638 réponses à ce sujet

[Droma]

that's some "gays are sick humans" logic you have there. the qunari and there beliefs are a disease in your eyes? wow that's some ignorance (even if it's just for a fictional race)

[Rifneno]

Droma wrote...

that's some "gays are sick humans" logic you have there. the qunari and there beliefs are a disease in your eyes? wow that's some ignorance (even if it's just for a fictional race)

Speaking of ignorance, "qunari" refers to one following the Qun, a quasi-religion that only allows for peaceful co-existence with other societies if they can't currently be conquered and converted by mass murder and terrorism. What you seem to be thinking of is the kossith, a horned race that comprises most of the qunari. Some ignorance indeed.

[Droma]

nope i meant qunari, i'm aware of the difference between kossith and qunari (but i shouldn't have used the word race for qunari, that is correct). you see too much the terrorists in them. i could argue the same way that humans are allways fighting and thinking they are the superiour race. but that's as wrong as it is for the qunari. hope we will get a kossith companion in further dlcs which will give is some more intel in the kossith/qunari. sten wasn't also a total monster who tried to kill everyone. but he wasn't a "good" one either. that's what i meant with grey. they have there beliefs and the may be extreme in some ways but they are also understandable in some too.

[dragonflight288]

Droma

nope i meant qunari, i'm aware of the difference between kossith and qunari (but i shouldn't have used the word race for qunari, that is correct). you see too much the terrorists in them. i could argue the same way that humans are allways fighting and thinking they are the superiour race. but that's as wrong as it is for the qunari. hope we will get a kossith companion in further dlcs which will give is some more intel in the kossith/qunari. sten wasn't also a total monster who tried to kill everyone. but he wasn't a "good" one either. that's what i meant with grey. they have there beliefs and the may be extreme in some ways but they are also understandable in some too.

I agree 100%. Sten was a formidable warrior, and his belief system was kind of one way street, but he was not unreasonable. He could even call the warden "Kadan", and would greatly respect him or her. I wouldn't call Sten 'evil' or even 'misguided'. He was a soldier from another culture with its own belief systems in a medieval world where sexism and racism was not only rampant, but expected of almost every culture, not just the Qunari.

[Beerfish]

Sten was 100% evil or insane take your pick. He loses his sword so he goes on a killing spree of an innocent farm family including women and children whom had saved him. Yet another reason to think the Qun is ridiculous, holding a possession (a sword) above all else. I guess when the Qunari bakers lose their favorite mixing bowl they go on a rampage and kill people to find it.

The big problem with the Qun is they have a very narrow view of the world, it fits for them but they refuse to acknowledge there is any other way of going about things, much to their constant failure.

Mages? Epic fail they got butt slapped in their invasion due to their handling of mages vs the opposing force.

Ways of finding a lost relic? The Arishok refused to play the game of the local town and use spies, bribes or thief like behavior in a town that was all about that kind of thing. They want to talk about end goals and put great value on things like their book and swords and yet they can only see one way of going about things and worse yet they believe, even to their deaths that their way is correct even though they are proven wrong time and again.

Modifié par Beerfish, 31 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[Soul Cool]

Rifneno wrote...
That was well addressed if you read earlier in the thread. It was an elaborate mass suicide on the part of the qunari, plain and simple. They had zero, absolutely no hope whatsoever of holding control of the city. They were doing "quite well" because they still have the element of surprise, a huge advantage in combat. Once the city guard, templars, and mages rallied and organized a coordinated counteroffensive, the greatly outnumbered qunari would stand little chance. Then even if they did win, they would have to hold the city against the rest of the outraged Free Marches with the few survivors while they reduce their numbers even more by sending word to Par Vollen of what has occurred. Then what? The qunari come in force from Par Vollen, leaving their homeland open to invasion by the Tevinters they were already warring with so they can wind up repeating the history of the Chantry's exalted marches, with help of the mages, beating them back to Par Vollen? The island that, oh by the way, is most likely under control of Tevinter now?

