638 réponses à ce sujet

[Skilled Seeker]

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do. He brutally murders the Viscount, despite the Viscount appeasing him ever since he landed in Kirkwall. Then there's the fact that he declares war at all and decides to take over the city where he is a guest just because he hasn't managed to find an unrelated book and he doesn't like the society. There is no logic at all behind such a move, he had no chance of taking over and this would be viewed as a declaration of war, meaning Thedas would go to war with the Qunari again. He didn't consult with the other 2 leaders of his people over this decision and just got blinded by rage and took matters into his own hands, ultimately leading to his humiliating death or withdrawal and no good accomplished whatsoever, though a serious blow to Qunari reputation and morale.

So why do people respect him?

[rak72]

I often wonder about all of the Arishok love as well. It's like the episode of the Brady Bunch, where Bobby worships Jessy James because he's cool. Then he has the dream where Jessy murders his entire family in the train robbery and he finally sees that Jessy is no more than a murderous scoundrel.

[HogarthHughes 3]

The Viscount was in charge of Kirkwall. The assaults on Qunari converts, delegates, and attempts to blame them for unleashing poison in the city all happened under his watch. It is not unreasonable for the Arishok to expect the Viscount to be held responsible for such things, unless he cannot truly claim to be in control of the city? It isn't just one or two isolated incidents, there is a group of fanatics eager to provoke the Qunari, and the Viscount is unable to stop them for years.

The Arishok never lies about their purpose in Kirkwall, though admittedly he isn't exactly forthcoming about it either. Still, would it have been wise for him to tell everyone about the Tome of Koslun? Would people jump to get it for them so they could leave Kirkwall, or would they just sell it to the highest bidder? I suspect he felt that it was a Qunari issue, and should be handled by them.

*edit - As to why I have some respect for him, he is one of the few main characters in the game who doesn't come across as weaksauce/inept (Viscount, Elthina), a hypocrite (Orsino, Anders), or bat@%*! crazy.  However bass-ackwards their super-communist beliefs may be, the Qunari did not deserve to be treated as they were.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 24 mai 2011 - 09:54 .

[Rifneno]

I've wondered this myself.  I don't get it at all.  It seems like even the devs think this scumbag is deserving of respect, as there's no dialogue options to call him on his cowardice and bull****.  I really, really wanted to initate combat by tossing a fireball at the Tome of Koslun.  Instead, if you gain Isabela's loyalty there's actually no way not to let those murdering savages have their damn book.  That is one of the dumbest parts of the game.  Which is saying a lot, considering Act III is basically an assault on common sense. 

[Skilled Seeker]

Yeah it's a shame that Hawke respects the Arishok too, regardless of what dialogue option you pick.

[Wulfram]

The Qunari routinely kill converts from their faith, have no problem massacring Aveline and Hawke's delegation and are - partly - to blame for unleashing poison in the city.

Plus, if you hold the Viscount to blame for the actions of disloyal people in the city, what about all the Tal Vashoth going around murdering the Viscount's subjects?  Do we give the Arishok a free pass on them?

edit: the Arishok is inept, a hypocrite and - since this is a requirement to be a Qunari - bat@%*! crazy

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 mai 2011 - 09:57 .

[Amagoi]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do.

He did this when? The diplomatic party was full of warriors, not willing to back down and prepared to fight. It was never an agreed diplomatic meeting. It was the Guard of Kirkwall, an authority he did not answer to, demanding he hand over his own people. Neither side was going to back down, and with good reason.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

He brutally murders the Viscount, despite the Viscount appeasing him ever since he landed in Kirkwall. Then there's the fact that he declares war at all and decides to take over the city where he is a guest just because he hasn't managed to find an unrelated book and he doesn't like the society. There is no logic at all behind such a move, he had no chance of taking over and this would be viewed as a declaration of war, meaning Thedas would go to war with the Qunari again.

From his view, I imagine the Viscount was mostly a symbolic death. From what the Arishok saw from his time in Kirkwall, the system of the city was broken. Corruption was rampant, the people increasinly hostile to his men. There is logic to this: Everyone has a point in which they can say "No more.", this was the Arishok's point. Kirkwall was being run by corrupt nobles beyond saving or negotiation, and being a military man first and foremost the solution was clear to him.

I imagine from what he could tell, people like the nobility of Kirkwall weren't worth holding a treaty with. Better they die so that citizens of the city could find better lives with the Qun.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

He didn't consult with the other 2 leaders of his people over this decision and just got blinded by rage and took matters into his own hands, ultimately leading to his humiliating death or withdrawal and no good accomplished whatsoever, though a serious blow to Qunari reputation and morale.

So why do people respect him?

How would he consult with the Ariqun and the Arigena? Messengers? He's in Kirkwall, they are in Par Vollen. Any messages would take months to reach either party.

