673 réponses à ce sujet

[Droma]

that's simply not true. go to the docks, some will aknowladge isabella, in high town their is a chantry member walking around and talking with the guards and stuff about donations. the guards will also notice aveline and talk to her and so on. or even better, go to the hanging man, there are a lot of conversations between npcs there. it isn't much yes, but it's in no way less then ostagar or denerim.

Modifié par Droma, 29 mai 2011 - 05:46 .

[Hel]

Few comments here and there don't make for a living world. I had forgotten about the Hanged Man, but other than that area there's little life to be found in Kirkwall or its surrounding areas. Sure, the NPC's have their banter when you pass them, but they're pretty much static characters if you take away that banter.

Visit the viscount's keep during year one, then again after the first skip in time and again at the conclusion. It's the same for ten years in a row, nothing changes. You still have those same nobles standing there for whatever reason. The only thing that changed is that the city guard had to make room for the templars. The same applies to those sisters in the chantry, the poor folk in Dark Town, Low Town, High Town or elsewhere. Even the Dalish just sit where they landed with their caravels.

Don't get me wrong, I like DAII, but to say that it has life (a living world) is something I simply cannot agree with. The atmosphere that some places in Origins had (Ostagar and Lothering) aren't matched anywhere in DAII, in my opinion.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 29 mai 2011 - 06:03 .

[Elhanan]

Helekanalaith wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I see your opinion, and raise you KOTOR, HotU, And DAO.

The first two had day-night cycles, sure. But none of them had extensive (or believeable?) living worlds, especially not DAO were everything remained the same every time you revisited areas.

You should have passed instead of raised. 

Good thing the outcome ain't based on your opinions, as I was immersed into KOTOR worlds completely. And I seem to recall having to wait for nightfall to have The Joining in DAO, as well as flirting with Leliana under the stars at camp. Or did you require the authentic travel needs to go to Denerim for supplies at night, only to discover that merchants sleep, too?

[Hel]

Elhanan wrote...

Helekanalaith wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I see your opinion, and raise you KOTOR, HotU, And DAO.

The first two had day-night cycles, sure. But none of them had extensive (or believeable?) living worlds, especially not DAO were everything remained the same every time you revisited areas.

You should have passed instead of raised. 

Good thing the outcome ain't based on your opinions, as I was immersed into KOTOR worlds completely. And I seem to recall having to wait for nightfall to have The Joining in DAO, as well as flirting with Leliana under the stars at camp. Or did you require the authentic travel needs to go to Denerim for supplies at night, only to discover that merchants sleep, too?

I see what you did there. 

Duncan did request your presence during the evening for the joining, yes. It just so happens that it was evening from the moment you returned from the Wilds (if I'm recalling the events correctly). That wasn't an actual day-to-night cycle so much as it was a staged jump to night. I'm not complaining about that, mind you, I prefer it over having to wait x-number of hours for the sun to set, but it isn't comparable to NWN's or TW's cycling.

As for the party camp... wasn't it (almost) always night there?

[Elhanan]

Helekanalaith wrote...

I see what you did there. 

Duncan did request your presence during the evening for the joining, yes. It just so happens that it was evening from the moment you returned from the Wilds (if I'm recalling the events correctly). That wasn't an actual day-to-night cycle so much as it was a staged jump to night. I'm not complaining about that, mind you, I prefer it over having to wait x-number of hours for the sun to set, but it isn't comparable to NWN's or TW's cycling.

As for the party camp... wasn't it (almost) always night there?

Yep; the Camp was almost night every time, as we were travelling during daylight as well as encountering most quests. I rather enjoyed not having to wait for ctcles to end, and was not too disturbed with the Quick fix DA2 presented. I actually appreciated it initially, as I was waiting around for the cycle to change in my initial play (cannot read the small print manuals).

But my point is that Bioware has done an exceptional job at immersing Players into new cultures, and the awards, reviews and other subjective data tend to support that claim; possibly even sales.

What I do not require is the tedium seen in many games claining to be realistic; prefer to avoid it while enjoying a game.

