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[Rockpopple]

Ringo12 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

You know what else sold remarkably well? Dragon Age II. I have yet to see the PC numbers of TW2 compared to Dragon Age II, and I'd be curious to see how much better they're doing and will do in the weeks to come.

There's nothing wrong with "fancy TV ads". Jesus Christ how far up your own sense of old-fashioned pride are you?

If BioWare could use their marketing tactic of bashing their competition (instead of their past games) while getting some of their more feeble-minded fans to spread the love on their competition's boards, hey, I'm all for it. 

Witcher 1 sold 1.7 million. Sometimes success doesn't have to 7 million like Mass Effect. But so far it's been selling well I have read and only physical copies have been counted.

If you can't stand Witcher 2 being brought up maybe you should go to a different forum or deal with it.

If I can't stand the Witcher 2 being brought up on a Dragon Age forum, then I should go to a different forum? What forum would you suggest? CDPR's forums? I'm guessing they must be dreadfully empty these days, with all their morons over here.

On your bike.

[Marionetten]

Rockpopple wrote...

Oh I'm pretty sure I'd get at least a warning from a moderator first if I was going anywhere in ban-territory. Besides, I wasn't insulting anyone specifically. It would be like if I claimed people who thought the earth were flat were a bunch of ignorant rubes. Yeah, it's a mean thing to say, but it's not necessarily untrue.

Just as claiming that feeble-minded pimple-heads who flood the competition of their beloved game's boards with off-topic bullcrap are as such, it's a mean thing to call them... but apt. Quite apt.

Why? Who am I talking about here, specifically?

The moderators here aren't exactly known for banning or warning those who defend them regardless of how condescending, obnoxious or insulting they are. So, I'm sure you'll be perfectly fine. Keep on trucking because I for one would miss your antics something fierce.

And I think the thread would have been locked by now had they considered it that grossly off topic. That said, I'd actually be for locking it as the discussion can't seem to remain productive for more than two minutes.

Modifié par Marionetten, 26 mai 2011 - 07:05 .

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...

I think there's a point where it starts to become obvious that people will like a game because they want to like it and hate a game because they want to hate it and that any stated reasons are peripheral, ultimately inconsequential justifications to an underlying sentiment that is utterly unmovable by rational argument or debate.

I really wanted to like TW2. 

But, I accept that it's just not my game, and it's my fault for not researching the gameplay more carefully before buying it.  Expensive lesson learned.  Sadly, since it appears that's the sort of gameplay CDPR wants, I'll likely not be buying any more Witcher titles.

[Merced652]

Rockpopple wrote...

Oh I'm pretty sure I'd get at least a warning from a moderator first if I was going anywhere in ban-territory. Besides, I wasn't insulting anyone specifically. It would be like if I claimed people who thought the earth were flat were a bunch of ignorant rubes. Yeah, it's a mean thing to say, but it's not necessarily untrue.

Just as claiming that feeble-minded pimple-heads who flood the competition of their beloved game's boards with off-topic bullcrap are as such, it's a mean thing to call them... but apt. Quite apt.

Why? Who am I talking about here, specifically?

You seem to be under the very misguided impression that only insulting individuals in a punishable offense. Your liberal use of overarching insults is at the very least trolling and inflamatory. Which, are both actionable. But by all means; keep thinking yourself the more intelligent one while staying on your present course. 

[Rockpopple]

Marionetten wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Oh I'm pretty sure I'd get at least a warning from a moderator first if I was going anywhere in ban-territory. Besides, I wasn't insulting anyone specifically. It would be like if I claimed people who thought the earth were flat were a bunch of ignorant rubes. Yeah, it's a mean thing to say, but it's not necessarily untrue.

Just as claiming that feeble-minded pimple-heads who flood the competition of their beloved game's boards with off-topic bullcrap are as such, it's a mean thing to call them... but apt. Quite apt.

Why? Who am I talking about here, specifically?

The moderators here aren't exactly known for banning or warning those who defend them regardless of how condescending, obnoxious or insulting they are. So, I'm sure you'll be perfectly fine. Keep on trucking because I for one would miss your antics something fierce.

I'm defending developers now? Please. If I'm defending any developer I'm defending CDPR's developers. Maybe one of them will ride in to the rescue? Maybe one of them is already here. 

@ Merced - sounds like you're speaking from experience. I guess you would know.