I don't agree with everything he did, I don't like some of it. But he was a good character. The Arishok had easy to see motives and goals, and he was always honest about them. There's quite a bit to respect. Like I said, I'm not agreeing with everything. I liked the Viscount personally, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate because this thread seems to need one.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am not sure respect is what I feel towards him (especially since in retrospect, his plan doesn't make much sense to me). But rather me being intrigued.

But to be truthful, there is not a single character in DA2 that I respect.

And as a character, I found him vastly more interesting than the others. and  enjoyed our talks with him and seeing him develop as a character (unlike say Orsino and Meredith).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[kromify]

because he's big and scary? i like to keep a respectable distance from them.

seriously; i think it's because he acts honourably. while you may disagree with that; you have to remember that he has a different code and culture from ours or kirkwalls.

[Wulfram]

kromify wrote...

because he's big and scary? i like to keep a respectable distance from them.

seriously; i think it's because he acts honourably. while you may disagree with that; you have to remember that he has a different code and culture from ours or kirkwalls.

Having a code that says it's OK to be a treacherous murdering bastard doesn't make it so.

[Rifneno]

kromify wrote...

seriously; i think it's because he acts honourably. while you may disagree with that; you have to remember that he has a different code and culture from ours or kirkwalls.

So did Osama bin Laden.  He didn't get a free pass either.

[kromify]

it does if you live by that code. morals are subjective

[HogarthHughes 3]

I sincerely doubt the Tal Vashoth are able to act with such impunity in a Qunari city. It was the Viscounts responsibility to rein his people in. City guards looked the other way as his delegates, who had been asked to bind their weapons in their sheaths, are taken underground to be tortured and murdered. Certainly, the Viscount doesn't want the fanatics to do these things, but he is unable to stop them. Elthina shares some of that blame as well, when you bring her evidence of the delegates being taken in her name she says some crap about things working themselves out in time. Of course she only bothers to discipline Petrice after she murders Saemus. If you want to be a leader in Kirkwall apparently you have to be inept or overzealous.

When the Arishok orders the delegation executed, it was an act of war. Not saying it was the right or wrong thing to do, but I can see how by that point he had had enough of sitting on his hands.

[kromify]

Rifneno wrote...

kromify wrote...

seriously; i think it's because he acts honourably. while you may disagree with that; you have to remember that he has a different code and culture from ours or kirkwalls.

So did Osama bin Laden.  He didn't get a free pass either.

really? he's only just lost said pass.

never assume one culture is the correct one. racial variances in personalities can make a different code/ system of government/ morality  better for different people

[Rifneno]

kromify wrote...

really? he's only just lost said pass.

never assume one culture is the correct one. racial variances in personalities can make a different code/ system of government/ morality  better for different people

I don't assume one culture is the correct one. I assume mass murder against people unrelated to the ones who wronged you is wrong.

[kromify]

Rifneno wrote...

kromify wrote...

really? he's only just lost said pass.

never assume one culture is the correct one. racial variances in personalities can make a different code/ system of government/ morality  better for different people

I don't assume one culture is the correct one. I assume mass murder against people unrelated to the ones who wronged you is wrong.

uh... who's mass murder are we talking about now? real life or dragon age life?  

[Abispa]

1) He looked formidable.

2) His VA was well-done.

3) He made sense. No, I'm not saying the Qun makes sense, but he did. Once the "demands of the Qun" were introduced to the player, just about everything the Arishock did was fairly consistent within that communist/Spartan philosophy. The build up of tension inside Kirkwall, Mother Petrice's manipulations, the elves' conversions and his eventual attack on the city was well done and logical and helped to make Act 2 the best part of the game. At no time did I feel that Bioware was writing him by committee and making him up as they went along like I did with Orsino and Meredith.

4) He helps make the hero, and, considering the reviews I've read, he helped save the game. I'm not sure if even the most ardent DA2 defender could defend this game if it didn't have the Arishock in Act 2. Every good hero is established by facing a good villain (in DA:O it was Loghain, not the lousy arch-demon), and in DA2 it was the Arishock and NOT Meredith.

[Huntress]

The OP missed what the zealot Patrice and her templar did the hole time in the name of Eternity.

What Patrice did to Hawk, to viscount son, to the qunari delegates, to one part of the town been fill with poison stolen from the qunari and ready to blame the qunari for it.

All that was done by sister patrice and her zealot gang. Remember? For how long would you indure all that if you were the Arishock?

Edit:
"He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do"

Are you sure? one thing was clear, the guards were demanding for the elves to be put on trial because they assasinated a guard who wanted to rape their sister... The guards ignored the elves asking for help and then want to send them to jail for defending the sister honor, civilized you said...

Modifié par Huntress, 24 mai 2011 - 10:37 .

[Rifneno]

kromify wrote...

uh... who's mass murder are we talking about now? real life or dragon age life?  

Either one. Ethics, while malleable to situation, are not confined to a location. If it is wrong here, it is wrong there.