[Tardyjay]

IT's amazing how long such a dumb thread can go. This thread shouldn't even have been made in the first place. All it did was give people an excuse to be mean and call each other names for having opinions. Besides, this is a Dragon Age forum. We should be talking about Dragon Age 2. Not The Witcher. Not Fable. Not any of game you can try to compare to DA2. There is a reason Dragon Age isn't those games. It would be because DA2 is DA2. Like it or don't. Nobody really cares but spending days arguing with people over what Bioware should have taken from TW2 is a futile discussion. It also seems to have totally lost it's original meaning by the time you get to the end. Should have been locked out by page 5 lol

[gingerbill]

i'm not a fan of the witcher series so i wouldnt want bioware to take anything from it . I hear the word 'mature' used alot regarding the witcher , its a 13 year olds view of maturity , ****** and swearing does not equal maturity.

I far prefer DA2 combat too witcher 2 . Witcher 2 combat is like a poor action game . The way the story gives you choices in witcher 2 is good though but the gameplay and character development was just too shallow for what i look for in an RPG .

edit - just noticed this thread is under DA2 forum i thought it was off topic , which is were it should be.

Modifié par gingerbill, 07 juin 2011 - 02:40 .

[Dubya75]

gingerbill wrote...

i'm not a fan of the witcher series so i wouldnt want bioware to take anything from it . I hear the word 'mature' used alot regarding the witcher , its a 13 year olds view of maturity , ****** and swearing does not equal maturity.

I far prefer DA2 combat too witcher 2 . Witcher 2 combat is like a poor action game . The way the story gives you choices in witcher 2 is good though but the gameplay and character development was just too shallow for what i look for in an RPG .

edit - just noticed this thread is under DA2 forum i thought it was off topic , which is were it should be.

No it's not off-topic it is DA2 related.

Oh, and you probably haven't played TW2...didn't think so.

[Patriciachr34]

TheJediSaint wrote...

culletron1 wrote...

CDProjekt has stated that Bioware games have been an inspiration and you can see they lifted a lot of Bioware elements and put them into their witcher games...

So now that they have pushed the envelope a little bit with TW2 what elements do guys you think Bioware can take from the Witcher2 and add into their own games??


For instance I would love to see 

• The day/night cycles from TW2
• The life cycles of the NPCs (who always seem to be doing something)
• The more mature language
• The gfx (obviously) 

What would you like to see?

I'm just going to repond to the OP and ignore the flaming that's been going on
.
On the first part, I really am ok with the way that DA2 handled the day/night cycle.  Witcher 2's Day night system also worked very well, but In the end, both game allow the player to switch between day an night pretty much at will.

On the second point, I don't know if I would term Wither's language as more mature than DA 2's.   I dont think of the maturity of a game's language as being directly proptional to the number of F-bombs being dropped during the course of normal conversation. 

Now TW2 has pushed the envelope when it comes to sex scenes and (female) nudity in RPG, by alot.  What I find interseting is that there had not been a FOX news style scandal like what happend with the first Mass Effect, who's nudity was much less pronounced than Withcer 2's.  I don't know if that means Bioware should try to follow TW2's lead in that regard, I don't know if they would even be interested in that kind of thing.

Now TW2 is a much prettier game than DA2, especially with all the detail work that was put into Geralt's character model and the enviroments.  If anything, TW2 looks like a game that has been in development for several years, which it has.  I think the lesson that Bioware should take from that is to put a little more time into building enviroments and designing levels.  I dont need DA3 to be as pretty as TW2, but I would like it if I the same levels were not recycled over and over again for different quests.

I do think there were areas that DA2 was better than TW2.  The first thing that comes to mind is the difficultly curve.  DA2 does a better job keeping the difficulty more or less the same through out the level progression.  TW2 on the other hand starts murderously hard in the beqgining, then becomings progressivly easier until near the end Geralt is nearly unkillable.  And though I enjoyed the basic combat mechanics of both games, DA2's was much easier to learn and consquently, more fun to use.  I know this is a critism leveled at DA2 alot, but I found that with TW2's combat, I felt that it was a traditional RPG trying too hard to play like an action RPG.

In the end of the day, I enjoyed both DA2 and TW2 and I look forward to both of their respective sequels.  I think there's potential here for a great deal of cross pollination between Bioware and CD Projeckt, leading to a rise in the quality of both developer's products.

This.

[accessd]

Personally I've my doubts that BioWare can beat CD Project in the aspect of a combat rpg. The Witcher 2 is just stunning and succeeds in almost all areas. Fantastic game in its genre.

BioWare should rather go back and make a "slow paced" tactical rpg (Origins) in my opinion and drop the "awesome-button" all together.