Doing quite well indeed.

Hm. Considering it took the entire known world combined, with the forces of a pervasive, widespread religion motivating the people to come together, to push the Qunari back, I would say that it would probably end badly for the Free Marches unless the Divine immediately decides to call for an Exalted March on them. And let's not forget their crushing technological superiority they have, though magic could somewhat offset this if the Chantry can get over begging the mages to save their worthless asses. Which, due to recent events, some mages may not be so happy doing. Since we're being so free with the armchair generalship, I'd go so far as to say that the Qunari would probably win because mages are very soft targets.

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I agree 100%. Sten was a formidable warrior, and his belief system was kind of one way street, but he was not unreasonable. He could even call the warden "Kadan", and would greatly respect him or her. I wouldn't call Sten 'evil' or even 'misguided'. He was a soldier from another culture with its own belief systems in a medieval world where sexism and racism was not only rampant, but expected of almost every culture, not just the Qunari.

He also said that it was "unthinkable" for a foreigner to be called kadan. Much more importantly, he confirmed that the qunari ARE planning to invade Thedas again. The Arishok also alluded to this with his "We shall return" line. Just for giggles, let's read some from the wiki shall we?

It was a dark time for Thedas, with the nations of mankind being forced to once again unite against a common enemy… this one intending not to destroy, as the darkspawn did, but rather to conquer a land they saw as in dire need of enlightenment. The Qunari proved themselves to be the most frightening sort of opponent of all: religious zealots.

That's pretty key right there. They think the rest of the world is "in dire need of enlightenment." And it seems pretty clear that hundreds of years later, they still hold this belief. Want to talk about what happens with societies first meet, how about we talk about how they mend fences over time? Less time ago than the Qunari invaded Thedas, America violently rebelled against England and declared its independence. The king even swore basically eternal vengeance and all that fun stuff. Now the two countries are BFF's. Actually, nevermind that one. Japan. I better not need to elaborate on that. 66 years ago we ended 200,000 (approx) lives with two swings of the deadliest sword man has ever seen. Only 66 years later, where are we? Both countries consider the other to be one of their strongest allies. 300 years later, the qunari still want to convert with needless war and terrorism.

“Stories of how the Qunari treated the lands they occupied, ‘kabethari’ being the term for those lands in their language and supposedly meaning ‘those who need to be taught’, are varied and difficult to verify. Some claim that the Qunari were guilty of terrorizing the populace. They divided children from their families and sent adults to ‘learning camps’ for indoctrination in their religious philosophies. Those who refused to obey were forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps to labor… often until they perished of sheer exhaustion or starvation. Those who resisted were slain, instantly and without mercy. Many who obeyed their new masters, however, claim that they were treated well and even given a large amount of trust provided they followed the strict Qunari codes of conduct and laws.

For every tale of suffering recorded, there was another that tells of enlightenment from something called the ‘qun’. This is either a philosophical code or a written text, perhaps both, and some claim it may even be akin to the Qunari god. Unlike the Chant of Light it governs all aspects of Qunari life, both secular and spiritual, and the Qunari are devoted to following its tenets strictly and without question.

It seems unlikely the stories are exaggerated, because we have absolute confirmation of many aspects of it. They will steal children, as Sten tells us that in qunari culture it is the priesthood that owns a child. And yes, I say "own" on purpose. Since a qunari either must do as he's told his entire life or be labeled Tal-Vashoth and slain on sight, it sure sounds like slavery to me. But I digress. Fenris mentions that slavery in the mines bit in dialogue to Isabela. He also adds the charming detail that the qunari drug their unconverted slaves into obedient servants. Finally, Mark Kirby mentioned the "re-education camps" in a post explaining qunari culture.

