1207 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Grand Cleric could do with Meredith as she pleased, the Grand Cleric would be the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

Everyone in Kirkwall, however, recognizes that the political reality is that Meredith is the most powerful, and the Champion the second. Whatever the Grand Cleric's place in that order should have been is irrelevant to what is.

The Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine, and even the codex on Elthina acknowledges that she is Meredith's superior. Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium trade and Elthina could call on the Divine and the Knight-Vigilant if there's any sort of insubordination, we see that instead Elthina does nothing despite the fact that she is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in this part of the Free Marches, but does nothing with her authority. She makes it clear she's expecting the Maker to handle it, despite the fact that it's against what the Chantry actually preaches (that he abandoned humanity).

Authority =/= power. This is a very important point, so important that yours is long since lost..

The Grand Cleric, the Divine, the Maker himself? They may have authority over Meredith, but they don't have power. All the authority in the world is ultimately irrelevant if the power doesn't follow it.

Meredith is the power in Kirkwall. The characters know this. The politicians know this. The very loading screens mention this. Who doesn't have the power in Kirkwall? The Divine. And the Grand Cleric. And the Maker. If any of these people had the power to force Meredith into compliance, they would be the most powerful people in Kirkwall. ANd yet they are not.

Appealing to higher legal authority only matters in so much as anyone accepts it. Appealing, in and of itself, is not power.

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

It's not the same Anders at all.  By the time we meet Anders in Kirkwall, DAA Anders is long gone - I see no sign of our lovable old friend in thins game.  This Anders is already an abomination with "justice" intent on overthrowing the circle.

He wants to see the Circle gone in Year Seven. After the "Tranquil Solution," he thinks speaking to Grand Cleric Elthina would be a good idea because maybe she'll be willing to stop the plight of the mages and the abuses going on, but Elthina doesn't do anything about it. Even Ser Thrask and his renegade templars want to see the Knight-Commander overthrown. Alain's entire reason for siding specifically with Thrask is because he wants to see Meredith removed as the dictator of Kirkwall and the Knight-Commander. Anders becomes a part of the mage underground three years after Karl's death. All he does before that is help heal people at his clinic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Or, to reword it, she'll do whatever is asked of her, so long as she isn't asked to stop. At which point she will stop listening, and then you have no control at all.

That really does not sound like the kind of person you want in Kirkwall.

The Divine is in the unfortunate position of being unable to easily remove Meredith whether she's delicate or not, while also having to balance that Meredith herself isn't the real antagonist while focusing on Meredith will ruin focus against that antagonist.

A position she brought on herself in the first place for allowing Meredith to become this powerful.
Furthermore, that's assuming that Meredith's Templars are willing to join her to fight the Chantry. Why would they? Other than a few idiots, I don't see many Templars actually refusing a direct order from the Divine, at least when it comes to removing Meredith. Not to mention the amount of Templar dissidents Meredith created. Templars are chosen for their zeal and unwavering loyalty to the Chantry. Not to their commander nor to principles.
So I don't see presenting Meredith with her resignation as difficult to pull off, and it's certainly worth the risk.

And when Meredith alienates the populace who for the first time start spitting on Templar faces and help mage dissidents (since Act 2), pisses off the nobility (probably before Act 1, clearly in Act 3), angers the guards and even manages to make a number of her Templars hate her or question her (including a hardliner  like Cullen. Since Act 2), I'd very much argue that keeping someone like this around is only helping the other "real" antagonist.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 01:03 .

[KateKane]

Huntress wrote...

KateKane wrote...

Huntress wrote...

I am not considering Anders a good friend after that, he could have told my hawk! My hawk would have done it by herself and kept him save. ( and learn more about that spells)
Who needs lyrium or arishock powder after that!?

Some people want peaceful revolutions, yes they looks better in paper or their mind, the truth is:
Is WAR, people dies from both sides and both sides have heros and champions.
My heros will be on the mage/elves side so, to the chantry: bring it on.

