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't trust the word of a templar who is making mages illegally tranquil and is openly proposing making every man, woman, and child of the Circles of Magi into a tranquil mage. Also, Anders becomes a member of the underground three years after Karl's death because of what happened to Karl (which was a Harrowed mage being made illegally tranquil), since he came to Kirkwall because of what Karl was telling him about the Kirkwall Circle. Are you telling me the same Anders who thought it was a bad idea for all the Circles to break free from the Chantry because of the threat of death was conspiracing to overthrow them a few weeks later? Anders became so determined to free all mages because of what Karl told him about the Gallows, and utimately became a part of the underground to free Kirkwall mages because he failed Karl.

It's not the same Anders at all.  By the time we meet Anders in Kirkwall, DAA Anders is long gone - I see no sign of our lovable old friend in thins game.  This Anders is already an abomination with "justice" intent on overthrowing the circle.