KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Point is, the Chantry should have placed a more competent KC capable of handling this delicate situation. And is rational enough to avoid clouding judegment. Meredith is too single minded and obsessed with mages that while she'd make a good Templar grunt, she's a horrible KC especially in a place like Kirkwall.
Meredith's problem was her insanity. The Chantry's problem was the Templars being too powerful for the traditional Templary-Chantry relationship, a status unique in Kirkwall for reasons Meredith was only tangently related.Xilizhra wrote...
Her problem was her horrendous emotional scarring. Unless the Chantry doesn't keep background files on its templars (if not, why?), they should have seen an enormous psychological red flag for her being in this position.
Meredith was successful enough for decades: when did she stop?KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
And the last Viscount shouldn't have executed the person she replaced. Your point, besides indulging in 20-20 hindsight fantasy?Xilizhra wrote...
She should never have assumed the office in the first place.
Point is, the Chantry should have placed a more competent KC capable of handling this delicate situation. And is rational enough to avoid clouding judegment. Meredith is too single minded and obsessed with mages that while she'd make a good Templar grunt, she's a horrible KC especially in a place like Kirkwall.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Why do you continue to ignore that Elthina didn't do anything about Meredith despite her position as Grand Cleric?
I don't. I point out that despite being a Grand Cleric, Elthina doesn't have the most power in the city, and that a consequence of not having the most power is not having power over the most powerful.
Why do you ignore this critical piece of lore?
Dean_the_Young wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium supply to the templars, I can imagine one way for Elthina to reign Meredith in if she wanted to, but she doesn't, because she expects the Maker to do her job for her.
And yet, by that argument the Templars couldn't go rogue after DA2 either. Yet they do: clearly, your imagination is lacking in some critical relevance further down the road, so it can well be that it's lacking in this context as well.
Now, we could imaginesome other alternatives: that there are political costs with trying a lyrium blockade that are disproportionate. That lyrium smuggling has become too widespread to allow those controls to remain effective. That Orzamar and Ferelden (under that notorious mage sympathizer no less) might see it in their interest to help in lyrium smuggling to create a Chantry schism. That the Templars in the city have a significant stockpile of Lyrium.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
As long as you ignore that she governs more than simply Kirkwall and is the not only loved by the people, but the highest ranking member of the Chantry.
And how many divisions has the pope?
Love doesn't turn away swords. Neither does the Chantry-Pope. Now, the Chantry pope might send in lots of other people with swords... but that's creating the very problem to be avoided in the first place, and this time towards fighting yourself.
Moreover, there is no zero-sum: the people like the Grand Cleric, but they also by and large support the Templars. The populace who doesn't like the Templars also by and large don't like the Chantry. People who like the Grand Cleric don't by default want to side against Meredith.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The problem is that Elthina does nothing. She never says she tried to do something and failed, she says the Maker will handle it.
The problem is that Elthina doesn't have the power to make any action decisive. Trying and failing to strike a new balance is worse than leaving an undesirable balance, especially when you only have one chance to move.
In Exile wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Point is, the Chantry should have placed a more competent KC capable of handling this delicate situation. And is rational enough to avoid clouding judegment. Meredith is too single minded and obsessed with mages that while she'd make a good Templar grunt, she's a horrible KC especially in a place like Kirkwall.
How do you actually remove Meredith, though? She declared herself KC and executed the leader of Kirkwall. The templars (one would assume) backed her.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 01:56 .
ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except, of course, that she didn't have power of the Templars. At the time of the crisis, the only person with power over Meredith was... well, besides the idol, Meredith. Everyone recognizes Meredith as the most powerful political figure in the city. The Champion is the second most powerful. Whether the Grand Cleric even made it into the top three is up for debate.Vilegrim wrote...
Cutlass Jack wrote...
Vilegrim wrote...
Also if you don't want a church blown up don't put your command and control of the military in one.
It was not.
The Chantry commands the Templars, Elhina was head of the local chantry and had power over them, therefore same as the US president, she was a valid military target.
The Chantry doesn't run, organize, maintain, or dictate the Templars in Kirkwall. The Templars do that. That's been a fact of the setting since the start. The reasons for the Templars' rise to prominance in Kirkwall has extensive history behind it, with the point being that in the context of Kirkwall the intended system of Chantry control was not reality, and no one involved is under the impression that it is.
Uh, the Grand Cleric was Meredith and Orsinos boss, therefore she did have the power. The templars are under the rule of the Chantry regardless of the fact that they stole political power in Kirkwall years before. Technically, Meredith has not been voted by the citizens of Kirkwall to be their Viscount and the game never explained the actual system on how a Viscount was decided like they did with the ruling monarch of Ferelden. The title of Viscount came about from prior occupation. The Divine is over the Andrastian ruled nations, their chantries. The Grand Clerics of each nation are next in rank, the Revered Mother, Laysisters, then a novice. Templars because of their number and their outing of the previous Viscount is the only reason Meredith felt she had the power. Even though by law of the citizens of Kirkwall she didn't. Viscount Dumar didn't want to oppose the Chantry political power and followed along with Meredith to a certain extent. Meredith is the one who put Dumar in his office to begin with.
