1207 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As always, you repeat yourself rather than address questions. Is this really going to be your intellectual honesty here? Say the word, and I'll stop wasting your time, I promise.

I'm addressing the fact that Elthina didn't do anything, and openly admits she expects the Maker to do something about the situation, while you're professing she couldn't do anything despite being Meredith's superior. Where is your intellectual honesty when you're ignoring the facts?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Uh, what? I was discussing the possible invalidations for your assertion that a Lyrium blockade would stop Meredith. Not only aren't you addressing what you quoted, you aren't even tangently related to what I was quoting.

We don't know whether the lyrium supply has been blocked with the templars - you're addressing a situation we have relatively little information on, and using it to propose why no one in the Chantry does anything about Meredith becoming the dictator of Kirkwall.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There are some templars. and some guards. And some nobles.

And then there are some pro-democracy activists in China. That doesn't mean there's a budding democratic revolution just waiting to happen.

If you're going to raise that there's a critical mass of people waiting to revolt against Meredith, it's up to you to prove they're capable of it... and that such a revolt, itself, won't set off the powerder keg. Because historically? Revolutions devour their parents.

I'm addressing that people want Meredith gone, and that there would be support for Elthina if she actually did her job as Grand Cleric.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If she can't make a decisive action to resolve a problem, and a failed action will only inflame a problem, there is no basis for claiming she must act and that not doing so is a failure. When the alternatives are worse, change is not good.

The Knight-Commander has become a dictator over the entire city-state. If she's not capable of doing her job, she shouldn't be the Grand Cleric anymore, and she should have stepped down.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 mai 2011 - 02:14 .

[Sister Helen]

I sometimes have difficulty with explaining my point, so please forgive the awkwardness of this post.  I'm trying to keep my vocabulary more secular than religious.  Sometimes the concepts don't translate well.

Elthina is a "blessed" or a "venerable," a person of principle, who leads by the example of how she lives her life and behaves towards others.  There is a tendency to think of these people as "saints," but many times these individuals are not religious. 

When these individuals are described, it is usually as "humble," "modest," "devoted," and often as having a "childlike innocence or joy." Some live as recluses, others are imprisoned or exiled; and still others are quietly disappeared by the governments with which they respectfully disagree.  It is rare that one of these folks rise to some level of political power, and when it happens (usually after years of imprisonment or exile and always in their middle- to old-age), they are known as peacemakers.  If I recited a few of the more famous examples, many readers over the age of 30 would recognize the names -

"Venerables" don't behave like most people, because, well, they're not like most people.  Very few are able to withdraw from a conflict or seek a peaceful resolution when tempers erupt and weapons are raised; it is our nature to fight back when struck, to take a stand, to say, "I am righteous, and my enemy is not." 

But venerables - by their nature - do not fight or encourage others to fight; they try to lead people to a peaceful solution or civil compromise.  They tend to submit peacefully to authority, even when they disagree with that authority's principles or behavior.  Venerables see the best in us, rather than the worst in us, and never lose faith in us, though we sorely test them.

Just as it makes no sense to get mad at the fabled scorpion who stings the turtle while crossing the river -- it is his nature  -- it makes no sense to get mad at Elthina for being a venerable -- it is her nature.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As always, you repeat yourself rather than address questions. Is this really going to be your intellectual honesty here? Say the word, and I'll stop wasting your time, I promise.

I'm addressing the fact that Elthina didn't do anything, and openly admits she expects the Maker to do something about the situation, while you're professing she couldn't do anything despite being Meredith's superior. Where is your intellectual honesty when you're ignoring the facts?

And... we're done.

Thanks for the reminder, kid.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Both were problems. She started bad and got worse; I wouldn't call her initially insane, but the idol only amplified what was already there.

Except what was there wasn't particularly insane by any measure we have.

And "paranoid unstable tyrant" and "hardliner with influence" are pretty much synonymous in this case.

Except they aren't. Meredith in no sense runs the city as a classical tyrant until well into the game, nor does she come off as insane until after she gets the idol.

Unless this is going to be one of your 'X is EVIL' arguments again, on the grounds it is because its seems nasty enough to you as to make no difference. In which case, no counter argument is possible.



Edited. Also, have to retire for the night. Laters.