And....no more console sellouts.

[Ariella]

accessd wrote...

Personally I've my doubts that BioWare can beat CD Project in the aspect of a combat rpg. The Witcher 2 is just stunning and succeeds in almost all areas. Fantastic game in its genre.

BioWare should rather go back and make a "slow paced" tactical rpg (Origins) in my opinion and drop the "awesome-button" all together.

And....no more console sellouts.

It's ironic that you call for an end to "console sellouts" when TW2 was created with a console port in mind and IS being ported as we speak.

You can't compare DA2 and Witcher 2 in a combat sense because they're based on two completely different principled of how combact is approached: party based combat vs. solo combat.

Just a thought...

[JamesMoriarty123]

Ariella wrote...

accessd wrote...

Personally I've my doubts that BioWare can beat CD Project in the aspect of a combat rpg. The Witcher 2 is just stunning and succeeds in almost all areas. Fantastic game in its genre.

BioWare should rather go back and make a "slow paced" tactical rpg (Origins) in my opinion and drop the "awesome-button" all together.

And....no more console sellouts.

It's ironic that you call for an end to "console sellouts" when TW2 was created with a console port in mind and IS being ported as we speak.

You can't compare DA2 and Witcher 2 in a combat sense because they're based on two completely different principled of how combact is approached: party based combat vs. solo combat.

Just a thought...

On the contrary, The Witcher 2 was developed and was conceived as a PC Only title. It was only after console interest that they considered porting. And they're actually "porting" it to console, it wasn't developed cross-platform.

But I agree with accessd, DA2 was indeed little more than a glorified console port.

[Dariuszp]

CDPR is just too small (they start few years ago and have only 2 games) so they cannot make 3 projects at once.
Still engine is made just so they can make console version of the game.

They said that there will be XBOX360 version of the game. They will consider PS3 version but right now they dont have people to work on it. Simple as that.

And about combat - I disagree. It's not "party based vs solo based". It's button smasher vs tactical.
99% of fights in DA II i end with one thing. Warrior at front spaming his skills and mages behind spammin spells. Nothing fancy. Just kill before you get killed (what was really hard - dying part). In Witcher 2 it's only take few second to get killed.

And this is worst part of the game. They don't hold your hand. You got instruction. You got hints while playing. And you will probably die few times before you learn that you can use quen to protect yourself, axii to make one enemy attack his friends, igni to set someone on fire etc.You can use traps and firecrackers from the start but game never tell you that. You got instruction but most of you probably never read in to it. I did not. I just learn as I play.

So what CDPR should take from Bioware ?
~ tutorial (any kind of tutorial :-D)
~ customization (not in Witcher but other projects - some people bla bla bla about this all time)

What Bioware should take from CDPR
~ graphic
~ world design (living world)
~ NPC behaviour (working in day, sleeping at night, doing random stuff, running if there is rain, not just standing and do nothing).
~ real time day / night cycle
~ story (more mature story, DA is +18 but why ? because of some blood on armor ?)
~ sex scenes (much beter than in DA II, little more nudity but not too much, made with taste)
~ combat mechanics (use tactics and loot of diferent kind of skills, not just smash buttons to see some awesome, dont need to by action oriented like in TW2)
~ choices and consequences - something that in DA II is made very very poor. I want my chocies to have real impact on the game
~ replayability - Witcher 2 should be played at least 2 times. Some part of story reveal things that are hidden for you if you paly it once. And it's everywhere (story behind dragon for example).
~ loading screens - yes, DA II got nice loading sceens but how much of them i saw in The Witcher ? 4 ? Or 5. If you play game from begnining to end, you got only 4-5 loading screens!!! That is something ! I dont want nice loading screens. I dont want them at all!
~ combat as whole - in TW you got enemies when they should be. You fight when you must. You dont have ninja from the sky or stupid waves. In one combat in DA II i was attack by more people than i saw in ENTIRE CITY.
~ dynamic dialogue system - in TW my character NEVER said something i dont want him to say - in DA II it was very common. Also in TW characters while talking - do something, not just standing. Best example - scene in Flotsam when they hang criminals.

That would be all. I will add something later if i remember something :-)

[Ariella]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

accessd wrote...

Personally I've my doubts that BioWare can beat CD Project in the aspect of a combat rpg. The Witcher 2 is just stunning and succeeds in almost all areas. Fantastic game in its genre.

