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[Wulfram]

Deceit: Oh, we're waiting for a boat to pick us up.
Treachery: Sneak attack on Kirkwall, and the assault on the envoy of Hawke and Aveline.

And my Warden never committed murder. Except perhaps Caladrius, and not a jury on Thedas would convict her for that.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Wulfram wrote...

Deceit: Oh, we're waiting for a boat to pick us up.
Treachery: Sneak attack on Kirkwall, and the assault on the envoy of Hawke and Aveline.

And my Warden never committed murder. Except perhaps Caladrius, and not a jury on Thedas would convict her for that.

Well, if you intend to take over a city a sneak attack seems like a pretty good way to go about it, huh?

So, I guess there is some treachery and deceit there.  Its just really poorly done.  The Qunari are pretty bad at lying.

The Qunari didn't intend to take over Krikwall going out so the, 'waiting for a boat' excuse is really not that decietful at first.  They were there to find the Tome of Koslun and then get the heck out of Kirkwall.  It really wasn't anybody's buisiness why they were there so the 'waiting for a boat' thing was was the lamest excuse they could come up with.  And as time goes on most people with any sense see straight through that.

It is only by Act 2 that the Qunari decide they should take over Kirkwall.  And, considering you have the Arishok there, the person that is responsible for leading the army that is suposed to conqur all of Thedas, it makes sense that he would try to get the Tome by military force.

It is his job.  That is what he does, lead military strikes.  So that is what happens.

The assult on Hawke was just good military sense.  Hawke was the biggest threat to the Arishok.  So, yes why the Qunari are deceitful, it is hardly the defining trait of the belief system.  It just turned out to be what happened in the specific case in DA2 imo.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Also, I find it hard to believe your warden never committed 'murder.' Though my definition of murder is pretty broad.

If military assassinations and acts of self defense are exempt from being called 'murder' then I don't think the Qunari can be said to have murdered anyone in DA2. Sister Patrice was assassinated. Whether that was murder is debatable, but assassinations are pretty much state sponsored murder... but everything after that, the assault on Hawke and the attack on the city... that was military straight up. It was war.

In that case the Warden sure did 'murder' a lot of bandits and guardsman and darkspawn.

[dragonflight288]

Hawke can also kill Templars like Kerras in Act 1, the Dalish, and nobody raises a finger over it because the lack of evidence and witnesses. That is also why the Viscount couldn't stop Petrice, because she was careful not to implicate herself in anything.

If the Arishok hadn't sent someone to kill her, she would've continued arranging deaths for the Qunari and trying to frame Hawke for the murder of the viscount's son.

What would you do if you were to go with several people in your neighborhood out to another country, or your religion, or your whatever ethnic group you may be a part of, and you find someone who absolutely despises you for what you are. Then that person consistently and systematically attacks and murders your fellows and constantly seeks to incite hate against you. The Arishok just bore it for three years. Three YEARS. How many of us would be that patient?

[Kasces]

Wulfram wrote...

Deceit: Oh, we're waiting for a boat to pick us up.
Treachery: Sneak attack on Kirkwall, and the assault on the envoy of Hawke and Aveline.

And my Warden never committed murder. Except perhaps Caladrius, and not a jury on Thedas would convict her for that.

That's not deceit, as thy were waiting for a boat. They just needed to accomplish a goal first before they could rightfully call and get on said boat.

That's not treachery. Who asked if they had a plan to attack Kirkwall if necessary?  The actual question has to be raised, and no one was suprised when they actually did attack.

If that's deceit and treachery, the Qunari are terrible at it.

Modifié par Kasces, 01 juin 2011 - 10:49 .

[Kasces]

The one thing I don't get in this thread is why people are saying the Qunari attack was mass suicide. The city, at least according to its leader, didn't have the sheer manpower to simply kick the Qunari out for 3 or 4 years, yet you're telling me after the Qunari successfully take all the nobles, kill the leader of the city, and gain a very secure spot, Hightown, which may be the most strategic as well, that Meredith and Aveline were suddenly going to gain a force that would easily dispatch the Qunari to the point the Qunari attacking at all was suicide?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Beerfish]

Kasces wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Deceit: Oh, we're waiting for a boat to pick us up.
Treachery: Sneak attack on Kirkwall, and the assault on the envoy of Hawke and Aveline.

And my Warden never committed murder. Except perhaps Caladrius, and not a jury on Thedas would convict her for that.

That's not deceit, as thy were waiting for a boat. They just needed to accomplish a goal first before they could rightfully call and get on said boat.

That's not treachery. Who asked if they had a plan to attack Kirkwall if necessary?  The actual question has to be raised, and no one was suprised when they actually did attack.

Murder is murder.

You sound just like the Arishok and Sten in DAO for that matter.  They are so full of misleading baloney, it is hilarious and then they try and hide behind the letter or the law, never the intent.

They sign the Llomeryn accord and then say it means nothing to them.  (Why did you sign it then?)

Knowingly leaving poison gas for people to steal, then being 100% wrong in who steals it. 

Complianing bitterly about their book a holy relic and then sending an assassin into the chantry to take the law into their own hands.

The worst part of the whole thing probably is what he did to the viscount,   A guy who bent backwards to accomodate the Quanri and in all likelyhood would have helped them by any means to get their book back if it mean they would leave.

The bone head sends 4 elite fighters to test hawke before the last battle then deems him worthy.  Meanwhile mr valiant Arishok beheads an old man.

[Beerfish]

Kasces wrote...