It may look like this is a two way street, as the codex also says there's a good tale for every bad one. But look closer: the stories he hears about them not being so bad are all from willing converts. So if you want to keep your family, your basic rights, even your frickin' name, it's the mines for you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
That's pretty key right there. They think the rest of the world is "in dire need of enlightenment." And it seems pretty clear that hundreds of years later, they still hold this belief. Want to talk about what happens with societies first meet, how about we talk about how they mend fences over time? Less time ago than the Qunari invaded Thedas, America violently rebelled against England and declared its independence. The king even swore basically eternal vengeance and all that fun stuff. Now the two countries are BFF's. Actually, nevermind that one. Japan. I better not need to elaborate on that. 66 years ago we ended 200,000 (approx) lives with two swings of the deadliest sword man has ever seen. Only 66 years later, where are we? Both countries consider the other to be one of their strongest allies. 300 years later, the qunari still want to convert with needless war and terrorism.
.

Both are bad examples as you are ignoring the political context.

The American and Japanese alliance for instance, was in the context of Cold War, and was key to the Containment policy.  In other words, they had a common enemy (Japan and Russia had been enemies since the 19th century for obvious geo-political and strategic reasons).

The Qunari and the rest of Thedas do not have a common enemy yet for them to improve relations. Humans need to be pressured to seek allies, they don't do it to be nice. I suspect the Qunari need to be pressured even more, for they undeniably look down on the others (that is not to say that human polities don't look down on each other as well).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Mages? Epic fail they got butt slapped in their invasion due to their handling of mages vs the opposing force.

I wonder if the Kirkwall mages were even properly trained, given how awful they handle themselves in the fight with the templars in Act III and how they ignore the funnel, don't burn down the approaching ships with templars, and don't attack from a distance. Then again, maybe Kirkwall simply gives everyone a lobotomy, which would explain Cullen's reaction to Hawke revealing what Anders is going to do to the Chantry...

[EmperorSahlertz]

A funny fact some of you probably don't realize: There is only one of the major religions of our world, which does not require by "holy doctrine" that you try and convert an unbeliever. It somehow doesn't seem highly unlikely that the Qunari have the same philosophical approach.

[AtreiyaN7]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do. He brutally murders the Viscount, despite the Viscount appeasing him ever since he landed in Kirkwall. Then there's the fact that he declares war at all and decides to take over the city where he is a guest just because he hasn't managed to find an unrelated book and he doesn't like the society. There is no logic at all behind such a move, he had no chance of taking over and this would be viewed as a declaration of war, meaning Thedas would go to war with the Qunari again. He didn't consult with the other 2 leaders of his people over this decision and just got blinded by rage and took matters into his own hands, ultimately leading to his humiliating death or withdrawal and no good accomplished whatsoever, though a serious blow to Qunari reputation and morale.

So why do people respect him?

Maybe you forget that Sister Petrice instigated the murder of the qunari envoys? I mean, hello, she was trying to instrigate trouble all along and paint the qunari as monsters. If anything, the responsibility for the mess that happened is partially (or largely) hers. The Arishok was clear intelligent and was honorable in his own way. Samurai operating under the code of bushido didn't always do the "logical" thing. Sometimes honor dictated ritual suicide. Is it logical? No, but it's "correct" in terms of their code.

[dragonflight288]

Sten was 100% evil or insane take your pick. He loses his sword so he goes on a killing spree of an innocent farm family including women and children whom had saved him. Yet another reason to think the Qun is ridiculous, holding a possession (a sword) above all else. I guess when the Qunari bakers lose their favorite mixing bowl they go on a rampage and kill people to find it.

Sten acknowledges his dishonor there and openly admits to killing the family. Granted I also think placing such importance on a blade to be ridiculous, but I can see a feudal Japanese samurai doing the same thing because the Katana was considered the soul of the warrior wielding it.

And your example of a baker killing people over losing a favored mixing bowl is ridiculous if you acknowledge what the Qun says. He's a baker, that's his role. He can't fight and therefore can't kill. lol.

He also said that it was "unthinkable" for a foreigner to be called kadan. Much more importantly, he confirmed that the qunari ARE planning to invade Thedas again. The Arishok also alluded to this with his "We shall return" line. Just for giggles, let's read some from the wiki shall we?