But Anders' murder of innocent bystanders and the one leader who was trying to resolve the issue peacefully is what starts the war in the first place.
Literally every single life lost in the war will be because of Anders.

How many good/innocent mages have the templars killed, turn into walking dead, vegetables? we don't have actual numbers thats why people like me can't show it to you, but still we find one inocent mage trying to reach the family and if we weren't there she would have died or turn into a tranquil, the rich mage-man in the hungman, how dangerous...
The young man that we saved from slavers, Merril! even as a blood mage she is NOT evil by nature, My hawk and Beth, do they all need to be forced to be in a circle, turn tranquil or killed because for what they are, Mages?

Mages are found guilty/cursed and seen as monsters even if they are nothing like that, they aren't even seen as Human/humanoids, they are seen as weapon. How dare they!

But it isn't about the mages at all. It's about what they may become.
Every mage is vulnerable to the demons of the Fade, and most people are utterly helpless against the wrath of an abomination.
That is why mages must be controlled.

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Authority =/= power. This is a very important point, so important that yours is long since lost..

You mean the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, who can call on the Divine if there's an issue and governs the southern Free Marches, has no power? Are you being serious?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Meredith is the power in Kirkwall. The characters know this. The politicians know this. The very loading screens mention this. Who doesn't have the power in Kirkwall? The Divine. And the Grand Cleric. And the Maker. If any of these people had the power to force Meredith into compliance, they would be the most powerful people in Kirkwall. ANd yet they are not.

Meredith has power because Elthina does nothing to curb the person who is subordinate to her.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Appealing to higher legal authority only matters in so much as anyone accepts it. Appealing, in and of itself, is not power.

Elthina does nothing about the situation with Meredith, which is the problem.

[Rifneno]

KateKane wrote...

This wasn't an act of war, it was an act of terrorism. 
And the mage's lives didn't truly get threatened until said act of terrorism.

I don't even know where to begin with that. Is this a new tactic, where you make a statement so outlandish that the opposition will just walk away rather than explain the entire plot in painstaking detail? Because it's working.

Swing and a miss with that rape metaphor.

Yeah, you're right. I should apologize to rapists everywhere for comparing them to the Chantry.

The blood mages Hawke encounters generally attack him/her on sight, or wait until a better moment to do so. Or perhaps they just turn into abominations and start killing people. They are all selfly endanging every around them.

And 3 out of every 5 people Hawke encounters are gang members. At best. Hawke encounters hordes of dragons, but I can't remember one farmer. Clearly a day in the life of the protagonist is an accurate depiction of everyday life.

Such behavior is exactly why the Circle exists and why Meredith's harsh methods are needed in the hellhole that is Kirkwall

Cause vs. effect, in a Japanese death match! This Sunday, only on PAY PER VIEW!

What am I asuuming?
It strikes me as unlikely that Orsino had never practiced blood magic, given his close ties to a powerful blood mage and the fact that he knew how to fuse a bunch of corpses into his body to become a monster.

Err. You just answered your own question. You're assuming Orsino never practiced blood magic before. There is no hard evidence either way, and there is circumstantial evidence both ways.

rak72 wrote...

I think Karl was a rabble rouser. He & Anders/Justice were probably plotting the overthrow of the circle in those letters.  Just because a jerk teplar ordered his tranquility doesn't mean he didn't have it comming.

That would warrant a long response about how there's not even a hint of that being true.  Fortunately, you already discredited yourself with that stuff about "murdering the poor tranquil guy" when he was literally begging Anders to kill him.  So, thanks for that.  Saves a lot of typing.

KateKane wrote...

A mage who took part in a conspiracy to take down Meredith and blackmail Hawke and another who was consorting with an abomination.

Meredith?  You mean the templar who was driven insane by an ancient idol that she purchased illegally and almost certainly was intending to use for her drug addiction?  That Meredith?  Because half of her own templars took part in a conspiracy to take her down.  I guess we should Annul the templars too.  BRB, getting a chainsaw.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On the basis that the Chantry should be controlling the Templars, Anders is justified in attacking the Chantry while it is not, in fact, controlling the Templars.

