38 réponses à ce sujet

[Haradmir]

The Guardian still isn't proof of the Maker. He could just have been a particularly powerful benevolent spirit who was inspired by Andraste and her vision, and who was more "in touch" with the higher order of the supernatural and so happened to construe what he sensed as being some part of or relating to the Maker.

[gandanlin]

Faith in "the existence of something or other" is something that by definition does not require proof. Or to say it another way, if one has proof of "the existence of something or other," then there is no need for faith.

So to answer the question, no, there is no proof of the Maker. Not in the sense of a verifiable DNA sample, at any rate.

But there is faith, at least for some.

[TBastian]

The Guardian still isn't proof of the Maker. He could just have been a particularly powerful benevolent spirit who was inspired by Andraste and her vision, and who was more "in touch" with the higher order of the supernatural and so happened to construe what he sensed as being some part of or relating to the Maker.

Same message as my post. There is good proof that the Maker exists although whether this being actually is who the Chantry says he is, is open to debate. Whoever this being was he/she/it was Andraste's close confidant. It is also possible that the Maker is simply the amalgamation of all the people important to Andraste.
The Guardian was once a disciple of Andraste. The fact that he has remained alive all these centuries is proof of supernatural power. The fact that he can see into the life and history of everyone he meets demonstrates that he is much, much more than mere spirit. Despite the fact that you can't kill entire armies with it (not directly, anyway) this remains to be the strongest ability shown so far in the entire game.

The Chant came after Andraste, so she wasn't exactly in a position to clarify, correct or be horrified of her "extended" biography. The fact that the Chantry decided to attack the Elves on the second Exalted March is proof that they wouldn't have cared much about Andraste's opinions anyway.

Modifié par TBastian, 24 juin 2011 - 05:11 .

[BlueMagitek]

Maybe.

It could be that he was just an absurdly powerful Pride Demon (what is more prideful than claiming to be the creator of all things?) while Andraste was a mage. Having magic be so feared would be an excellent ploy to keep out other Fade spirits who could mettle with his plans. Or he could be one of the few benevolent spirits.

Heck, if mages weren't so hated, Wynne could be seen as someone favored by the Maker as well; despite being dead, she's sustained by a spirit and isn't like every other abomination we've come across. She hasn't had a change in personality (that we know of) and is still alive and kicking, last I knew.

I think it really just comes down to whether you believe that The Maker would take an active role in his creation after he's finished creating it. And understand why he hates the Dwarves. D=

[gandanlin]

I would only add that there is a difference between "signs" and "proof."

Proof is incontrovertible.

Signs lead one to believe, but can be explained in other ways.

[Get Magna Carter]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

If the maker doesn't exist, then who has been making flowers bloom for Leliana?

While nobody else seems to have tried answering my question, I have come up with a theory..

Enchantment!

[Ambervikings92]

well as an atheist normally i just in and would say no.... but.... they live in a world of magic, so i'd say its most likely true

[Rvlion]

Fun to watch that many people tend to mix a game god and a real life god.
While I don't believe in the existence of a real life god (if other wish to believe be my guest), I do wonder if in the current setting of this game the Maker has existed.
I do not speak of this whole story about the Maker talking to Andraste or coming to Leliana in a vision, which is the same as the real life god supposedly gave us the 10 commandments which is also only hearsay. For all we know (no insult intended for the religious among us) it was just some guy starving from hunger, ate a wrong mushroom, went tripping and while high he made up some lines.
There is however still is a matter of the Darkspawn origins, which supposedly started as being Trevinter Bloodmages entering the Golden City afterwhich they and their gods were punished. By placing in exile their Draconic Gods as well as casting a curse on the Trevinter mages to forever seek out and serve their old gods.
While I have not completely read the whole page "Darkspawn: a Tevinter Experiment gone wrong?" it does seem strange that a failed (blood?)magic experiment would banish multiple dragons below the surface as well as create a parasitical being alive only to search and release the old dragons. It does have the whole divine wrath thing covered. And be honest we cannot explain were the Archdemons are coming from only that they are supposedly Dragon Gods

Modifié par Rvlion, 27 juin 2011 - 09:22 .

[mosesofwar]

Dwarves cannot go in to the fade, nor can they use magic. So if there is a maker, then he probably didn't make dwarves. Plus is the Cult of Andraste limited to Thedas? It came about at thefall of Tevinter, but humans came from outside of Thedas according to the elves (from Par Vollen, in almost a similar way the Quanri are invading in on Human civilzation). Questions oh questions.