It was a dark time for Thedas, with the nations of mankind being forced to once again unite against a common enemy… this one intending not to destroy, as the darkspawn did, but rather to conquer a land they saw as in dire need of enlightenment. The Qunari proved themselves to be the most frightening sort of opponent of all: religious zealots.

That's pretty key right there. They think the rest of the world is "in dire need of enlightenment." And it seems pretty clear that hundreds of years later, they still hold this belief. Want to talk about what happens with societies first meet, how about we talk about how they mend fences over time? Less time ago than the Qunari invaded Thedas, America violently rebelled against England and declared its independence. The king even swore basically eternal vengeance and all that fun stuff. Now the two countries are BFF's. Actually, nevermind that one. Japan. I better not need to elaborate on that. 66 years ago we ended 200,000 (approx) lives with two swings of the deadliest sword man has ever seen. Only 66 years later, where are we? Both countries consider the other to be one of their strongest allies. 300 years later, the qunari still want to convert with needless war and terrorism.

“Stories of how the Qunari treated the lands they occupied, ‘kabethari’ being the term for those lands in their language and supposedly meaning ‘those who need to be taught’, are varied and difficult to verify. Some claim that the Qunari were guilty of terrorizing the populace. They divided children from their families and sent adults to ‘learning camps’ for indoctrination in their religious philosophies. Those who refused to obey were forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps to labor… often until they perished of sheer exhaustion or starvation. Those who resisted were slain, instantly and without mercy. Many who obeyed their new masters, however, claim that they were treated well and even given a large amount of trust provided they followed the strict Qunari codes of conduct and laws.

For every tale of suffering recorded, there was another that tells of enlightenment from something called the ‘qun’. This is either a philosophical code or a written text, perhaps both, and some claim it may even be akin to the Qunari god. Unlike the Chant of Light it governs all aspects of Qunari life, both secular and spiritual, and the Qunari are devoted to following its tenets strictly and without question.

It seems unlikely the stories are exaggerated, because we have absolute confirmation of many aspects of it. They will steal children, as Sten tells us that in qunari culture it is the priesthood that owns a child. And yes, I say "own" on purpose. Since a qunari either must do as he's told his entire life or be labeled Tal-Vashoth and slain on sight, it sure sounds like slavery to me. But I digress. Fenris mentions that slavery in the mines bit in dialogue to Isabela. He also adds the charming detail that the qunari drug their unconverted slaves into obedient servants. Finally, Mark Kirby mentioned the "re-education camps" in a post explaining qunari culture.

It may look like this is a two way street, as the codex also says there's a good tale for every bad one. But look closer: the stories he hears about them not being so bad are all from willing converts. So if you want to keep your family, your basic rights, even your frickin' name, it's the mines for you.

Yes, he does say it's unthinkable, but he does anyway. And I don't underestimate the threat of the Qunari invading again. I don't doubt that.

But if you wish to blame and be prejudiced against the Qunari, you must be equally prejudiced against the Chantry. The whole "When the chant is heard in all corners of the world, will the Maker finally give us his forgiveness." line. They're pretty much stating that their way is the only way as well.

And Sister Petrice, a member of the 'honorable' chantry is neck deep in politics, blackmail, assassinations, and hate mongering, all in the name of the Chantry and 'Eternity'. She instigates the murder of the peaceful delegates sent by the Arishok to the Viscount. Everything was going well between Kirkwall and the Arishok until she started her anti-Qunari campaign.

Not to mention the Exalted Marches of the Chantry. In Orzammar in Origins, if you establish a Circle of Magi in Orzammar (by helping that dwarven girl study magic, and ignoring that dwarven chantry priest), they are planning an exalted march on Orzammar for sheltering mages from the Chantry.

The whole exalted march against the Dales is a story full of holes by both sides. They may have started with missionaries, but it turned into a brute force conversion. If you believe the Dalish stories.