Your conjecture about her having lost control is nothing more than your opinion, which you have not provided the least bit of proof for.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power. 

Just  how much history do you no, I wonder? The funny thing about heirarchies is that the top is only in charge as long as the subordinate elements consent. This is basis of revolutions and coups: when subordinate elements realize that the leaders rely on them to stay in power, and not the other way, subordinate groups (the Workers, the Common People, the Police, or even the Army) can and historically often have seized power from their bosses. Leaders whose power depends on a subordinate element are particularly vulnerable to that subordinate element remaining obedient, and are exceptionally powerless when it isn't.

The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3.

If the Grand Cleric could do with Meredith as she pleased, the Grand Cleric would be the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

Everyone in Kirkwall, however, recognizes that the political reality is that Meredith is the most powerful, and the Champion the second. Whatever the Grand Cleric's place in that order should have been is irrelevant to what is.

Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering?  We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control.  Thrask could have done this also. 

The Divine's concerns aren't on Meredith, but on the powers behind the threat that Meredith is behind. Marching on Kirkwall

How do we know that Anders really set that bomb?

1-He claimed so.
2-No one else did.
3-We helped him do it.

Sorry The Divine and The Grand Cleric should have been concerned with all of it.  The Templars and Mages both being out of control in the Free Marches.  Other countries were starting to take notice with Alistair even showing up and Leliana.  Also, if your hawke clicks on people standing around after the opening of Act 3 citizens of Kirkwall are begging Hawke to become Viscount.  Aveline is pressing Hawke hard on becoming Viscount and so is Alistair offer a big threat that Meredith is a threat.  Everyone see it.  It's clear to me nobody wants Meredith in power.  Even Cullen takes a stand against her at the end.

Anders at no time admits that he set that bomb.  Once again his dialogue is that he accepted Justice into his soul allowing Justice inside him altering him forever, and that is the only thing that he admits before Hawke decides to kill him or not.  If you don't believe me pull it up on youtube and take a look. We helped Anders gather ingredients for something and Anders said it was to try and seperate him from Justice.  Some Hawkes don't go along with getting Anders into the chantry so that isn't a reason for every Hawke.  I also said the likelyhood is that Anders did set the explosives; but, Meredith used some type of magic and ritual to make bronze statues come alive too or did you forget that part. Templars in the courtyard of the gallows also stated Meredith was making the Templar recruits go through some type of ritual and if they failed it was implied they would die.  There were also enough Trevinter Bloodmage running around to control Anders and Meredith and maybe the Grand Cleric herself in her lack of action in dealing with the whole mess.  Even the Arishok realizes the whole city is corrupted.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Huntress wrote...

KateKane wrote...

But Anders' murder of innocent bystanders and the one leader who was trying to resolve the issue peacefully is what starts the war in the first place.
Literally every single life lost in the war will be because of Anders.

How many good/innocent mages have the templars killed, turn into walking dead, vegetables? we don't have actual numbers thats why people like me can't show it to you, but still we find one inocent mage trying to reach the family and if we weren't there she would have died or turn into a tranquil, the rich mage-man in the hungman, how dangerous...
The young man that we saved from slavers, Merril! even as a blood mage she is NOT evil by nature, My hawk and Beth, do they all need to be forced to be in a circle, turn tranquil or killed because for what they are, Mages?

Mages are found guilty/cursed and seen as monsters even if they are nothing like that, they aren't even seen as Human/humanoids, they are seen as weapon. How dare they!

One can justify any number of crimes and atrocities that way. Actually you can justify keeping the Circle that way as well. I believe that is in fact Meredith's justification. If "innocents must always suffer for the greater good" are the only choices, then to me supporting the Chantry against the mages easily the lesser of two evils. More people will suffer and die if the Circle Mages are left unsupervised than if they aren't.