The Grand Cleric should have sent Meredith into retirement after the scene in the opening of Act 3. She was totally out of control by then. The Grand Cleric is the only one within Kirkwall that had that authority. She also had the authority to put a stop to the abuse of the Templars who weren't following chantry laws and their abuse of the mages. The Grand Cleric also mentions and realizes that Meredith is picking on Orsino and the mages she states so in her comments before she asks a templar to escort Orsino back to the Gallows. So she knew it was going on and once again she doesn't put a stop to it. She should have reigned in Meredith way before the events of Act 3. I also agree with a poster above that Meredith because of her personal family history shouldn't have ever held the position of Knight Commander of Kirkwall. Once again her goes right back to the Grand Cleric in making this decison years before.
Someone also had to report to the Divine the abuse of the Templars for the Divine to consider occupation of Kirkwall. She should have marched on Kirkwall and not informed the Grand Cleric. Maybe this is why Alistair shows up to rescue three mages and reports to the Divine the abuse the mages were suffering? We don't know. I can see Ser Cullen doing this as well and other Templars who realize Meredith is out of control. Thrask could have done this also.
How do we know that Anders really set that bomb? It's done off screen so how do we know? Just because he wanted to sneak into the Chantry doesn't mean he actually planted that bomb, he only admits to accepting justice inside him. Though he probably did plant the bomb. My last playthough I had the thought what if Meredith is the one that set that bomb with the magic from the idol somehow and not Anders? I'm sure she didn't like being told to go to her room like a good little girl in front of the citizens of Kirkwall by the Grand Cleric. Even Varric states at the ending with Cassandra it could have been the idol all along, he as good as tells Cassandra to take her pick on who she wants as villan. I can also Trevinter in the background causing havoc in the whole mess.
If Anders did set the bomb, was he justified and did I agree? Well it really depends on how I roleplay the game. Some of my Hawkes who will be mages will agree and especially with Bethany being a mage within the circle. If Carver is alive he will side with the templars. But to blow up innocent people, no I didn't agree with the method choosen and I didn't like the fact Hawke didn't have a choice in stopping what happened. I should have had the opportunity as a player in helping the save the chantry and the people within or allow it to be blown up. I never had a choice as a player and this ticked me off.
KateKane wrote...
A mage who took part in a conspiracy to take down Meredith and blackmail Hawke and another who was consorting with an abomination.LobselVith8 wrote...
KateKane wrote...
And the mage's lives didn't truly get threatened until said act of terrorism.
I think the mages like Alain and Karl would disagree.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
If someone has to ask, then no. Your position is not clear.Silfren wrote...
I believe I've already made my position clear.
Except Shepard didn't turn into a paranoid unstable tyrant. And Meredith was both even before she got the idol; that just made her worse, though quite frankly I don't know how much. I did do an analysis of her in the character forum, though, if you're interested.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Meredith's problem was her insanity. The Chantry's problem was the Templars being too powerful for the traditional Templary-Chantry relationship, a status unique in Kirkwall for reasons Meredith was only tangently related.Xilizhra wrote...
Her problem was her horrendous emotional scarring. Unless the Chantry doesn't keep background files on its templars (if not, why?), they should have seen an enormous psychological red flag for her being in this position.
This is a Dark Fantasy world, Xil. Besides the distinct lack of much the electronic infrastructure to track and create background dossiers in such a setting in which extinction events are a historically not-uncommon occurance, the catalysts for emotional pasts is pretty much a part of the genre. Meredith wasn't some PTSD patient: she was your generic 'I find strength in past failures' types. She's far better than all the Sole Survivor or Colonist Shepards from Mass Effect.
KateKane wrote...
But Anders' murder of innocent bystanders and the one leader who was trying to resolve the issue peacefully is what starts the war in the first place.Huntress wrote...
I am not considering Anders a good friend after that, he could have told my hawk! My hawk would have done it by herself and kept him save. ( and learn more about that spells)
Who needs lyrium or arishock powder after that!?
Some people want peaceful revolutions, yes they looks better in paper or their mind, the truth is:
Is WAR, people dies from both sides and both sides have heros and champions.
My heros will be on the mage/elves side so, to the chantry: bring it on.
Literally every single life lost in the war will be because of Anders.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Meredith was successful enough for decades: when did she stop?
Could be. Wasn't. But could have been.Silfren wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
If someone has to ask, then no. Your position is not clear.Silfren wrote...
I believe I've already made my position clear.
Could also be that you weren't bothering to pay attention to what I wrote. I've not been cryptic about where I stand.
errant_knight wrote...
He undid everything my Hawke had spent the entire game trying to accomplish.
KateKane wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
Meredith? You mean the templar who was driven insane by an ancient idol that she purchased illegally and almost certainly was intending to use for her drug addiction? That Meredith? Because half of her own templars took part in a conspiracy to take her down. I guess we should Annul the templars too. BRB, getting a chainsaw.