My point is, the Chantry is just as guilty as the Qunari are in their whole everyone else is wrong, we are right, sort of deal.

Ways of finding a lost relic? The Arishok refused to play the game of the local town and use spies, bribes or thief like behavior in a town that was all about that kind of thing. They want to talk about end goals and put great value on things like their book and swords and yet they can only see one way of going about things and worse yet they believe, even to their deaths that their way is correct even though they are proven wrong time and again.

So the Arishok was treating the whole situation with honor and dignity, refusing to do dirty deeds is enough to condemn him?

[Rifneno]

Beerfish wrote...

Sten was 100% evil or insane take your pick. He loses his sword so he goes on a killing spree of an innocent farm family including women and children whom had saved him. Yet another reason to think the Qun is ridiculous, holding a possession (a sword) above all else. I guess when the Qunari bakers lose their favorite mixing bowl they go on a rampage and kill people to find it.

You jest, but yes, a dev once posted in response to a question that each qunari is given a tool of their trade that is equivalent to Sten and his sword. So killing spree or no, a baker losing his sacred mixing bowl is the same deal.

Qunari are all about logic though, right guys? LOL.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Qunari and the rest of Thedas do not have a common enemy yet for them to improve relations. Humans need to be pressured to seek allies, they don't do it to be nice. I suspect the Qunari need to be pressured even more, for they undeniably look down on the others (that is not to say that human polities don't look down on each other as well). 

Okay.  So if Andrastian countries and Par Vollen had a common enemy, let's say...  how about a nation full of manical blood mages?  Let's call them... I don't know... how about "Tevinter?"  If such a thing existed, they'd have a powerful common enemy and the analogy would be apt.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A funny fact some of you probably don't realize: There is only one of the major religions of our world, which does not require by "holy doctrine" that you try and convert an unbeliever. It somehow doesn't seem highly unlikely that the Qunari have the same philosophical approach.

And a fun fact you don't realize: They don't require conversion by means of war and terrorism. In fact most preach a great deal of peace. The qun not only demands conversion by way of rivers of blood, it is neigh immune to progressive change because any form of change from the all-encompassing demands of the qun means you're Tal-Vashoth, i.e. target practice.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Maybe you forget that Sister Petrice instigated the murder of the qunari envoys?

Right. Because A killed B, after you kill A you're allowed to kill the rest of the alphabet. That makes lots of sense.

I mean, hello, she was trying to instrigate trouble all along and paint the qunari as monsters.

She was right. They are monsters.

dragonflight288 wrote...

But if you wish to blame and be prejudiced against the Qunari, you must be equally prejudiced against the Chantry.

I take it you haven't read my posts in the mage debates? My dream DA3 involves invoking a right of annulment on every templar Hawke encounters on the way to executing the Divine. So yeah, not a big fan of the Chantry.

Everything was going well between Kirkwall and the Arishok until she started her anti-Qunari campaign.

No it wasn't. The Arishok was full of ****** and vinegar long before that. When you first tell him about Petrice's bull, he says (paraphrasing) that it doesn't make a difference to him because the city is full of enemies. He was also full of hate and lies with the Viscount, who was basically kissing his ass.

But about the peaceful delegates that Petrice and Varnell kill? Let's not forget one very, very important fact. You can go tell the Arishok that the delegates are missing. He responds (again, paraphrasing as I don't recall exact wording) "if anyone else were to bring me that message, it would be their last words." The Arishok is totally okay with killing the Viscount's peaceful delegates. Except Petrice is a criminal acting against her society's laws and her leaders' (both the Viscount and Grand Cleric Elthina) wishes. The Arishok, on the other hand, ia not only not a criminal in the eyes of his society, he's one of the leaders himself. In fact he's a far higher authority to his culture than the Viscount is to Thedas/Andrastian states/humans/what have you.

My point is, the Chantry is just as guilty as the Qunari are in their whole everyone else is wrong, we are right, sort of deal.