[KateKane]

Rifneno wrote...

Meredith?  You mean the templar who was driven insane by an ancient idol that she purchased illegally and almost certainly was intending to use for her drug addiction?  That Meredith?  Because half of her own templars took part in a conspiracy to take her down.  I guess we should Annul the templars too.  BRB, getting a chainsaw.

Nobody knew about the idol until the final battle. And instead of trying to appeal to the Chantry or the people of Kirkwall, they went straight for the kidnapping, extortion, murder, and conspiracy route.

If a bunch of templars had gone out and said "look, our boss is nuts" they probably would have done a better job of making some changes.

Modifié par KateKane, 25 mai 2011 - 01:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Or, to reword it, she'll do whatever is asked of her, so long as she isn't asked to stop. At which point she will stop listening, and then you have no control at all.

That really does not sound like the kind of person you want in Kirkwall.

It's not. Neither is anyone going insane. But it's the person you have in Kirkwall once it became a problem.

Now, Meredith wasn't always a problem though. In Act 1, even during Act 2, it may well have been that she'd step aside if ordered... but why would she be? There wasn't a particular crisis requiring delicate handling, let alone one of Meredith's own partical creation. Meredith was exceptionally powerful, but it was the result of a Good Thing (overthrowing the guy who tried to throw the Templars out), and since then she'd been hard but not unreasonable vis-a-vis a real problem. In the interim, I don't doubt that Meredith used her influence in a lot of ways agreeable to the Chantry. So long as she agreesto follow, how much power she has is irrelevant, and the more the better.

It wasn't until after the Qunari Invasion that Meredith really became a problem worth removing... but that's also when she became her most powerful, again for doing a Good Thing.

A position she brought on herself in the first place for allowing Meredith to become this powerful.

Salami defense: when should she have stepped in? Should Meredith have been kicked out before she made Templar Commander? Well, she wasn't even Templar Commander then. Should she have been kicked out after overthrowing the bad Viscount? Why? During Act 1? Act 2? Immediately after helping liberate the city from the Heathens, and giving the Chantry unparalleled influence over a major city-state in a period where the Chantry sees increasing rivals opposing its home-state of Orlais?

When, exactly, should the Chantry have removed a successful Commander and bitten the diplomatic/political costs of doing so?

Furthermore, that's assuming that Meredith's Templars are willing to join her to fight the Chantry. Why would they? Other than a few idiots, I dont' see many Templars actually refusing a direct order from the Divine. Not to mention the amount of Templar dissidents Meredith created. Templars are chosen for their zeal and unwavering loyalty to the Chantry. Not to their commander nor to principles.

Why does any rebel group rebel against an authority? Why do militaries turn against their own people in a crackdown, or follow orders and assist in a coup?  For the cause, for the leader, for the fact that they're conditioned to obey orders, for the fear of not going along with their fellows, for a multitude of reasons. There doesn't need to be one universal reason. One thing to remember is that Meredith did keep a number of hardliners as bad/worse than her around, while the post-DA2 Templar Rebellion just demonstrates further that there was a latent undercurrent of Templars willing to ignore the Chantry for their real duties.

In terms of dissidents, that's a value call. Everyone political makes enemies, and Templars do to regardless of power. It's not the matter of dissidents, but rather who, what sort, and when it outweighs the good.

And when Meredith alienates the populace who for the first time start spitting on Templar faces and help mage dissidents (since Act 2), pisses off the nobility (probably before Act 1, clearly in Act 3), angers the guards and even manages to make a number of her Tempalrs hate her or question her (including a hardliner  like Cullen. Since Act 2), I'd very much argue that keeping someone like this around is only helping the other "real" antagonist.

I don't know if we could call this the first time there's been an anti-Templar movement, or that she had a critical-mass in Act 2.

The issue is, though, that while Act 2 may have been the point at which Meredith was starting to be a problem (the first signs of the idol), she wasn't the dominant problem to be considered. The Qunari were. After Act 2, however, she had full power, and they removal really wasn't feasible.