BioWare should rather go back and make a "slow paced" tactical rpg (Origins) in my opinion and drop the "awesome-button" all together.

And....no more console sellouts.

It's ironic that you call for an end to "console sellouts" when TW2 was created with a console port in mind and IS being ported as we speak.

You can't compare DA2 and Witcher 2 in a combat sense because they're based on two completely different principled of how combact is approached: party based combat vs. solo combat.

Just a thought...

On the contrary, The Witcher 2 was developed and was conceived as a PC Only title. It was only after console interest that they considered porting. And they're actually "porting" it to console, it wasn't developed cross-platform.

But I agree with accessd, DA2 was indeed little more than a glorified console port.

Have you played TW2? I have and it plays like a console game. The mouse functionality of TW1 is gone, period, and it was developed with consoles in mind, it's easy to see in the redesign UI.

DA2 isn't a glorified console port, you're mixing it up with DAO. DA2 was designed cross platform from the bottom up.

[Ariella]

Dariuszp wrote...

CDPR is just too small (they start few years ago and have only 2 games) so they cannot make 3 projects at once.
Still engine is made just so they can make console version of the game.

They said that there will be XBOX360 version of the game. They will consider PS3 version but right now they dont have people to work on it. Simple as that.

And about combat - I disagree. It's not "party based vs solo based". It's button smasher vs tactical.
99% of fights in DA II i end with one thing. Warrior at front spaming his skills and mages behind spammin spells. Nothing fancy. Just kill before you get killed (what was really hard - dying part). In Witcher 2 it's only take few second to get killed.

And this is worst part of the game. They don't hold your hand. You got instruction. You got hints while playing. And you will probably die few times before you learn that you can use quen to protect yourself, axii to make one enemy attack his friends, igni to set someone on fire etc.You can use traps and firecrackers from the start but game never tell you that. You got instruction but most of you probably never read in to it. I did not. I just learn as I play.

So what CDPR should take from Bioware ?
~ tutorial (any kind of tutorial :-D)
~ customization (not in Witcher but other projects - some people bla bla bla about this all time)

What Bioware should take from CDPR
~ graphic
~ world design (living world)
~ NPC behaviour (working in day, sleeping at night, doing random stuff, running if there is rain, not just standing and do nothing).
~ real time day / night cycle
~ story (more mature story, DA is +18 but why ? because of some blood on armor ?)
~ sex scenes (much beter than in DA II, little more nudity but not too much, made with taste)
~ combat mechanics (use tactics and loot of diferent kind of skills, not just smash buttons to see some awesome, dont need to by action oriented like in TW2)
~ choices and consequences - something that in DA II is made very very poor. I want my chocies to have real impact on the game
~ replayability - Witcher 2 should be played at least 2 times. Some part of story reveal things that are hidden for you if you paly it once. And it's everywhere (story behind dragon for example).
~ loading screens - yes, DA II got nice loading sceens but how much of them i saw in The Witcher ? 4 ? Or 5. If you play game from begnining to end, you got only 4-5 loading screens!!! That is something ! I dont want nice loading screens. I dont want them at all!
~ combat as whole - in TW you got enemies when they should be. You fight when you must. You dont have ninja from the sky or stupid waves. In one combat in DA II i was attack by more people than i saw in ENTIRE CITY.
~ dynamic dialogue system - in TW my character NEVER said something i dont want him to say - in DA II it was very common. Also in TW characters while talking - do something, not just standing. Best example - scene in Flotsam when they hang criminals.

That would be all. I will add something later if i remember something :-)

I'm going to have to diagree on combat and load screens. Geralt can do a little of everything, but not well, especially in the begining where the unbalanced difficulty is just obvious.

I saw more load screens in TW2 than I ever did in Da2. Loads during area transitions, fine, but I got loads during the same area, and the fact that DA load screens include info on the game and story where as the TW2 loads are just pretty pictures.

I never really saw Witcher as being all that mature except for language, sex, and violence. At least in DA2 there are some major psychological themes to deal with.

And spare me from day/night cycles, they get old after awhile, I find Bioware's solutions a great deal more elegant.

[lobi]

Why the witcher2? The first Witcher game has the elements everyone is talking about. I am playing it again and this time I am gonna get ALL the cards, and make Geralt fight every monster drunk outa his mind. yippeeeeee.