Let me say first off, I despise the Chantry. At least as much as a healthy mind can despise a fictional organization. That said, the difference between the two is that the Chantry is merely resistant to change whereas the qunari are simply immune to it. The metaphor I like to use is to say that the Chantry's sword arm needs to be amputated. They abuse their power, but there are many good people doing good things very peacefully in the Chantry. There's no reason to wipe out their very religion. What is good should remain if at all possible.

With the qunari, however, they are of one mind. The Arishok talks of "the certainty of the Qun" and it's an important point. The qunari all fanatically believe in their teachings, there is no dissent or peaceful disagreement about their teachings amongst themselves. Leliana, the right hand of the Divine herself, openly disagrees with some of the Chantry's teachings (the most obvious example being that she doesn't believe the Maker has abandoned mankind as the Chantry teaches, a belief also apparently shared by Grand Cleric Elthina). The qunari, however, are absolutely certain that their way is the only way. There cannot be a permanent peaceful co-existence.

So the Arishok was treating the whole situation with honor and dignity, refusing to do dirty deeds is enough to condemn him?

Considering his "honorable way" was the medieval equivalent of a suicide bombing and not even against the parties that wronged him, hell yes I will condemn him for not taking the "dirty" route of trying to find his damnable book with skulduggery.

[dragonflight288]

Rifeneno, I congratulate you for rebutting my arguments in such a logical fashion. Hats off to you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Qunari and the rest of Thedas do not have a common enemy yet for them to improve relations. Humans need to be pressured to seek allies, they don't do it to be nice. I suspect the Qunari need to be pressured even more, for they undeniably look down on the others (that is not to say that human polities don't look down on each other as well). 

Okay.  So if Andrastian countries and Par Vollen had a common enemy, let's say...  how about a nation full of manical blood mages?  Let's call them... I don't know... how about "Tevinter?"  If such a thing existed, they'd have a powerful common enemy and the analogy would be apt.

Except Andrastrians would rather have Tevinter than the Qunari and indeed, they did ally with them against the invaders. Furthermore, after the Qunari invasions, Tevinter is no longer an enemy of Andrastian states (at least not a direct one), the Exalted marches against it happened before.

So no, bad analogy. Tevinter is not strong enough to be a common enemy. If what Fenris says  is true, the Qunari don't even need allies to begin with to deal with Tevinter.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2011 - 01:45 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

We can respect our enemies. The Qunari may be the bane of every freedom loving Fereldan but it can't be said they do not have honor. Do they pose an existential threat to Fereldan? Yes. Are they mass killers? Yes. But so are Adrastians and the Tivinters.

As to the nature of the Qunari grudge and how long it has lasted when compared to something like the grudges we carry in the modern world... you have to remember the biggest reason we, as a modern society, are able to empathize with one another so easily are inventions like the telegraph and the internet and airplanes... technology keeps us closer to each other. Its is harder to villainze each other in the information age. I mean, it still happens. The Middle east has had a grudge with us since the formation of Israel (or even since the crusades a thousand years ago)...

Anyway. In the middle ages it was common to have Hundred Years Wars and grudges that lasted many times that length. Remember France and England?

In short. I don't think Rifeno's analogy of WWII in relation to the Qunari and the rest of Thedas is a fair analogy. Also. I'm a little drunk. Pardon the spelling.

[dragonflight288]

Good insights.

[Wulfram]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

We can respect our enemies. The Qunari may be the bane of every freedom loving Fereldan but it can't be said they do not have honor.

Yes it can.  The Qunari don't have honour.  If the Arishok acted as the Qun demands, then the Qun demands deceit, treachery and murder.

[dragonflight288]

So the people of Kirkwall have even less honor than the Qunari in your opinion?

[Herr Uhl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So the people of Kirkwall have even less honor than the Qunari in your opinion?

I thought that was one of the major plotpoints of the game.

The Qunari at least have the honor of adhering to a code, whatever you may think about said code.