I'm not trolling or anything. I'm simply flummoxed at how this is a non-off-topic, specifically Dragon Age 2 forum, and how this topic has long since degnerated into a "let's talk about how great TW2 is.".

I have nothing against The Witcher 2. I do think forum rules should be obeyed. This topic is off-topic, and should either be forced back on-topic, or closed. It's pretty simple.

There are only 1 billion places to talk about TW2. A Dragon Age 2 topic only forum isn't one of those places. Deal with it.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 26 mai 2011 - 07:07 .

[tmp7704]

Rockpopple wrote...

I'm not trolling or anything. I'm simply flummoxed at how this is a non-off-topic, specifically Dragon Age 2 forum, and how this topic has long since degnerated into a "let's talk about how great TW2 is.".

Since the topic is actually "what elements should bioware take from TW2" discussing the strong points of TW2 (and what specifically makes them strong points) seems to be justified -- how else is one supposed to express which elements of TW2 they'd like to see in future BioWare titles (preferably DA3)?

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 mai 2011 - 07:16 .

[Marionetten]

Rockpopple wrote...

There are only 1 billion places to talk about TW2. A Dragon Age 2 topic only forum isn't one of those places. Deal with it.

I didn't realize that you were responsible for the moderation now too. Man, you're certainly going up in the world. Maybe you should take a moment and realize that this thread is still open as it discusses what BioWare could take from The Witcher 2 in order to make their games better. Believe it or not, but developers often do learn from rival productions in creative industries.

Or, by all means, continue trying to get it locked. That strategy has after all worked for you in the past.

Modifié par Marionetten, 26 mai 2011 - 07:12 .

[Merced652]

Rockpopple drooled...

@ Merced - sounds like you're speaking from experience. I guess you would know.

I'm not trolling or anything. I'm simply flummoxed at how this is a non-off-topic, specifically Dragon Age 2 forum, and how this topic has long since degnerated into a "let's talk about how great TW2 is.".

I have nothing against The Witcher 2. I do think forum rules should be obeyed. This topic is off-topic, and should either be forced back on-topic, or closed. It's pretty simple.

There are only 1 billion places to talk about TW2. A Dragon Age 2 topic only forum isn't one of those places. Deal with it.

So let me get this straight, just to cement any hypocrisy you might have going on.

You're angered that the topic has strayed as its a violation of the rules. Then, you proceed to hurl multiple insults at groups of people as a result.

Well, maybe i was too hasty in calling it hypocrisy. Retarded, ignorant, and laughable are probably more apt. Quite actually.

Modifié par Merced652, 26 mai 2011 - 07:12 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hypothesis. Maybe there are reasons to like or dislike a game instead of waking up and deciding to dislike a game just because.

I don't know. Sounds more plausible to me.

Perhaps, but it rarely begets this level of vicious negativity and hive-mind behavior. There are legitimate complaints about DA2 and legitimate detractors, and then there are people who decided they were going to hate the game long before it was even released, who use those complaints as a dressing to justify and confirm a negative stance that would exist regardless of that, and who repeat everything they hear and profess whatever views they think they need to profess because they are uncomfortable with holding opinions that they feel are not confirmed by their peers at large (and this isn't exclusive to DA2 ******, by any means). I can tell you who the loudest group is.

It doesn't matter that TW2 shares elements with DA2 that are commonly cited as detractions, because those reasons are often only ammunition for the negativity, and not the source of the negativity itself.

[John Epler]

Well, I just got back from lunch.

Going back through and handing out bans and warnings as appropriate. Some of you (on both sides of the fence) need to learn to deal with each other like adults and cut out the hostile rhetoric and pointless insults.

Bring it back on-topic now, or it's getting locked.

[Rockpopple]

Well John posted before I pressed Finished so. Bleh.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 26 mai 2011 - 07:16 .

[Dreadstruck]

Well, perhaps the enviroments, the attention to details(after intoxicating yourself with the potions you even get to see the typical drug-addict stuff like giant chickens, lol), combat moves that don't look like they are coming straight from some anime, better animations,...

Blah, pretty much everything. Just not the fixed protagonist, that's not the Bioware I know.
And the need to "cater to everyone, draw the (short-spam) attention of the FPS crowd.

I mean seriuously Laidlaw? Or Silverman, or who the hell came up with this idiot's idea. >_>

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 26 mai 2011 - 07:22 .