There are whispers already being voiced on Meredith in Act I with the Enemies Among Us Quest.  She was invovling templar recruits to be a part of a ritual that was not ok with chantry law.  I'm not talking the tranquility of mages but the templars themselves that you talk with at the gallows in Act I.   So Templars were already starting to see something wasn't right with Meredith in Act One.  Even the Templar she kicked out of the order that guy Samson and Thrask also knew she was off her rocker this is within the order itself and by Act II ordinary citizens are starting to be more vocal in regards to her actions and by Act 3 Meredith is fully insane.  She has the idol by the beginning of Act 3 or I assume that she does. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Very nice post Sister Helen, thank you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In regards to opposition to Meredith reaching a critical mass. well we know that nobles tried to do something on their own and failed. And Templar and mages tried to do something but the idiot Grace effed it up. But those are signs, I'd argue, that it is reaching critical mass or is capable of it.

But really, the Chantry does not need to have a critical mass to realize that this discontent is against their interests. Like Cullen said, a pillar of Templar success is popular support. Because people don't harbor mages and gladly help Templars find them (and really, part of a Templar's job is protecting mages from over-zealous people). But when you have common people willingly harboring mages and being uncooperative with Templars, in the middle of a large urban setting, then you already have a big problem (and true nouehg, it's only with extreme difficulty that Meredith crushed the mage underground, which might have only made it even more elusive and radical).

Meredith being completely oblivious to this, is a major reason why she needs to step down. And the Chantry not realizing this, and going as far as to seriously consider an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country which makes even Meredith look like a moderate, and I'd say the entire thing should be either thrown out or changed beyond recognition.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 02:30 .

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And... we're done.

Thanks for the reminder, kid.

Thanks for the reminder that Elthina didn't do her job as Grand Cleric, and failed to live up to her responsibilities? Because the situation is that Elthina didn't do anything, she expected the Maker to intervene, which goes against Chantry docturine.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[Wye]

I found it to be shocking, actually.

[Rifneno]

Sister Helen wrote...

I sometimes have difficulty with explaining my point, so please forgive the awkwardness of this post.  I'm trying to keep my vocabulary more secular than religious.  Sometimes the concepts don't translate well.

Elthina is a "blessed" or a "venerable," a person of principle, who leads by the example of how she lives her life and behaves towards others.  There is a tendency to think of these people as "saints," but many times these individuals are not religious. 

When these individuals are described, it is usually as "humble," "modest," "devoted," and often as having a "childlike innocence or joy." Some live as recluses, others are imprisoned or exiled; and still others are quietly disappeared by the governments with which they respectfully disagree.  It is rare that one of these folks rise to some level of political power, and when it happens (usually after years of imprisonment or exile and always in their middle- to old-age), they are known as peacemakers.  If I recited a few of the more famous examples, many readers over the age of 30 would recognize the names -

"Venerables" don't behave like most people, because, well, they're not like most people.  Very few are able to withdraw from a conflict or seek a peaceful resolution when tempers erupt and weapons are raised; it is our nature to fight back when struck, to take a stand, to say, "I am righteous, and my enemy is not." 

But venerables - by their nature - do not fight or encourage others to fight; they try to lead people to a peaceful solution or civil compromise.  They tend to submit peacefully to authority, even when they disagree with that authority's principles or behavior.  Venerables see the best in us, rather than the worst in us, and never lose faith in us, though we sorely test them.

Just as it makes no sense to get mad at the fabled scorpion who stings the turtle while crossing the river -- it is his nature  -- it makes no sense to get mad at Elthina for being a venerable -- it is her nature.

No one is disputing her principles. We're disputing her judgment and her ethics. She took a position in which she would have to make difficult choices about the lives and even deaths of others. If doing that job was against her principles, she had no right to take it. She was doing more harm than good. If she had violated her principles and had Meredith reigned in years earlier, things wouldn't have spiraled out of control. Is her personal integrity more important than the countless lives being lost because of it?

An analogy. Let's replace the positions of power shown here with examples in our own society. Say the US has a rogue general who, along with like-minded troops, are committing unspeakable crimes against some foreign population. The president refuses to have him court-martialed and subsequently we wind up with World War III. Because one man refused to rightly discipline someone under his command, valuing his own principles more than people's lives. How do you think he'll be remembered?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sister Helen wrote...
Elthina is a "blessed" or a "venerable," a person of principle, who leads by the example of how she lives her life and behaves towards others.  There is a tendency to think of these people as "saints," but many times these individuals are not religious. 

When the functionning of an institution that is responsable for many lives hinges on these "venerables" and their passivity by nature, then I'd rather go to the Qunari. At least they check and balance properly.

[Huntress]

Sister Helen wrote...

