638 réponses à ce sujet

[RangerSG]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm, Tal Vasoth aren't Qunari. Qunari doesn't have the problems Kirkwall does.

Qunari does not submit to other authorities, but believe that all others should submit to theirs, he is consistent with that belief.

Isabela is anything but simple. And have you ever had to try and find someone in a city of thousands with nothing to go on but the fact that they stole something that belongs to you? Not easy. He could've jsut razed Kirkwall to the ground when he arrived, but he felt that would cause too much death to the unenlightened. Instead he went on the most difficult path, to hopefully save lifes. He gets frustrated over the years partly because Isabela is hard to find, and because he is conflicted wether or not he should do something about the problems in Kirkwall.

To die for your purpose is glorious. If the Arishok died, fulfilling his duty, it would have been an honorable death. If you kill him and keep the tome, you will merely have obstructed the Qunari from fulfilling a demand of the Qun, and they will come again, sooner than otherwise.

Well put.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

He has one of the better voice acted parts, he tries for 7 years to get Dumar to man up and bring peace to Kirkwall, he only attacks out of desperation because it either ends with his rule under the Qun or with Hawke ruling in peace. This guy makes more sense than Meredith and Orsino combined.

Modifié par TOBY FLENDERSON, 27 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[dragonflight288]

Well, with Qunari you don't have to worry about hidden agendas or complicated motives. You get what you see.

[Lumikki]

Yeah, Arishok was funny fanatic, who believed his ways is the right way. Everyone has to accept his way. What I can tell, stupid.

In freedom there is never perfect order, because people has rights to disagree. In Arishok's way, if you disagree, you die. You have no other option that accept the place where you are and what you are.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 mai 2011 - 11:59 .

[RangerSG]

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, Arishok was funny fanatic, who believed his ways is the right way. Everyone has to accept his way. What I can tell, stupid.

In freedom there is never perfect order, because people has rights to disagree. In Arishok's way, if you disagree, you die. You have no other option that accept the place where you are and what you are.

Of couse, one might ask how 'free' Kirkwall was, given it's a medeival society that oppresses 2/3rds of the population and has limited social mobility.

[Lumikki]

RangerSG wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, Arishok was funny fanatic, who believed his ways is the right way. Everyone has to accept his way. What I can tell, stupid.

In freedom there is never perfect order, because people has rights to disagree. In Arishok's way, if you disagree, you die. You have no other option that accept the place where you are and what you are.

Of couse, one might ask how 'free' Kirkwall was, given it's a medeival society that oppresses 2/3rds of the population and has limited social mobility.

You could ask, is dead better than poor?

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 mai 2011 - 12:05 .

[Speakeasy13]

Lumikki wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, Arishok was funny fanatic, who believed his ways is the right way. Everyone has to accept his way. What I can tell, stupid.

In freedom there is never perfect order, because people has rights to disagree. In Arishok's way, if you disagree, you die. You have no other option that accept the place where you are and what you are.

Of couse, one might ask how 'free' Kirkwall was, given it's a medeival society that oppresses 2/3rds of the population and has limited social mobility.

You could ask, is dead better than poor?

Again, we need to go back to cultural relativism. We tend to value freedom over order, but not every culture does. We can always assume what works for us always work for other people. The Qunaris, save the Tal-Valshoth, simply don't value freedom. It's not that difficult to respectfully disagree.

[Xilizhra]

It is for the qunari.

[dragonflight288]

It's true. The Qunari have the Qun place EVERYONE in a role, and Sten says they are examined and placed in a role that suits their capabilities and attributes. But once in that role, that's all you do.

Under the Qun, there is no seeking happiness in a new career, there is no wanting something else. If you are a farmer, you are forever a farmer. If you are a merchant, you are forever a merchant. If you are a soldier, you are forever a soldier. If you are a farmer wanting to be a merchant, the Qun will not let you be one.

There is no freedom in that system. Everyone has a place, everyone knows their role and serves as best they can. And from I can tell, there is little happiness.

