21 réponses à ce sujet

[CoffeeHolic93]

  This has been bothering me for quite a while now. How come there's no benevolent spirits of desire/rage/pride etc.? According to justice only perverted spirits become demons. Are spirits associated with those emotions really that susceptible to perversion? Or am I missing something?

[caradoc2000]

Those are generally seen as (deadly) vices.

[GSSAGE7]

They're only there aren't exactly spirits of pride, just like there are no demons of valor. The values/vices determine if they are demons or spirits. They aren't exactly set in stone either, as we know a spirit of Justice turned into a demon of Vengence.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Some, like the Dalish, claim that good and evil is all relative when you're talking about spirits/demons. They are no different to people when it comes to the varied shades of morality, and all of them can be dangerous.

The Chantry say that envy, pride, desire, rage etc. are qualities that make spirits into (evil) demons. They want what humans have, and in DAA Justice seems to confirm this. Justice said that spirits, unlike demons, want little to do with humans and pity them rather than envy them.

It's been suggested that contact with humans is what can corrupt spirits. I suppose that might depend on the human and his/her vices, as well as the spirit.

[GSSAGE7]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
It's been suggested that contact with humans is what can corrupt spirits. I suppose that might depend on the human and his/her vices, as well as the spirit.

The situation with Justice was because Anders REALLY hated the chantry/circle/templars. Keep in mind, Wynne's Spirit of Faith doesn't go anywhere near as nuts as Justice.

[IapetusNeume]

If a demon only becomes one after it's been perverted, then maybe it has to originally be the "good" side to whatever it would become otherwise? Justice/Vengeance was mentioned, and that is a great example.

It would be interesting to see what all the starting and end forms for these spirits and demons would be.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
It's been suggested that contact with humans is what can corrupt spirits. I suppose that might depend on the human and his/her vices, as well as the spirit.

The situation with Justice was because Anders REALLY hated the chantry/circle/templars. Keep in mind, Wynne's Spirit of Faith doesn't go anywhere near as nuts as Justice.

That's why I said it may be dependent on the spirit and the human it bonds with.

As for Wynne, keep in mind we only really see her for 1-2 years. If she's still alive by the end of DA2 several years later after the mage/templar thing, who knows?

[CoffeeHolic93]

Thanks for the input!
I just assumed that with biowares tendency to subvert stereotypes, the spirit/demon thing was an obvious contender. Especially after Justice->Pissed Off Anders->Vengeance came into play. I wonder if it works the other way around aswell?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

You mean could a mortal influence a maleficent spirit to become benevolent?

Interesting concept. My initial response was going to be 'no' because demons seem to go for full possession right off the bat, but then I remembered the desire demon and the templar in Broken Circle. She charms him but doesn't possess him, and her claims (if they are true) suggest a desire to experience life as a mortal via companionship.

It would be interesting if that companionship developed into the demon releasing the templar from her spell and letting him choose, seeing what she really is. But I don't know if the demon was sincere in her claims...she might have just been lying to convince the Warden she meant no harm.

[maxernst]

Maybe, but I wonder if Anders account of how Justice became perverted is really accurate. Maybe Justice was really a demon to begin with. By his own words, the desire to occupy mortal bodies is a characteristic of demons not beneficial spirits (though that calls Wynne into question as well...). Based on what we see in game (Connor, Uldred), I think a case could be made that possession is never completely involuntary. Maybe Justice is just subtler than the other demons and allows Anders to appear in control much of the time because he's smart enough to realize he doesn't understand the world well enough to accomplish his aims.

In any event, it does seem that either the host of a demon inlfuences its behavior or the demon honors its deals after a fashion after posession, because Connor's demon does keep his father alive and Uldred's does, after a fashion, seek to "free" the Circle in a perverse way. So I suppose a malevolent demon being influenced by the desires and objectives of its host is not out of the question.

Modifié par maxernst, 01 juin 2011 - 10:54 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maybe, but I wonder if Anders account of how Justice became perverted is really accurate. Maybe Justice was really a demon to begin with. By his own words, the desire to occupy mortal bodies is a characteristic of demons not beneficial spirits (though that calls Wynne into question as well...). Based on what we see in game (Connor, Uldred), I think a case could be made that possession is never completely involuntary. Maybe Justice is just subtler than the other demons and allows Anders to appear in control much of the time because he's smart enough to realize he doesn't understand the world well enough to accomplish his aims.

--------

Justice is arguably influenced as soon as he started dealing with mortal spirits in the Fade, then when he enters the mortal world. His dialogue in Awakening states his character finds possession of a living being repugnant, a thing only demons would consider. He says spirits pity mortals while demons envy them.

Yet as the game progresses he says *he* starts to envy humans and the living world they are a part of. He starts to desire material things. His change starts before he merges with Anders, but Anders continues that influence and worse. As a mage, Anders gives Justice access to magic and the Fade, which he didn't have in Kristoff's dead body.

I agree that how we've seen possession indicates it can never be involuntary. The demon/spirit needs a window, whether it be forced open or manipulated. Even the little girl in Stone Prisoner could avoid possession just by saying 'no' and running.