Nobody knew about the idol until the final battle. And instead of trying to appeal to the Chantry or the people of Kirkwall, they went straight for the kidnapping, extortion, murder, and conspiracy route.
If a bunch of templars had gone out and said "look, our boss is nuts" they probably would have done a better job of making some changes.
Make up your mind, then: is Meredith's problem her horrendous emotional scarring, or becoming a crazy person under the influence of an object years later?Xilizhra wrote...
Except Shepard didn't turn into a paranoid unstable tyrant. And Meredith was both even before she got the idol; that just made her worse, though quite frankly I don't know how much. I did do an analysis of her in the character forum, though, if you're interested.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Meredith's problem was her insanity. The Chantry's problem was the Templars being too powerful for the traditional Templary-Chantry relationship, a status unique in Kirkwall for reasons Meredith was only tangently related.Xilizhra wrote...
Her problem was her horrendous emotional scarring. Unless the Chantry doesn't keep background files on its templars (if not, why?), they should have seen an enormous psychological red flag for her being in this position.
This is a Dark Fantasy world, Xil. Besides the distinct lack of much the electronic infrastructure to track and create background dossiers in such a setting in which extinction events are a historically not-uncommon occurance, the catalysts for emotional pasts is pretty much a part of the genre. Meredith wasn't some PTSD patient: she was your generic 'I find strength in past failures' types. She's far better than all the Sole Survivor or Colonist Shepards from Mass Effect.
I'll ask again, KoP: when? A generic list over a long period of time isn't an argument about when she should be pulled off the job. It's a very good argument as to why, but that's not what we're focusing on.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Meredith was successful enough for decades: when did she stop?
- situation with mages deterioting constantly.
- the populace pissed off at Templars
- nobles pissed off
- guards pissed off
- a number of her own Templars pissed off.
- blood mage slavers, demons, and then even gangs with blood mages running loose in the city
Meredith's career is one of constant failure and deterioration of the conflict. Barring a military victory over the Qunari (which is really not that significant in regards to her real primary role).
She is not the only incompetent one out there however, I can't really recall any DA2 character that is remotely competent.
Both were problems. She started bad and got worse; I wouldn't call her initially insane, but the idol only amplified what was already there.Make up your mind, then: is Meredith's problem her horrendous emotional scarring, or becoming a crazy person under the influence of an object years later?
No, Meredith wasn't a paranoid unstable tyrant before she got the idol, unless that's your analytical hyperbole for 'hardliner with influence.'
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
errant_knight wrote...
He undid everything my Hawke had spent the entire game trying to accomplish.
No offense (this is to all Hawkes), but what did Hawke ever do really? Concretely?
At best, she was playing ball between Elthina, Meredith and Orsino, while being the ball.
She didn't do anything for Anders to undo.
Except what was there wasn't particularly insane by any measure we have.Xilizhra wrote...
Both were problems. She started bad and got worse; I wouldn't call her initially insane, but the idol only amplified what was already there.
Except they aren't. Meredith in no sense runs the city as a classical tyrant until well into the game, nor does she come off as insane until after she gets the idol.And "paranoid unstable tyrant" and "hardliner with influence" are pretty much synonymous in this case.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 mai 2011 - 02:10 .
Tyrannical over the Circle, not the city as a whole. And no, she's not insane initially (at least not legally), but is paranoid and unstable still.Except they aren't. Meredith in no sense runs the city as a classical tyrant until well into the game, nor does she come off as insane until after she gets the idol.
Unless this is going to be one of your 'X is EVIL' arguments again, on the grounds it is because its seems nasty enough to you as to make no difference. In which case, no counter argument is possible.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Seekers are the Chantry's power within the Templars. They are an internal-control function... but they are only effective as long as the Templars obey them.ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
The Seekers which Cassandra and Leliana are a part of within the Chantry this is the true power of the Divine not just the Templars.The Divine wasn't offering to march against the Templars. The Divine March against the city was going to be against the blood mage infestation. Not against Meredith.All the Grand Cleric had to do was appeal to Leliana and the Divine for reinforcements.
If there was a Divine March, you would have had the exact same anti-Magic crusade to spark such a war. The Divine March wasn't an avoidance of war: it was going to be another form of the war.Better to cut a snake off at its head for the said problems to get out of control where nobody can handle them. Due to the Grand Cleric's lack of decision making skills she has caused all of Thedas into a war between the Templar and Mages.
And people were going to die if the Grand Cleric asked for a Divine March.Cassandra even comments on how many people are going to die if she doesn't find out what truly happened and presses Varric for his story,.
Which is why she didn't.
That the Grand Cleric failed to avoid a problems doesn't mean she didn't avoid others.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'll ask again, KoP: when? A generic list over a long period of time isn't an argument about when she should be pulled off the job. It's a very good argument as to why, but that's not what we're focusing on.
By the time Meredith has pissed off most the groups you mentioned, it's Act 3. At which point, crazy or not, she has the power, and is certainly in the mindset to refuse to back down.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 02:18 .
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