[Huntress]

KateKane wrote...

Huntress wrote...

KateKane wrote...

Huntress wrote...

I am not considering Anders a good friend after that, he could have told my hawk! My hawk would have done it by herself and kept him save. ( and learn more about that spells)
Who needs lyrium or arishock powder after that!?

Some people want peaceful revolutions, yes they looks better in paper or their mind, the truth is:
Is WAR, people dies from both sides and both sides have heros and champions.
My heros will be on the mage/elves side so, to the chantry: bring it on.

But Anders' murder of innocent bystanders and the one leader who was trying to resolve the issue peacefully is what starts the war in the first place.
Literally every single life lost in the war will be because of Anders.

How many good/innocent mages have the templars killed, turn into walking dead, vegetables? we don't have actual numbers thats why people like me can't show it to you, but still we find one inocent mage trying to reach the family and if we weren't there she would have died or turn into a tranquil, the rich mage-man in the hungman, how dangerous...
The young man that we saved from slavers, Merril! even as a blood mage she is NOT evil by nature, My hawk and Beth, do they all need to be forced to be in a circle, turn tranquil or killed because for what they are, Mages?

Mages are found guilty/cursed and seen as monsters even if they are nothing like that, they aren't even seen as Human/humanoids, they are seen as weapon. How dare they!

But it isn't about the mages at all. It's about what they may become.
Every mage is vulnerable to the demons of the Fade, and most people are utterly helpless against the wrath of an abomination.
That is why mages must be controlled.

Just by that view meredith should have been sent to jail, she had became unstable, she didn't obey the priest, she wanted to kill innocent mages that in no way were responsable for blowing up a chantry and yet she is NOT seen as the MONSTER that she really is.. amazing!

Any can become vulnerable to rage, pride,vengance and by doing so they can be seen as monster by others as Meredith shows by her actions.

Templars forcing the tranquility how should we call them? MONSTERS!!!! thats what they are.
Shouldn't they be put on prision, killed on sight?  Just to keep safe the innocent mages already traped/prisioner/jailed in a circle?

[Xilizhra]

Salami defense: when should she have stepped in? Should Meredith have been kicked out before she made Templar Commander? Well, she wasn't even Templar Commander then. Should she have been kicked out after overthrowing the bad Viscount? Why? During Act 1? Act 2? Immediately after helping liberate the city from the Heathens, and giving the Chantry unparalleled influence over a major city-state in a period where the Chantry sees increasing rivals opposing its home-state of Orlais?

When, exactly, should the Chantry have removed a successful Commander and bitten the diplomatic/political costs of doing so?

She should never have assumed the office in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Authority =/= power. This is a very important point, so important that yours is long since lost..

You mean the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, who can call on the Divine if there's an issue and governs the southern Free Marches, has no power? Are you being serious?

Is the concept of a coup so foreign to you? While that speaks well to the quality of your upbringing, it doesn't speak well for your memory of history.

The Templars are the primary means of power for the Divine and the Grand Cleric to assert their power. If the Templars are going rogue, then the very power associated with the leadership is now, in fact, the power to be matched. This is the same delimma that faces the nominal civilian government of Pakistan: the military, the primary means of enforcing authority, is independent in and of itself from the overall civilian control.

Meredith has power because Elthina does nothing to curb the person who is subordinate to her.

Elthina has no power to curbstop Meredith because Meredith is the curbstomping power traditionally available to the Chantry.

Elthina does nothing about the situation with Meredith, which is the problem.

Elthina can do nothing about the situation with Meredith without sparking a bigger problem, which is the problem.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

She should never have assumed the office in the first place.

And the last Viscount shouldn't have executed the person she replaced. Your point, besides indulging in 20-20 hindsight fantasy?

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She should never have assumed the office in the first place.

And the last Viscount shouldn't have executed the person she replaced. Your point, besides indulging in 20-20 hindsight fantasy?