If we are given an option to join the Qun, I may just play that option simply to see what it's like in a society under the Qun.

[Lumikki]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Again, we need to go back to cultural relativism. We tend to value freedom over order, but not every culture does. We can always assume what works for us always work for other people. The Qunaris, save the Tal-Valshoth, simply don't value freedom. It's not that difficult to respectfully disagree.

There is line when order goes too far and when there is balance between order and freedom. Our modern society value both order and freedom. Qunari system is without any freedom. Obey or die.

Too much freedom leads in chaos.
Too much order leads, no freedom at all.

Yeah, we disagree big time. 

Watch this movie: Cubic (Equilibrium) ,there is you perfect order.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[RangerSG]

Lumikki wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Again, we need to go back to cultural relativism. We tend to value freedom over order, but not every culture does. We can always assume what works for us always work for other people. The Qunaris, save the Tal-Valshoth, simply don't value freedom. It's not that difficult to respectfully disagree.

There is line when order goes too far and when there is balance between order and freedom. Our modern society value both order and freedom. Qunari system is without any freedom. Obey or die.

Too much freedom leads in chaos.
Too much order leads, no freedom at all.

Yeah, we disagree big time. 

Watch this movie: Cubic (Equilibrium) ,there is you perfect order.

And Kirkwall had descended into chaos because there was no Order. The Qunari were hardly wrong in their analysis, only their solution. And imposing modern values on a society that lacks them is always a failed analysis, and makes the mistake of assuming we're right and everyone before must be wrong.

[Speakeasy13]

Lumikki wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Again, we need to go back to cultural relativism. We tend to value freedom over order, but not every culture does. We can always assume what works for us always work for other people. The Qunaris, save the Tal-Valshoth, simply don't value freedom. It's not that difficult to respectfully disagree.

There is line when order goes too far and when there is balance between order and freedom. Our modern society value both order and freedom. Qunari system is without any freedom. Obey or die.

Too much freedom leads in chaos.
Too much order leads, no freedom at all.

Yeah, we disagree big time. 

Watch this movie: Cubic (Equilibrium) ,there is you perfect order.

I don't disagree with you. I share your values of preferrng freedom over emposed order. I just don't deny that other values may work just as well for other people.

Not every society needs to be exactly the same, and there is certainly no such thing as an equilibrium when it comes to the freedom vs. order dichotomy. C'mon, equilibrum is a 19th Century social sciense theory long since discredited.

I don't think it's Obey or Die for the Qun; at least not for the Qunari. There's always the Tal-Vashoth option.

And how about inclusiveness and equality? The Qunari seem to have more of those than the humans. The Qun will accept you as a human, Elf or Dwarf; they don't have nobles or class-differences, and no one's above the law in their society. Aren't those ideals that we value too?

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's true. The Qunari have the Qun place EVERYONE in a role, and Sten says they are examined and placed in a role that suits their capabilities and attributes. But once in that role, that's all you do. 

Under the Qun, there is no seeking happiness in a new career, there is no wanting something else. If you are a farmer, you are forever a farmer. If you are a merchant, you are forever a merchant. If you are a soldier, you are forever a soldier. If you are a farmer wanting to be a merchant, the Qun will not let you be one. 

There is no freedom in that system. Everyone has a place, everyone knows their role and serves as best they can. And from I can tell, there is little happiness. 

If we are given an option to join the Qun, I may just play that option simply to see what it's like in a society under the Qun.

Not everyone expresses happiness the same way. Just because Qunaris aren't putting their arms in the air singing and frolicking all the time doesn't mean they aren't happy.

You and I won't be happy in a society like that, but having lived in China I know many ppl who will. Had they moved to a free society like Hong Kong where I now live, they wouldn't know what to do without a totalian society givng them a purpose. I suspect, many, probably most Qunaris, save Tal-Vashoths, have a similar mentality.

[Skilled Seeker]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, with Qunari you don't have to worry about hidden agendas or complicated motives. You get what you see.