I sometimes have difficulty with explaining my point, so please forgive the awkwardness of this post.  I'm trying to keep my vocabulary more secular than religious.  Sometimes the concepts don't translate well.

Elthina is a "blessed" or a "venerable," a person of principle, who leads by the example of how she lives her life and behaves towards others.  There is a tendency to think of these people as "saints," but many times these individuals are not religious. 

When these individuals are described, it is usually as "humble," "modest," "devoted," and often as having a "childlike innocence or joy." Some live as recluses, others are imprisoned or exiled; and still others are quietly disappeared by the governments with which they respectfully disagree.  It is rare that one of these folks rise to some level of political power, and when it happens (usually after years of imprisonment or exile and always in their middle- to old-age), they are known as peacemakers.  If I recited a few of the more famous examples, many readers over the age of 30 would recognize the names -

"Venerables" don't behave like most people, because, well, they're not like most people.  Very few are able to withdraw from a conflict or seek a peaceful resolution when tempers erupt and weapons are raised; it is our nature to fight back when struck, to take a stand, to say, "I am righteous, and my enemy is not." 

But venerables - by their nature - do not fight or encourage others to fight; they try to lead people to a peaceful solution or civil compromise.  They tend to submit peacefully to authority, even when they disagree with that authority's principles or behavior.  Venerables see the best in us, rather than the worst in us, and never lose faith in us, though we sorely test them.

Just as it makes no sense to get mad at the fabled scorpion who stings the turtle while crossing the river -- it is his nature  -- it makes no sense to get mad at Elthina for being a venerable -- it is her nature.

I'll give one with less reading ( I hope)

The man is on the roof of the house, a boat aproach and the people urges him to get in,
he answer: the lord will save me, next hour an helicopter came close to the roof, grab the rope before the water reach the roof!
He answer: the lord will save me, one hour later a ship get close and everyone inside scream at him: GET the rope save yourself!
He answer: the lord will save me, the man dies and goes to heaven, he saw his lord and asked why did he fail to save him?
The Lord answer: who do you think sended, the boat, helicopter and a ship?

She has ears, yet she doesn't listen.
she has a head and yet she doesn't think
She has  power and yet she doesn't use it.
Did She deserve to die? no, but why anyone wants keep someone like that around? She isn't even that good looking!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Huntress wrote...
why anyone wants keep someone like that around? She isn't even that good looking!

Seriously.
At least Petrice is good looking.

Damn you Xilizhra for making me want a Petrice romance too much!

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Huntress wrote...
why anyone wants keep someone like that around? She isn't even that good looking!

Seriously.
At least Petrice is good looking.

Damn you Xilizhra for making me want a Petrice romance too much!

:sick:

Invoking the mental image of Elthina having sex should be outlawed by the Geneva Conventions.

Petrice probably took a vow of celibacy like Sebastian did. If nothing else, it explains what's wrong with her and Varnell.

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why would she have had to take sides?  Would it have been taking sides to require Meredith to abide by Chantry law?  Would putting a stop to the templar abuses have been taking sides?

Besides Elthina's personal stance, which is that clergy should be apolitical, Meredith is the de facto power in Kirkwall even in act 1.  She's the police force and after act 2, all of the civil government.  The only one with enough authority to remove Meredith is the Divine in Val Royeux, and Elthina is trying not to draw the Divine's gaze because the Divine is already looking into an Exalted March.  So Elthina sees the status quo as a necessary evil, given that all civil authority in Kirkwall has broken down and calling on the Divine would lead to occupation of the city and likely a lot of bloodshed.

....And if that's true, then it just makes Elthina all the more complicit and deserving of death.  The mages were being raped and tortured and made Tranquil for no reason, for mercy's sake.  It is NOT okay to defend those crimes as a necessary evil.

Deserving death, eh?  Afraid I don't subscribe to the notion.  There's no proof she even knew about abuses in the Gallows in any detail.  By status quo I mean Meredith being in charge of the city.  Someone's got to be, eh?  Or do you think she should play kingmaker and appoint a civil ruler, too?

Even so, Elthina could very easily have pointed out to the Divine that Meredith and her templars were the cause of the strife in Kirkwall, and explained that removing Meredith would likely make an Exalted March unnecessary.  So I don't buy it as an excuse anyway.

...because you're so certain that's true?  The Fereldan Circle had a blood mage revolt and it wasn't because of Meredith.  And you have an awful lot of faith in the Divine.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 mai 2011 - 02:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
Petrice probably took a vow of celibacy like Sebastian did. If nothing else, it explains what's wrong with her and Varnell.