Why didn't you just call the arguments for removing her earlier 20-20 hindsight fantasy, then?

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, who can call on the Divine if there's an issue and governs the southern Free Marches, has no power? Are you being serious?

Is the concept of a coup so foreign to you? While that speaks well to the quality of your upbringing, it doesn't speak well for your memory of history.

Why do you continue to ignore that Elthina didn't do anything about Meredith despite her position as Grand Cleric?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Templars are the primary means of power for the Divine and the Grand Cleric to assert their power. If the Templars are going rogue, then the very power associated with the leadership is now, in fact, the power to be matched. This is the same delimma that faces the nominal civilian government of Pakistan: the military, the primary means of enforcing authority, is independent in and of itself from the overall civilian control.

Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium supply to the templars, I can imagine one way for Elthina to reign Meredith in if she wanted to, but she doesn't, because she expects the Maker to do her job for her.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith has power because Elthina does nothing to curb the person who is subordinate to her.

Elthina has no power to curbstop Meredith because Meredith is the curbstomping power traditionally available to the Chantry.

As long as you ignore that she governs more than simply Kirkwall and is the not only loved by the people, but the highest ranking member of the Chantry.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elthina does nothing about the situation with Meredith, which is the problem.

Elthina can do nothing about the situation with Meredith without sparking a bigger problem, which is the problem.

The problem is that Elthina does nothing. She never says she tried to do something and failed, she says the Maker will handle it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Now, Meredith wasn't always a problem though. In Act 1, even during Act 2, it may well have been that she'd step aside if ordered... but why would she be?

Because even in Act 2, we see the populace sympathizing with mages for the first time in history and not cooperating with Templars. That alone is enough to remove her.

The roots of the problem were all before Act 1 (Meredith's involvement in politics). To wait for it to explode by a small push in order to deal with it is the mark of an inneffective and unresponsive (and in this case, aging) institution. Add to that the delicate and critical situation in Kirkwall in particular, and Thedas in general at around that time, and keeping Meredith in power is an incompetent move.

Salami defense: when should she have stepped in? Should Meredith have been kicked out before she made Templar Commander?

Not make her KC in the first place. Why? For personal reasons first and foremost, Meredith has history with mages that may cloud her judgement.
She'd be an excellent Templar enforcer. But a KC is a much more delicate job.

Also, a KC in this particular context needed to have some political savvy to stabilize the situation and manage a withdrawal of Templars from politics, while making guarantees that nothing similar to the previous Viscount would happen again. The Chantry needed to make sure that the KC they are appointing displays these qualities. Instead, they pick Meredith.

Immediately after helping liberate the city from the Heathens, and giving the Chantry unparalleled influence over a major city-state in a period where the Chantry sees increasing rivals opposing its home-state of Orlais?

An untenable situation seeing how everyone is pissed off at Meredith. And a very imprudent one.

When, exactly, should the Chantry have removed a successful Commander and bitten the diplomatic/political costs of doing so?

Meredith has been incompetent ever since Act 1. The situation with mages had been constantly deteriorating and on top of that, she managed to ****** almost everyone off including her own Templars.

One thing to remember is that Meredith did keep a number of hardliners as bad/worse than her around, while the post-DA2 Templar Rebellion just demonstrates further that there was a latent undercurrent of Templars willing to ignore the Chantry for their real duties.

Post DA2 is after a major event which is a mage revolution. A simple removal of a KC is not the same thing. Especially not when Meredith is not displaying any real competence in this matter in the first place, but is only helping makig it worse.

In terms of dissidents, that's a value call. Everyone political makes enemies, and Templars do to regardless of power. It's not the matter of dissidents, but rather who, what sort, and when it outweighs the good.

But to make almost everyone a political enemy? That's incompetence.
And true enough, it's only with extreme difficulty that she managed to defeat the mage underground, and it was in vain considerng what happens afterwards.