[Lumikki]

I can only talk TW1 perspective, because haven't played TW2 yet.

So, far I haven't found many things what DA series could learn from TW serie, because most of it DA serie allready has done better. How ever, there is a few things what I think TW is doing better. That's game general atmosphere as trying to create living world with small details. Example weather/night/day cycle and npcs. I know DA2 also had night/date cycle but it was still very static, even if it was handy. I also liked how world also affects the npcs around the lands in TW. Too bad I haven't played TW2 yet to say anything more. In my opinion DA worlds (mostly DA2) it's just too steril, not enough life in it. Sure, npcs moved little bit, but mostly it's very static world, nothing ever change. How would I say this: not enough fluff.

Collect sex cards was insult agaist females, like we are just some kind of trophies.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 juin 2011 - 02:48 .

[lobi]

Lumikki wrote...

Collect sex cards was insult agaist females, like we are just some kind of trophies.

I have kept some football jerseys and some Tshirts from ex's. The cards are memories, not a bad thing.

[Ariella]

lobi wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Collect sex cards was insult agaist females, like we are just some kind of trophies.

I have kept some football jerseys and some Tshirts from ex's. The cards are memories, not a bad thing.

Big difference between keeping something from an ex and cards respresenting one night stands... Makes women like Pokeman: Gotta catchem all!

[Parahexavoctal]

~ NPC behaviour (working in day, sleeping at night, doing random stuff, running if there is rain, not just standing and do nothing).
~ real time day / night cycle

I haven't experienced TW2's implementation of this yet, but if it is anything like Oblivion or Fallout 3, I'd rather not see it. Or at least, I would rather see a different implementation which eliminates some of the drawbacks while keeping the bonus immersion points.

In TES:O and FO3, I have had this happen to me way too often:
- I want to buy something but shop isn't open; have to use the wait command to have my character twiddle her thumbs for 5 hours.. this doesn't help my immersion at all and it's frustrating to boot.
- I need to speak to someone for a quest, but they are nowhere to be found. Just yesterday I wasted an hour of fruitlessly searching for an NPC that I wouldn't even have found if I hadn't read a wiki entry mentioning she is scripted to visit her good friend in a far away city every month... 5 points for realism, -10 points for wasting my time.
- Quest or plot event is scripted to take place at a certain time; yeah, it's good for immersion when the NPC tells you to meet them at the bar tonight. But what really happens? You go to the bar right away and use the wait function to accellerate to evening - and then you twiddle your thumbs in front of your screen for 5 minutes, bored out of your skull while you wait for the NPC to show up, afraid of missing the meeting if you timeskip any further...
(And let's not forget the fun variant where the quest doesn't clearly infer that time of day matters and you spend half an hour of your life wondering why the stupid thing just doesn't trigger)

I'm sure a creative game designer can come up with a way to give us a living breathing world with complex NPC behaviors and day/night/time-of-day integration, while avoiding frustrations like I mention above.. but I think they have to pay very careful attention to the impact of adding realism like this.

[digby69]

were talking about RPG here folks, so day/night cycles and npc behavour is critical to having a real life like experience. Even if it is blood fustrating (just like life).

[Parahexavoctal]

I wouldn't say it is critical; quite a few great RPG titles didn't have it. It is a game after all, it doesn't have to let realism get in the way of having fun. I can immerse myself fine in a story that time skips parts where nothing happened, whether the story is a good book, movie or game.

[digby69]

yer perhaps critical was a bit over the top, what I was trying to do was have a go at all the people who complained that day/night cycles got in the way of them doing something like going to a shop etc. and they didn't like having to go look for npc who was roaming about. to me thats all part of the game experience.

[Corto81]

Lumikki wrote...

I can only talk TW1 perspective, because haven't played TW2 yet.

Parahexavoctal wrote...

I haven't experienced TW2's
implementation of this yet, but if it is anything like Oblivion or
Fallout 3, I'd rather not see it.

Seriously... Why post in this thread then?
To say you're against something you haven't even experienced? I don't get it.

[Parahexavoctal]

Seriously... Why post in this thread then?
To say you're against something you haven't even experienced? I don't get it.

No, more to discuss which elements from other RPGs Bioware should or shouldn't adopt. TW2 may have started it, but even if it isn't taken directly from TW2, it's still within the idea of the thread I think.