[DA2 is Awsum]

Marionetten wrote...

The moderators here aren't exactly known for banning or warning those who defend them regardless of how condescending, obnoxious or insulting they are. 

Hmmmmmmmm

[Marionetten]

ipgd wrote...

Perhaps, but it rarely begets this level of vicious negativity and hive-mind behavior. There are legitimate complaints about DA2 and legitimate detractors, and then there are people who decided they were going to hate the game long before it was even released, who use those complaints as a dressing to justify and confirm a negative stance that would exist regardless of that, and who repeat everything they hear and profess whatever views they think they need to profess because they are uncomfortable with holding opinions that they feel are not confirmed by their peers at large (and this isn't exclusive to DA2 ******, by any means). I can tell you who the loudest group is.

It doesn't matter that TW2 shares elements with DA2 that are commonly cited as detractions, because those reasons are often only ammunition for the negativity, and not the source of the negativity itself.

Just like how a lot of people were determined to love it before it even launched. Yes, that thing goes both ways and it usually ends up balancing itself out which is why I don't really worry about it as long as it doesn't infect the game design itself.

But I really don't think we can blame Dragon Age II's overly negative reception on a few vocal haters or the 4chan hivemind anymore. The same goes for The Witcher 2's success. All in all, I find these bogeymen explanations to be highly unproductive. There are haters just like there are fanboys. But I'd like to think that most people just want to play good games and in that area there is always room for improvement.

Modifié par Marionetten, 26 mai 2011 - 07:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
I can tell you who the loudest group is.

And thus, they are the easiet to spot and ignore. So specifying would be more accurate than "people", because that implies everyone or most of them. It's belittling what many have to say to just "well you don't want to like the game".

Anyways, what I think DA should take from TW2:
- graphics
- environment being alive and not lifeless.
- attention to detail and actual effort.
- More importantly, choices actually mattering and altering the game quite a bit

What it should keep:
- party based system and the combat system in general (with a few tweaks)
- high quality VA
- facial expressions

What it should throw away:
- waves
- Passive protagonist
- plot structures that they can't do properly and / or put more effort into it.
- the art direction needs work. It's trying to be styllish, but it's not doing it for me.
- the entire marketing team.

I personally want DA to remain DA (and more importantly, with quality) and don't want a The Witcher clone, because I'd rather just play The Witcher.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 07:29 .

[_Aine_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I can tell you who the loudest group is.

And thus, they are the easiet to spot and ignore. So specifying would be more accurate than "people", because that implies everyone or most of them. It's belittling what many have to say to just "well you don't want to like the game".

Anyways, what I think DA should take from TW2:
- graphics
- environment being alive and not lifeless.
- More importantly, choices actually mattering and altering the game quite a bit

What it should keep:
- party based system and the combat system in general
- high quality VA
- facial expressions

What it should throw away:
- waves
- Passive protagonist
- plot structures that they can't do properly and / or put more effort into it.
- the entire marketing team.

I personally want DA to remain DA (and more importantly, with quality) and don't want a The Witcher clone, because I'd rather just play The Witcher.

I like your list here, Knight.  Agreed.   

[John Epler]

Marionetten wrote...

The moderators here aren't exactly known for banning or warning those who defend them regardless of how condescending, obnoxious or insulting they are. So, I'm sure you'll be perfectly fine. Keep on trucking because I for one would miss your antics something fierce.

Given that you have exactly zero insight into who gets warned and banned, as we try to keep it between the person receiving disciplinary action and the person handing out the action, I'd say you're looking for a bias that doesn't exist. I ban people who need a time out because they can't remain civil, or who have violated the ToS time and time again.

And since I'm not omniscient (nor is this my job - it's a volunteer function I perform on top of my other duties), I rely mostly on users PM'ing me to deal with concerns as they arise. If I don't hear about it, I can't deal with it. And given that I received exactly zero PMs about this particular thread, well, it's no surprise that it went on as long as it did in the fashion that it did. But by all means, imagine it's because we consciously refuse to discipline people who are pro DA2. I'm certain there are a few folks who would vociferously disagree with you.

[erynnar]

Addai67 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I think there's a point where it starts to become obvious that people will like a game because they want to like it and hate a game because they want to hate it and that any stated reasons are peripheral, ultimately inconsequential justifications to an underlying sentiment that is utterly unmovable by rational argument or debate.

I really wanted to like TW2. 