I don't know if we could call this the first time there's been an anti-Templar movement

Cullen said so and I am inclined to believe him. I do not think that the populace ever looked on the Templsrs with as much disdain as now. Usually, they look at them as heroes.

The issue is, though, that while Act 2 may have been the point at which Meredith was starting to be a problem (the first signs of the idol), she wasn't the dominant problem to be considered. The Qunari were. After Act 2, however, she had full power, and they removal really wasn't feasible.

The source of the problem were before Act 1 and it's her involvement in politics, when she is clearly not suited for it. The symptoms become clear in Act 2.

And institution that cannot distinguish between root causes and symptoms particularily when it involves their most important Circle, is really one that should go away and be replaced by something more efficient.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 01:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She should never have assumed the office in the first place.

And the last Viscount shouldn't have executed the person she replaced. Your point, besides indulging in 20-20 hindsight fantasy?

Why didn't you just call the arguments for removing her earlier 20-20 hindsight fantasy, then?

I... beleive I did? Just now? In response to you arguing that she should have been removed before she ever began?

Seriously. Chill. Other people have been arguing other aspects relating to her quality later (such as removing her in Act 3). I responded in respect to those. You made a silly position about removing her for bad quality her before she ever had a problem signalling such.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She should never have assumed the office in the first place.

And the last Viscount shouldn't have executed the person she replaced. Your point, besides indulging in 20-20 hindsight fantasy?

Point is, the Chantry should have placed a more competent KC capable of handling this delicate situation. And is rational enough to avoid clouding judegment. Meredith is too single minded and obsessed with mages that while she'd make a good Templar grunt, she's a horrible KC especially in a place like Kirkwall. 

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She should never have assumed the office in the first place.

And the last Viscount shouldn't have executed the person she replaced. Your point, besides indulging in 20-20 hindsight fantasy?

Why didn't you just call the arguments for removing her earlier 20-20 hindsight fantasy, then?

I... beleive I did? Just now? In response to you arguing that she should have been removed before she ever began?

Seriously. Chill. Other people have been arguing other aspects relating to her quality later (such as removing her in Act 3). I responded in respect to those. You made a silly position about removing her for bad quality her before she ever had a problem signalling such.

Her problem was her horrendous emotional scarring. Unless the Chantry doesn't keep background files on its templars (if not, why?), they should have seen an enormous psychological red flag for her being in this position.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Authority =/= power. This is a very important point, so important that yours is long since lost..

You mean the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, who can call on the Divine if there's an issue and governs the southern Free Marches, has no power? Are you being serious?

Is the concept of a coup so foreign to you? While that speaks well to the quality of your upbringing, it doesn't speak well for your memory of history.

The Templars are the primary means of power for the Divine and the Grand Cleric to assert their power. If the Templars are going rogue, then the very power associated with the leadership is now, in fact, the power to be matched. This is the same delimma that faces the nominal civilian government of Pakistan: the military, the primary means of enforcing authority, is independent in and of itself from the overall civilian control.

Meredith has power because Elthina does nothing to curb the person who is subordinate to her.

Elthina has no power to curbstop Meredith because Meredith is the curbstomping power traditionally available to the Chantry.

Elthina does nothing about the situation with Meredith, which is the problem.

Elthina can do nothing about the situation with Meredith without sparking a bigger problem, which is the problem.

The Seekers which Cassandra and Leliana are a part of within the Chantry this is the true power of the Divine not just the Templars.  Therefore when Leliana comes to town Elthina doesn't even agree to meet with Leliana herself.  Instead she sends Sebastian and Hawke and who do they run into inside the Viscounts Throneroom???  Resolutionist who are influenced by the Trevinter Imperium and we have to fight Trevinter Bloodmages in the Throneroom.  All the Grand Cleric had to do was appeal to Leliana and the Divine for reinforcements.  Better to cut a snake off at its head for the said problems to get out of control where nobody can handle them.  Due to the Grand Cleric's  lack of decision making skills she has caused all of Thedas into a war between the Templar and Mages.  Cassandra even comments on how many people are going to die if she doesn't find out what truly happened and presses Varric for his story,.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you continue to ignore that Elthina didn't do anything about Meredith despite her position as Grand Cleric?