[Wulfram]

Petrice simply acted like a Qunari.

And I wouldn't endure. I'd go home. I certainly wouldn't throw a hissy fit and start murdering people.

[HogarthHughes 3]

To the Qunari, the entire society of Kirkwall is the root of the problem. To them, life under the Qun would be a blessing compared to their current situation. The Qunari have a pretty fascist society, the only way to convert a large unwilling populace to such is with force. Again, whether or not their Qun is wrong, the Qunari are at least sincere in their beliefs and act in an honorable manner.

[Skilled Seeker]

Amagoi wrote...
He did this when? The diplomatic party was full of warriors, not willing to back down and prepared to fight. It was never an agreed diplomatic meeting. It was the Guard of Kirkwall, an authority he did not answer to, demanding he hand over his own people. Neither side was going to back down, and with good reason.

Aveline made it clear that they were not looking for a fight but a peaceful resolution. He is a guest in the city, he should answer to the guard or leave. Certainly he should not get involved in trivial matters such as the elven fugatives. He must have wanted war otherwise he would have handed them over. He knew Kirkwall could not allow the Qunari to live under a different law, otherwise anyone could commit crimes then convert to the Qun and be untouchable.

Amagoi wrote...
From his view, I imagine the Viscount was mostly a symbolic death. From what the Arishok saw from his time in Kirkwall, the system of the city was broken. Corruption was rampant, the people increasinly hostile to his men. There is logic to this: Everyone has a point in which they can say "No more.", this was the Arishok's point. Kirkwall was being run by corrupt nobles beyond saving or negotiation, and being a military man first and foremost the solution was clear to him.

I imagine from what he could tell, people like the nobility of Kirkwall weren't worth holding a treaty with. Better they die so that citizens of the city could find better lives with the Qun.

Except his solution was suicide. He did not have the manpower to take Kirkwall. What did he expect to accomplish from his rampage?

Amagoi wrote...
How would he consult with the Ariqun and the Arigena? Messengers? He's in Kirkwall, they are in Par Vollen. Any messages would take months to reach either party.

Yes messengers. He was willing to wait 3+ years doing nothing. He could have waited a few more months to tell the others of his plans, see if they agree with him, request reinforcements to successfully invade Kirkwall. His actions affect all Qunari and he carries great responsibilty as a result. He should not make such important decisions in haste without the other leaders of his people having a say.

Amagoi wrote...
I don't agree with everything he did, I don't like some of it. But he was a good character. The Arishok had easy to see motives and goals, and he was always honest about them. There's quite a bit to respect. Like I said, I'm not agreeing with everything. I liked the Viscount personally, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate because this thread seems to need one.

He is a well written character, I agree. However he is not worthy of respect in my eyes.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 24 mai 2011 - 11:18 .

[Kasces]

Amagoi wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do.

He did this when? The diplomatic party was full of warriors, not willing to back down and prepared to fight. It was never an agreed diplomatic meeting. It was the Guard of Kirkwall, an authority he did not answer to, demanding he hand over his own people. Neither side was going to back down, and with good reason.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

He brutally murders the Viscount, despite the Viscount appeasing him ever since he landed in Kirkwall. Then there's the fact that he declares war at all and decides to take over the city where he is a guest just because he hasn't managed to find an unrelated book and he doesn't like the society. There is no logic at all behind such a move, he had no chance of taking over and this would be viewed as a declaration of war, meaning Thedas would go to war with the Qunari again.

From his view, I imagine the Viscount was mostly a symbolic death. From what the Arishok saw from his time in Kirkwall, the system of the city was broken. Corruption was rampant, the people increasinly hostile to his men. There is logic to this: Everyone has a point in which they can say "No more.", this was the Arishok's point. Kirkwall was being run by corrupt nobles beyond saving or negotiation, and being a military man first and foremost the solution was clear to him.

I imagine from what he could tell, people like the nobility of Kirkwall weren't worth holding a treaty with. Better they die so that citizens of the city could find better lives with the Qun.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

He didn't consult with the other 2 leaders of his people over this decision and just got blinded by rage and took matters into his own hands, ultimately leading to his humiliating death or withdrawal and no good accomplished whatsoever, though a serious blow to Qunari reputation and morale.

So why do people respect him?

How would he consult with the Ariqun and the Arigena? Messengers? He's in Kirkwall, they are in Par Vollen. Any messages would take months to reach either party.

I don't agree with everything he did, I don't like some of it. But he was a good character. The Arishok had easy to see motives and goals, and he was always honest about them. There's quite a bit to respect. Like I said, I'm not agreeing with everything. I liked the Viscount personally, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate because this thread seems to need one.

I just want to add to the last bit there would be no need to consult with the other two, because they all follow the Qun. If the Qun says something, they'll all agree to it because the Qun makes deamnds of you, not the other way around.