But, I accept that it's just not my game, and it's my fault for not researching the gameplay more carefully before buying it.  Expensive lesson learned.  Sadly, since it appears that's the sort of gameplay CDPR wants, I'll likely not be buying any more Witcher titles.

Aw, *HUGS*! I'm sorry Addai! And you can't return it or sell it?

[EugeneBi]

Do not borrow anything ever. That's what kills DA2 - it tries to take elements that worked well in ME2 and fails because the game is too eclectic. Just create a consistent game where all elements work in unison.

[erynnar]

JohnEpler wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

The moderators here aren't exactly known for banning or warning those who defend them regardless of how condescending, obnoxious or insulting they are. So, I'm sure you'll be perfectly fine. Keep on trucking because I for one would miss your antics something fierce.

Given that you have exactly zero insight into who gets warned and banned, as we try to keep it between the person receiving disciplinary action and the person handing out the action, I'd say you're looking for a bias that doesn't exist. I ban people who need a time out because they can't remain civil, or who have violated the ToS time and time again.

And since I'm not omniscient (nor is this my job - it's a volunteer function I perform on top of my other duties), I rely mostly on users PM'ing me to deal with concerns as they arise. If I don't hear about it, I can't deal with it. And given that I received exactly zero PMs about this particular thread, well, it's no surprise that it went on as long as it did in the fashion that it did. But by all means, imagine it's because we consciously refuse to discipline people who are pro DA2. I'm certain there are a few folks who would vociferously disagree with you.

Wait, what? But I thought you were a god! Dammit John! Now I have to see you as a regulare human being who likes Hockey? Well, there went my day!

[erynnar]

EugeneBi wrote...

Do not borrow anything ever. That's what kills DA2 - it tries to take elements that worked well in ME2 and fails because the game is too eclectic. Just create a consistent game where all elements work in unison.

Very good point. No borrowing from ME, borrow from DAO.

[Dragoonlordz]

I have to admit they do seem to ban or more accuratley suspend only when do something wrong. I have only been suspended once on here and even I knew that would happen due to knowingly making a spam thread. If they take anything from Witcher 2 ~ I hope it would be level design, immersion from the point of how to handle NPC's (reacting to your character's presence and actions, the weather and day / night cycle plus more) and what TW2 calls the 'living world' mechanic. Also the choices affecting story with cumulative affect. Which Bioware (imho) have strayed from in a big way. Combat mechanics too that don't involve waves and worlds that are believable. I would like them to learn also from Skyrim, the actions in game and cities where the econemy would be affected by an attack or destruction as well as over surplus of selling something, details like that.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 26 mai 2011 - 07:38 .

[Marionetten]

JohnEpler wrote...

Given that you have exactly zero insight into who gets warned and banned, as we try to keep it between the person receiving disciplinary action and the person handing out the action, I'd say you're looking for a bias that doesn't exist. I ban people who need a time out because they can't remain civil, or who have violated the ToS time and time again.

And since I'm not omniscient (nor is this my job - it's a volunteer function I perform on top of my other duties), I rely mostly on users PM'ing me to deal with concerns as they arise. If I don't hear about it, I can't deal with it. And given that I received exactly zero PMs about this particular thread, well, it's no surprise that it went on as long as it did in the fashion that it did. But by all means, imagine it's because we consciously refuse to discipline people who are pro DA2. I'm certain there are a few folks who would vociferously disagree with you.

Are you trying to tell me that some of the most ardent defenders here weren't more deserving of a ban than say v_ware? I've definitely seen a lot of selective moderation and if I were a betting man I'd place good money on Mercer getting the banhammar and Rock slipping away with a warning despite both of them essentially saying the same thing.

I realize that you have limits as a moderator but the trolling does go both ways and I've seen a lot of productive discussions be shut down by the same people time and time again followed by a lock. I think the key problem here is how easily one person can troll a thread into oblivion and subsequently get it shut down. Now that probably is what irks me the most. You basically end up giving the troll exactly what he wants instead of just purging him from existence.

But I digress, it's true that I do not have perfect insight and I'm only commenting from the lowly perspective of yet another BSN peasant. If I'm totally mistaken then feel free to ignore the critique. I trust that you guys are as keen as everyone else to get this forum back on track. Unfortunately, that is going to require drastic measures.

Modifié par Marionetten, 26 mai 2011 - 07:42 .