I don't. I point out that despite being a Grand Cleric, Elthina doesn't have the most power in the city, and that a consequence of not having the most power is not having power over the most powerful.

Why do you ignore this critical piece of lore?

Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium supply to the templars, I can imagine one way for Elthina to reign Meredith in if she wanted to, but she doesn't, because she expects the Maker to do her job for her.

And yet, by that argument the Templars couldn't go rogue after DA2 either. Yet they do: clearly, your imagination is lacking in some critical relevance further down the road, so it can well be that it's lacking in this context as well.

Now, we could imaginesome other alternatives: that there are political costs with trying a lyrium blockade that are disproportionate. That lyrium smuggling has become too widespread to allow those controls to remain effective. That Orzamar and Ferelden (under that notorious mage sympathizer no less) might see it in their interest to help in lyrium smuggling to create a Chantry schism. That the Templars in the city have a significant stockpile of Lyrium.

As long as you ignore that she governs more than simply Kirkwall and is the not only loved by the people, but the highest ranking member of the Chantry.

And how many divisions has the pope?

Love doesn't turn away swords. Neither does the Chantry-Pope. Now, the Chantry pope might send in lots of other people with swords... but that's creating the very problem to be avoided in the first place, and this time towards fighting yourself.

Moreover, there is no zero-sum: the people like the Grand Cleric, but they also by and large support the Templars. The populace who doesn't like the Templars also by and large don't like the Chantry. People who like the Grand Cleric don't by default want to side against Meredith.

The problem is that Elthina does nothing. She never says she tried to do something and failed, she says the Maker will handle it.

The problem is that Elthina doesn't have the power to make any action decisive. Trying and failing to strike a new balance is worse than leaving an undesirable balance, especially when you only have one chance to move.

[Huntress]

Remember the Nobles and trash became very upset with meredith and the way things were going.
This alone make me believe the tranquility system was been inforced on the mages by the templars and some of this mages had powerful families, living in kirkwall.
Is true we only meet one or two character/s that is helping mages, but who is to say that the rich people weren't giving gold to the resistance? Or are in favor with it?

[Dean_the_Young]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

The Seekers which Cassandra and Leliana are a part of within the Chantry this is the true power of the Divine not just the Templars.

The Seekers are the Chantry's power within the Templars. They are an internal-control function... but they are only effective as long as the Templars obey them.

All the Grand Cleric had to do was appeal to Leliana and the Divine for reinforcements.

The Divine wasn't offering to march against the Templars. The Divine March against the city was going to be against the blood mage infestation. Not against Meredith.

Better to cut a snake off at its head for the said problems to get out of control where nobody can handle them.  Due to the Grand Cleric's  lack of decision making skills she has caused all of Thedas into a war between the Templar and Mages.

If there was a Divine March, you would have had the exact same anti-Magic crusade to spark such a war. The Divine March wasn't an avoidance of war: it was going to be another form of the war.

  Cassandra even comments on how many people are going to die if she doesn't find out what truly happened and presses Varric for his story,.

And people were going to die if the Grand Cleric asked for a Divine March.

Which is why she didn't.

That the Grand Cleric failed to avoid a problems doesn't mean she didn't avoid others.

[Dean_the_Young]

Huntress wrote...

Remember the Nobles and trash became very upset with meredith and the way things were going.
This alone make me believe the tranquility system was been inforced on the mages by the templars and some of this mages had powerful families, living in kirkwall.
Is true we only meet one or two character/s that is helping mages, but who is to say that the rich people weren't giving gold to the resistance? Or are in favor with it?

Or, more simply, the Nobles didn't like that Meredith was stepping on their political privelages and power.

Now, between sudden new-found sympathy for the plight of the mages who have endured such for a thousand years, or a personal opposition to petty losses of political privilage...