[Beerfish]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do. He brutally murders the Viscount, despite the Viscount appeasing him ever since he landed in Kirkwall. Then there's the fact that he declares war at all and decides to take over the city where he is a guest just because he hasn't managed to find an unrelated book and he doesn't like the society. There is no logic at all behind such a move, he had no chance of taking over and this would be viewed as a declaration of war, meaning Thedas would go to war with the Qunari again. He didn't consult with the other 2 leaders of his people over this decision and just got blinded by rage and took matters into his own hands, ultimately leading to his humiliating death or withdrawal and no good accomplished whatsoever, though a serious blow to Qunari reputation and morale.

So why do people respect him?

Maybe you forget that Sister Petrice instigated the murder of the qunari envoys? I mean, hello, she was trying to instrigate trouble all along and paint the qunari as monsters. If anything, the responsibility for the mess that happened is partially (or largely) hers. The Arishok was clear intelligent and was honorable in his own way. Samurai operating under the code of bushido didn't always do the "logical" thing. Sometimes honor dictated ritual suicide. Is it logical? No, but it's "correct" in terms of their code.

And that is the thing, their code is no code at all because they change it on a whim at any time and any place to suit themselves then try and convince people they are part of some kind of disciplined code.   The code of the Qun essentially is "We are right no matter what we do and no one should question us."

And Petrice was right, as clumbsy as her attempts were she was 100% correct in her though that the Arishok and Qun were sooner or later going to try and force their values on all. 

Modifié par Beerfish, 01 juin 2011 - 02:06 .

[Droma]

so it is honor to don't act as a leader when your people got murdered, torchered and accused of poisening a whole city?

and yes of cause, if i call someone a bully, then provoke him until he beats the crap out of me, than that means i was right in the first place calling him a bully! weird logic here

Modifié par Droma, 01 juin 2011 - 02:10 .

[Shadow Raziel]

Herr Uhl wrote...
The Qunari at least have the honor of adhering to a code, whatever you may think about said code.

But so do the Templars... I get what you are saying and for the most part I agree with you.  From my perspective you have three sects with entirely different mores. sects that have been around for a long time,  with deeply entrenched beliefs. it's kind of arrogant for people to believe they could bring resolution to the overall conflict in Kirkwall. changing someones mind or heart concerning a subject is very difficult.  Only time and education does that.

i personally liked the Arishok as a charactor, I respected his direct demeanor, and enjoyed his condesending attitude. lol. All joking aside he was an interesting charactor.

[Beerfish]

I can see people liking him for his haughty demeanor and trying to act like he knows what is going on. But in reality he was very inconsistent and very incompetent. I think The Qun like a lot of the business world is not about what you know but about acting like you know more than anyone else even if you know jack.

How do you become Arishok anyway? At the age of 3 are you deemed to be Arishok?

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Wulfram wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

We can respect our enemies. The Qunari may be the bane of every freedom loving Fereldan but it can't be said they do not have honor.

Yes it can.  The Qunari don't have honour.  If the Arishok acted as the Qun demands, then the Qun demands deceit, treachery and murder.

Treachery?  Where is the treachery?  Deceit?  The Qunari are, by their nature terrible liars.  I saw no deceit by Qunari in either dragon age game.  Both Sten and the Arishok say exactly what they are going to do before they do it.  Both straight up tell yuou their inadiquacies and failures.  Sten tells you to your face that he murdered that family and had no decent reason for it.  The Arishok tells you why he is in Kirkwall and tells you exactly what he is going to do to it.  When the Qunari finally attack nobody is suprised.

And both Sten and the Arishok are very open about the fact that Thedas is going to get its due.  Both talk openly about how little stock they take in the Llomeryn Accords.  There is very little deciet about what is expected of the Qunari.  They are here to kick ass and convert and that is what they are going to do.

Murder?  Oh, yeah, the Qunari do that a lot.  They seem to be pretty keen on murder.  But so is Hawke.  And the Warden for that matter.  There isn't a problem in Thedas that can't be solved with a murder knife.