Not true at all. The Arishok didn't tell you he was searching for the relic. The Qunari are masters of omission.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 28 mai 2011 - 11:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's true. The Qunari have the Qun place EVERYONE in a role, and Sten says they are examined and placed in a role that suits their capabilities and attributes. But once in that role, that's all you do.

Under the Qun, there is no seeking happiness in a new career, there is no wanting something else. If you are a farmer, you are forever a farmer. If you are a merchant, you are forever a merchant. If you are a soldier, you are forever a soldier. If you are a farmer wanting to be a merchant, the Qun will not let you be one.

There is no freedom in that system. Everyone has a place, everyone knows their role and serves as best they can. And from I can tell, there is little happiness.

If we are given an option to join the Qun, I may just play that option simply to see what it's like in a society under the Qun.

Or perhaps Qunari finds happiness in the companionship of their friends instead of their choices. Perhaps they find happiness in the knowledge that they fulfill their purpose.

Since when did freedom equate happiness?

[Xilizhra]

Freedom doesn't always mean happiness, but the total destruction of freedom does cut off many opportunities for it.
The existence of Tal-Vashoth proves its imperfection. And the TV are just the ones who found the strength of will to actually leave their roles, something probably quite difficult in such a society; there are likely to be far more discontented in it than is immediately obvious.

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Freedom doesn't always mean happiness, but the total destruction of freedom does cut off many opportunities for it.
The existence of Tal-Vashoth proves its imperfection. And the TV are just the ones who found the strength of will to actually leave their roles, something probably quite difficult in such a society; there are likely to be far more discontented in it than is immediately obvious.

And this is where the grand thought by the Qun and the Arishok falls to pieces, they portray themselves as the beacon of order and certainty amongst chaos.  In reality they have just as many 'bad boys' as anyone else (Tal vashoth and the bounty hunters) and just rationalize it by saying oh, they are no longer part of the Qun.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Freedom doesn't always mean happiness, but the total destruction of freedom does cut off many opportunities for it.
The existence of Tal-Vashoth proves its imperfection. And the TV are just the ones who found the strength of will to actually leave their roles, something probably quite difficult in such a society; there are likely to be far more discontented in it than is immediately obvious.

It removes some forms of freedom, just like total freedom removes the chance of some forms of happiness. I doubt there is much more discontent in the QUnari society than is apparent. They are brought up to believe that the Qunari is a body, and that each individual is only a small part of it, and that they each have a responsibility from birth to do their best for the betterment of the body. The Tal-Vasoth are despised because they care nothing for the whole, and are only ruled by their own selfish needs. Selfishness is not cultivated in the Qunari society the same way it is in ours.

[Xilizhra]

The Tal-Vashoth aren't all entirely selfish, though; they seem to have some kind of camaraderie with each other, at least. And social conditioning is never foolproof.

In any case, I don't think the Arishok's crew was that large, and a quite decent portion of it went Tal-Vashoth.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Compared to the Qunari school of thought, the Tal-Vasoth are near the epitome of selfishness.

The Arishok's crew were numbered in the hundreds, and we don't know how many of the Tal-Vasoth we encounter were recent, or were there even before the Arishok's arrival.

[Xilizhra]

It'd be odd to see so many Tal-Vashoth outside Kirkwall, which isn't exactly close to Par Vollen or Seheron, purely by coincidence. But it's possible, yes.

However, I believe that the qunari school of thought is too one-sided. Individuals owe service to society, but society also owes service to individuals.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Qunari society gives its service to its people in the form of purpose, and security, both social and legally. It could be debated that the Qunari offers more services to its people than ours, but you have to restrict yourself to get those services.

[Xilizhra]

There's no ways for individuals to engage society on their own terms, basically. It's a weakness.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You percieve it as a weakness, perhaps. Others might see it as a strength. Which is the basic idea of ideology.

[Smilietime]

He's a badass, who seems like he want's to kill everything he sees. He's a kindred spirit! lol

[Gabey5]

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