But imagine all her passion and energy (and anger...hot) being kept within all these years being unleashed on you and being put to good use.

.....

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...

Actual power versus legal authority.  The Chantry is the legal authority over the templars.  If it's lost control of them in KIrkwall, then it's obligated to bring them back under the yoke.  Elthina DOES have authority over the templars and knight-commander of Kirkwall, whether or not she has the actual power to back it.  If she does not, then she has an obligation to appeal to the Divine for assistance.  And Elthina is NOT without her own power.  Her codex makes this very clear.  So your point is an argument for the Chantry coming down hard on the templars of Kirkwall, not a valid defense for their being allowed to run rampant.

So you actually want to see an Exalted March?  Considering that this would likely mean an annullment of the Circle?  If there is trouble in Kirkwall, the mages are going to be blamed, not the templars.

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

Deserving death, eh?  Afraid I don't subscribe to the notion.  There's no proof she even knew about abuses in the Gallows in any detail.  By status quo I mean Meredith being in charge of the city.  Someone's got to be, eh?  Or do you think she should play kingmaker and appoint a civil ruler, too?

Templars are no more supposed to hold political power than mages are. According to Cullen. As for her not knowing about the abuses, she doesn't refute Hawke's notion that they're being "brutally subjugated" and says that she doesn't approve of Meredith's methods.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Petrice probably took a vow of celibacy like Sebastian did. If nothing else, it explains what's wrong with her and Varnell.

But imagine all her passion and energy (and anger...hot) being kept within all these years being unleashed on you and being put to good use.

.....

... I gotta disagree with you there. I'm finding it hard to warm up to the idea of someone unleashing a bunch of pent-up anger on my sensitive parts.

Addai67 wrote...

So you actually want to see an Exalted March? Considering that this would likely mean an annullment of the Circle? If there is trouble in Kirkwall, the mages are going to be blamed, not the templars.

Apparently so. Which is why I'm hoping I get to see DA3 ending with my Hawke standing next to Anders on the smoldering rubble once called the Chantry of Val Royeaux.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Petrice probably took a vow of celibacy like Sebastian did. If nothing else, it explains what's wrong with her and Varnell.

But imagine all her passion and energy (and anger...hot) being kept within all these years being unleashed on you and being put to good use.

.....

 

I hate you right now KoP. 

The images...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh come on. I can't really recall other female in DA2 that I find attractive, other than Grace whom I despise.

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh come on. I can't really recall other female in DA2 that I find attractive, other than Grace whom I despise.

Bethany's great in that "girl next door" way.  Of course they had to make the only female companion that's sane Hawke's sister.  =/

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh come on. I can't really recall other female in DA2 that I find attractive, other than Grace whom I despise.

Bethany's great in that "girl next door" way.  Of course they had to make the only female companion that's sane Hawke's sister.  =/

She's a Hawke. Last thing I want is to have her sibling even remotely relatable to me.
Or have my genes be remotely mixed up with Hawke genes.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh come on. I can't really recall other female in DA2 that I find attractive, other than Grace whom I despise.

 

Just....no. 

Bethany is attractive, Lady Elegant is attractive, Atherial is attractive, the elf girl you save from Kelper? is attractive. There are more that I forgot. 

Peatrice is so not attractive. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh come on. I can't really recall other female in DA2 that I find attractive, other than Grace whom I despise.

Bethany's great in that "girl next door" way.  Of course they had to make the only female companion that's sane Hawke's sister.  =/

She's a Hawke. Last thing I want is to have her sibling even remotely relatable to me.
Or have my genes be remotely mixed up with Hawke genes.

By that logic, everyone in DA2 is going to be out.  Because everyone in DA2 is awful at everything.

[MoMan313]

NEVER. I was NEVER happy with it! I liked elthina! I understood the need to not upset the balance!
WAS.SO.EFING.PSST. That Anders took advantage of my never-abandon-your-friends attitude!

They're are other ways of helping the mages' cause without killing someone!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
 Bethany is attractive, Lady Elegant is attractive, Atherial is attractive, the elf girl you save from Kelper? is attractive. There are more that I forgot.

Bethany's a Hawke. Elegant looks weird to me and kind of dumb. I don't even recall Atherial. Elves look like nav'i and the only one I can tolerate is the servant calling me master ().

Peatrice is so not attractive. 

Oh shush



It's like she can devour with her glare