But demons/spirits don't need permission to possess corpses. We see it all the time with the arcane horrors and ravenous skeletons or whatever--all demons in dead bodies. Justice inhabits Kristoff. Wynne says she was possessed when she died, but her spirit weakened itself to bring her back to life and continues to weaken while it supports her.

In any event, it does seem that either the host of a demon inlfuences its behavior or the demon honors its deals after a fashion after posession, because Connor's demon does keep his father alive and Uldred's does, after a fashion, seek to "free" the Circle in a perverse way. So I suppose a malevolent demon being influenced by the desires and objectives of its host is not out of the question.

It might depend on the nature of the possession. The way Anders describes his it's like two souls are so entwined they're practically one consciousness--it's hard to tell whose thoughts are whose for him, even though there are very obvious lapses where Justice is dominant and Anders is struggling against him or powerless.

Wynne describes her possession very differently.

But they were possessed for different reasons.

Anders was given a choice, and Justice offered his power for the specific purpose to fight the 'injustice of the Circle'.

Wynne was dead and had no choice. Her spirit stepped in and restored her life, keeping her alive at its own expense.

[CoffeeHolic93]

 Very interesting feedback!Also, do spirits/demons account for different types of desire? They've portrayed lust, power and knowledge - but what about the desire to help someone? That's benevolent, isn't it?  

Edit: About the malevolent->benevolent thing - Yes I can see that happening. I doubt they will fall into the 'always chaotic evil' category (even though that seems to be the case so far.)

Modifié par Mi-Chan, 02 juin 2011 - 04:41 .

[Rvlion]

Mi-Chan wrote...

  This has been bothering me for quite a while now. How come there's no benevolent spirits of desire/rage/pride etc.? According to justice only perverted spirits become demons. Are spirits associated with those emotions really that susceptible to perversion? Or am I missing something?

Think of it as Jedi, too much desire/rage/pride/jealousy leeds to the dark side... Spirits become demons.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Mi-Chan wrote...

 Very interesting feedback!Also, do spirits/demons account for different types of desire? They've portrayed lust, power and knowledge - but what about the desire to help someone? That's benevolent, isn't it?  

Desire demons as they're currently portrayed are not meant to be benevolent...they prey on the desires of mortals, good or selfish desires, and use them as lures to attract hosts. Connor wanted to help his father, and a desire demon got to him through that. Yes it kept Eamon from worsening, but the price was a LOT of lives at Redcliffe.

Are there spirits/demons who would help for the sake of desiring to help? Maybe. You could say Wynne's spirit acted on a desire to help her. We don't
know its motives, but she seems to think it's always been guarding her
against danger.

[CoffeeHolic93]

 As far as I can see, the only "deal" with a spirit that went well was wynne and her spirit of faith. Everything else had some sort of major drawback, of some sort.  And desire demons preying on a desire to help is downright cruel. <_< At least this is excellent food for thought.

[GSSAGE7]

Mi-Chan wrote...

 As far as I can see, the only "deal" with a spirit that went well was wynne and her spirit of faith. Everything else had some sort of major drawback, of some sort.

You have to remember that spirits don't typically make deals. They don't seem to care. Although if you want to get technical, the Mage Warden's deal with a Spirit of Valor had no consequences.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Of course, of course - I just find it hard to believe that it occurs so rarely considering how ubiquitous mages are. Especially considering Wynne mentioning that the spirits form our dreams if I recall...

[Furtled]

Mi-Chan wrote...
 As far as I can see, the only "deal" with a spirit that went well was wynne and her spirit of faith. Everything else had some sort of major drawback, of some sort.  And desire demons preying on a desire to help is downright cruel. <_< At least this is excellent food for thought.

I wonder how the Spirit Warrior specialisation fits into all this, it's not a permananent set-up but there's still a deal going on that appears to have no negative comeback.

[CoffeeHolic93]

"They flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world." - Spirit warrior.
"Not all entities of the Fade are demonic. Many are benevolent entities consisting of life energy, which can be called upon to mend flesh and heal disease. Spirit healers focus on channeling the energies granted by these spirits." - Spirit healer.

Thanks for mentioning that. These specializations imply demons aren't the only ones interested in the mortal world/mortals. It's sad that we can't interact with these benevolent spirits.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Part of me thinks we don't have more benevolent spirit contact because they'd be able to answer questions like: "Is the Maker real?" or "What happened to the Golden City?"

I'm a little annoyed you couldn't ask Justice anything about the Fade in DAA. About the only thing he had to offer besides spirits/demons was that the souls of the dead go somewhere beyond the Fade, and spirits had no more answers as to what the destination is than mortals do.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He does talk about it actually. But doesn't mention the Golden City specifically but at the statue of Andraste in Amaranthine Justice explains that he actually has no special knowledge about whether the Maker exists or not. He says that many spirits believe there is a creator but he isn't sure if they believe that because they knew about one themselves or if they see it in the dreams of mortals.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 juin 2011 - 08:30 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hm. I have never gotten this dialogue. Thanks for the info.