[Dreadhound666]

I think that the maker does exist. for the sheer fact that all the beings of the fade seem to acknowledge the maker, and Justice in awakenings even mentions, i believe, that the maker is gone from the land. For a spirit of justice to acknowledge the maker in such a way, says that it exists. what the maker is, I have yet to know. The elven gods, I believe, are possibly a recounting of how the maker came to power in the first place, with the gods being split into two groups and separated, its sounds much like the veil, which usually stops demons getting through. So, like someone up there said, There is a chance that the maker is the humans version of Fen'Harel, the Dread wolf. After all, the darkspawn have a connection to the fade, which means that they cannot be unnatural. It is clear that the darkspawn are not abominations, yet they are able to change the existing species into broodmothers. There are dark forces at work there, but not standard magic. The tevinter magistrate were very possibly punished for their belief in the dragons, by this maker. It is probably only an answer we would get from Biowares holy bible of Lore.

[mosesofwar]

Dreadhound666 wrote...

I think that the maker does exist. for the sheer fact that all the beings of the fade seem to acknowledge the maker, and Justice in awakenings even mentions, i believe, that the maker is gone from the land. For a spirit of justice to acknowledge the maker in such a way, says that it exists. what the maker is, I have yet to know. The elven gods, I believe, are possibly a recounting of how the maker came to power in the first place, with the gods being split into two groups and separated, its sounds much like the veil, which usually stops demons getting through. So, like someone up there said, There is a chance that the maker is the humans version of Fen'Harel, the Dread wolf. After all, the darkspawn have a connection to the fade, which means that they cannot be unnatural. It is clear that the darkspawn are not abominations, yet they are able to change the existing species into broodmothers. There are dark forces at work there, but not standard magic. The tevinter magistrate were very possibly punished for their belief in the dragons, by this maker. It is probably only an answer we would get from Biowares holy bible of Lore.

This doesn't explainthe Dwarves however... for all the "proofs", there is a living example of how there is no maker. Dwarves can't go in to the fade, nor can they dream, nor  do they have gods. Dwarves were around just as long as the Elves, perhaps longer. We do not know. Belief in the maker has only been around post-Tevinter and while the Elven story could coincide with the beginning of the maker, I like the idea that the Dread Wolf is actually Flemeth (there's a thread somewhere around here about that). No one has ever actually been to the Black City; there is no tangible proof. Only Chantry lore makes that claim to explain the darkspawn. Grey Wardens seem not to truely believe that theory. All in all for every "proof" (as there is no direct proof that there is a Maker), there is "proof" that this maker doesn't exist.

Personally, I can't seem to find a reason why the maker's existence until a couple things are explained: The first is Dwarves. Did the maker "make" everything, then Dwarves just popped up out of no where? Why did the maker let Elves and Quanari go unpunished for worshipping "false" gods. Did Andraste believe in this Maker? We don't know if she actually believed in the Maker as the Chantry was formed years after her death, a.k.a., it is a cult, using her actions to bring down the Tevinter Imperium as it's base. How much of Andraste's Exalted March is truth and how much has been skewed by fiction is unknown.

the sole "proof" of the maker and of Andraste's Divinity is the Gauntlet and the Urn of Sacred Ashses; but the "architect" of the Gauntlet could easily have enchanted the place as Brother Genevinti explains the traps in Lehmen's terms (but how does the guardian known the histories of the party?).

I guess all this post shows is that I need an intervention for my addication to Dragon Age.

[gandanlin]

Certainly more questions than answers.

Makes it interesting.

[LobselVith8]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Caralampio wrote...

Yes, you can be a Thedan agnostic, and find a maker-less explanation for everything that points towards there being a Maker in the game. Just as in real life!

It's rather difficult to be an agnostic in a world with magic, just by definition.

Why? The Cousland Warden can openly address that he's an atheist. Aveline is either an atheist or an agnostic, given what she says about Wesley and the Maker. Hawke can question whether the Maker ever existed or not when he is speaking to Grand Cleric Elthina for Anders' Act III quest, Justice. Morrigan can address that she doesn't believe in the Maker:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker? Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic

[gandanlin]

And yet part of the reason Morrigan goes with the Wardens is because of her wish to conceive a child with the soul of an Old God.

If nothing else, it suggests she has some sort of belief system that includes figures of the divine.