38 réponses à ce sujet

[UBERxL33Tx]

Is it revealed that he is undoubtedly true?

[HanErlik]

Sacred ashes can be considered as a proof.

[rayvioletta]

HanErlik wrote...

Sacred ashes can be considered as a proof.

no they can't. even if you dismiss Oghren's more scientific theory (I know, science from Oghren?) you still have to take into account that just because the ashes can heal doesn't prove the Maker. firstly there's no proof they're even Andraste's ashes, or that Andraste wasn't just some powerful mage imbued with amazing healing power and delusions, or that the ashes weren't enchanted after her death or any number of possibilities

the game is deliberately open about it, so you can make your own opinion on whether or not to believe just like you can in real life. there is no right or wrong, only opinion

[Caralampio]

Yes, you can be a Thedan agnostic, and find a maker-less explanation for everything that points towards there being a Maker in the game. Just as in real life!

[Arthur Cousland]

I am the Maker! How dare you doubt my existence! To Hades with you!

[GSSAGE7]

Caralampio wrote...

Yes, you can be a Thedan agnostic, and find a maker-less explanation for everything that points towards there being a Maker in the game. Just as in real life!

It's rather difficult to be an agnostic in a world with magic, just by definition.

[Zaxares]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Caralampio wrote...

Yes, you can be a Thedan agnostic, and find a maker-less explanation for everything that points towards there being a Maker in the game. Just as in real life!

It's rather difficult to be an agnostic in a world with magic, just by definition.

Except that the elves and the Tevinter Imperium were also using magic hundreds of years prior to the founding of the Chantry, and there's no evidence to state that the elves believed magic to be anything but a natural force of the world and not some gift from their gods. That suggests that magic is a force entirely unrelated to the presence of deities. (Indeed, there's ample evidence in the game that suggests magic has a close connection with lyrium.)

[GSSAGE7]

Zaxares wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Caralampio wrote...

Yes, you can be a Thedan agnostic, and find a maker-less explanation for everything that points towards there being a Maker in the game. Just as in real life!

It's rather difficult to be an agnostic in a world with magic, just by definition.

Except that the elves and the Tevinter Imperium were also using magic hundreds of years prior to the founding of the Chantry, and there's no evidence to state that the elves believed magic to be anything but a natural force of the world and not some gift from their gods. That suggests that magic is a force entirely unrelated to the presence of deities. (Indeed, there's ample evidence in the game that suggests magic has a close connection with lyrium.)

I have to disagree on that part about elves not believing magic is a gift from their gods. Merrill, a Dalish Elf, says that almost word for word in a party banter with Bethany.

[HanErlik]

rayvioletta wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

Sacred ashes can be considered as a proof.

no they can't. even if you dismiss Oghren's more scientific theory (I know, science from Oghren?) you still have to take into account that just because the ashes can heal doesn't prove the Maker. firstly there's no proof they're even Andraste's ashes, or that Andraste wasn't just some powerful mage imbued with amazing healing power and delusions, or that the ashes weren't enchanted after her death or any number of possibilities

the game is deliberately open about it, so you can make your own opinion on whether or not to believe just like you can in real life. there is no right or wrong, only opinion

But I think the strongest possibility is that Andastre was the prophetess. Other options seem like conpiracy theories.

Modifié par HanErlik, 29 mai 2011 - 03:12 .

[XGrlGamerX]

We're all such nerds I love it! lol

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

I doubt that this ancient debate will be resolved on a video game forum.  LOL

BTW, has anyone ever checked out Victor Zammit's site?  He outlines what he considers proof of the afterlife (not God though).  IMO, there is indirect proof of God, but I doubt that a big hand will ever appear in the sky and wave at us.

[Zaxares]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Zaxares wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Caralampio wrote...

Yes, you can be a Thedan agnostic, and find a maker-less explanation for everything that points towards there being a Maker in the game. Just as in real life!

It's rather difficult to be an agnostic in a world with magic, just by definition.

Except that the elves and the Tevinter Imperium were also using magic hundreds of years prior to the founding of the Chantry, and there's no evidence to state that the elves believed magic to be anything but a natural force of the world and not some gift from their gods. That suggests that magic is a force entirely unrelated to the presence of deities. (Indeed, there's ample evidence in the game that suggests magic has a close connection with lyrium.)

I have to disagree on that part about elves not believing magic is a gift from their gods. Merrill, a Dalish Elf, says that almost word for word in a party banter with Bethany.

Ah, really? I haven't really started DA2 in earnest yet, so I've yet to come across that conversation. Even if that were so, however, that would still mean that magic pre-dated the birth of the Chantry and the belief in the Maker. If the Maker truly existed since the beginning of time, then why did the elves develop a polytheistic religion, and not a monotheistic one?

Another thing I'm also curious about is whether the Chantry has any official stance on how the other sentient races like the elves, dwarves and qunari came to be, since their creation myth seems to only specify 'man'.

[TBastian]

The Maker undoubtedly exists. The real question is, what is he/her/it/whatever?

For all we know the Maker was just an extremely powerful, benevolent spirit who took a liking to Andraste, kind of like what happened to Wynne.

[Arthur Cousland]

Unless the Maker decides to greet the citizens of Theadas personally, no one can be completely sure. Either you believe or you don't. It's not like pictures were taken, and he only spoke to Andraste (supposedly).

[maxernst]

TBastian wrote...

The Maker undoubtedly exists. The real question is, what is he/her/it/whatever?

For all we know the Maker was just an extremely powerful, benevolent spirit who took a liking to Andraste, kind of like what happened to Wynne.

If that's all he is, he isn't the Maker, the creator of Thedas.  No, Bioware has left the question deliberately open-ended.  The most impressive evidence for him is Andraste's Ashes (and I would include within that line of evidence the coincidence that their discovery comes at a time when Ferelden's in such dire need), but as noted above, other explanations are possible.  In a world of magic, how do you recognize a miracle?  Besides, if you follow Hume's argument, there can be no proof of a Maker.

[Arthur Cousland]

If Andraste's Ashes turn out to be self-replinishing, then that might show that supernatural forces are in play. It would be interesting to see what would become of the temple and the ashes once people start making pilgrimages and everyone in Theadas wants a pinch of the ashes.

[Huntress]

Only one person heard the maker and that was Andraste a human but a chasind? remember at the time of Andraste chasin people were seen as barbarians.. rofl. You get codex in Lothering.
Any way I do believe that the elves god's are more real than the humans god. For one is flemeth she is someone the elves sees as a god and even named her/treat her as one.

If she is a god/dragon or an very powerful and inmortal mage we don't know but, she have been alive for many many centuries, and no, Morrigan doesn't know much about Flemeth pass, she is what? 25 years old in origens when you meet Morrigan?

[Arthur Cousland]

Flemeth was once a regular human mage, who became possessed after summoning a demon, which made her into the abomination that she has become. She's no god. She is able to become a dragon because she's a shapeshifter mage, like Morrigan. Too bad Morrigan doesn't get that form.

[Zaxares]

However, Morrigan's conversations, especially in Witch Hunt, and coupled with what Fenris says if he meets Flemeth in DA2, seem to suggest that Flemeth is not an abomination. It may be that the story of Flemeth, Osen and Connor may be yet another myth, a story concocted by Flemeth to make people underestimate what she truly is.

[Get Magna Carter]

If the maker doesn't exist, then who has been making flowers bloom for Leliana?

[Arthur Cousland]

Perhaps Flemeth will play a bigger role in DA3 or get her own dlc so we can get to know more about her.

Flemeth would have quite a story to tell, but so far Bioware hasn't done too much with her.

[Jessihatt]

I think the Gauntlet is proof enough? The Guardian itself is an all knowing spirit who believes in Andraste and The Maker.
And then there are demons and the fade.
Maybe The Maker is The Dread Wolf, who tricked the other elven gods (the Old Gods)?

[HanErlik]

Leliana believes in him. I think it is enough for believing

[Arthur Cousland]

"I believe that she believes in her vision."

[TBastian]

Andraste was the one who initially made contact with the being known as the Maker. Whether he/she/it is actually the creator of Thedas as the Chantry says or not is irrelevant. If there's one thing everyone agrees on, it's that the Chantry is as much a masterpiece of wisdom as lies and half-truths. The mere existence of The Guardian implies that supernatural forces were at work behind Andraste's rise. She could not have been working alone.

As for the idea of an omnipotent god-figure watching over the people of Ferelden, that is indeed open to debate.