The one thing I don't get in this thread is why people are saying the Qunari attack was mass suicide. The city, at least according to its leader, didn't have the sheer manpower to simply kick the Qunari out for 3 or 4 years, yet you're telling me after the Qunari successfully take all the nobles, kill the leader of the city, and gain a very secure spot, Hightown, which may be the most strategic as well, that Meredith and Aveline were suddenly going to gain a force that would easily dispatch the Qunari to the point the Qunari attacking at all was suicide?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Well unlike the Qunari who talk a good game the viscount actually wanted to avoid blood shed.  He had hoped to have them leave on their own and they might have if the bone heads had told anyone why they were there.  The city could have kicked the crap out of the Qunari way before if they so desired but casualties would be high and they would have made big enemies.  Instead despite the best efforts of the viscount it was the Qunari that attacked.

[Shadow Raziel]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Deceit: Oh, we're waiting for a boat to pick us up.
Treachery: Sneak attack on Kirkwall, and the assault on the envoy of Hawke and Aveline.

And my Warden never committed murder. Except perhaps Caladrius, and not a jury on Thedas would convict her for that.

Well, if you intend to take over a city a sneak attack seems like a pretty good way to go about it, huh?

"The way of war is a way of deception." Sun Tzu... XD

I believe his extended time in Kirkwall factored into his decision. any  good leader is going to make strategic plans if they are in a hostile envrionment. And let's face it the extremists in the chantry were doing their best to incite the Arishok. mutiply that times the fanatcism of the Qunari and the end result is a lot of collateral damage.

Modifié par Shadow Raziel, 02 juin 2011 - 12:05 .

[dragonflight288]

Sun Tzu was the greatest military mind of all history. I've read a small portion of The Art of War. The Arishok certainly follows a lot of his guidelines.

And the Viscount trying to avoid bloodshed? Well, he was, but he was mostly trying to avoid looking bad in front of the nobles and Meredith. He was so dang afraid of appearing politically weak in front of people that he actually was politically weak because he wouldn't do anything. Most of his decisions were based off of appeasing everyone, the chantry, the mages, the templars, and the qunari.

He wouldn't let his son talk to the Qunari, or even associate with them because he was afraid it would make him look weak. He wouldn't do anything that Meredith would disapprove of because she was the real power in Kirkwall, something a city guard admits when Hawke gets off the boat.

The viscount was so busy appeasing people that he wasn't actually taking any actions.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

And lost his head because of it.

[Skilled Seeker]

The Arishok is a rabid dog, and should be put down like one. I have more respect for Loghain than the Arishok.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 02 juin 2011 - 01:00 .

[Shadow Raziel]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

The Arishok is a rabid dog, and should be put down like one. I have more respect for Loghain than the Arishok.

lol... Loghain was a snake. he masked his want and need for power behind patriotism.IMHO He was a male  version of Cersai in  " A Game of Thrones" The Arishok was a religious fanatic. But to call him a rabid dog is off the mark. he did not act without patience. he was in Kirkwall how many years before the uprising? Either he was pushed into the conflict by zealots or maybe his Qun... Or possibly after all that time he intended to test the strength and resolve of the city.  whatever the case may be he exhibited "patience" something we usually do not associate with something rabid. XD.

[Dormiglione]

It is only by Act 2 that the Qunari decide they should take over Kirkwall.  And, considering you have the Arishok there, the person that is responsible for leading the army that is suposed to conqur all of Thedas, it makes sense that he would try to get the Tome by military force.

It is his job.  That is what he does, lead military strikes.  So that is what happens.

The assult on Hawke was just good military sense.  Hawke was the biggest threat to the Arishok.  So, yes why the Qunari are deceitful, it is hardly the defining trait of the belief system.  It just turned out to be what happened in the specific case in DA2 imo.

Also note what happened just before the Arishok finally decided to attack Kirkwall?

Hawke went to the Arishok and informed him that Isabella fled with the tome. The Qunari spent 4-6 years in Kirkwall. The Arishok said to Hawke that they couldnt go back to Par Vollen until they accomplished a given task (rescue the tome). Now Aveline in her best manner did the next affront to the Arishok. Why in hell asked she the Arishok to hand out the elves?

So what were the options of the Arishok?
- Stay much longer, maybe for all eternity, in Kirkwall because he thought that the tome was now lost forever?

He couldnt go back to Par Vollen. Thats the point. He knew that he couldnt go back to Par Vollen. The Qunari's under his commando wouldnt left him on his own. He couldnt command them to go back to Par Vollen and leave him on its own. Following the Qun, none of them would leave him alone.

So, what are his options? When he dies the other Qunari are free to go back to Par Vollen. Maybe he took not the best solution to guarantee his people to go back home.
I think, in the end he was tired of sitting in Kirkwall. So, he went on his "suicide" mission, taking revenge for all the years in Kirkwall and give his people the possibility to go home.

I respect the Arishok in DA2 more than any other character including Hawke.

[Skilled Seeker]

lolwut. Arishok got all his people killed, not just himself. That is an absolutely ridiculous defense of his actions. The only way they'll be going home is in a coffin.

To respect him more than any other character defies belief.

[themonty72]

A suicide mission i think not...He simply attack kirkwalll because he hated the evil that played there and was feed up with Kirkwall rules. He got tired of his people poke at, he explain this to hawk.If you poke at a dog sooner or later he will bite.He could have left to go back to Par Vollen after the Qun was return but not without the thief. it was a part of the Quanris belief. All of his eople didnt die after he was killed hawk looked at the some of quanris and they simply left.

Modifié par themonty72, 02 juin 2011 - 05:54 .

[Skilled Seeker]

What evil?! Please, his attack is the evil. A fringe group of fanatics caused some trouble so he turns on the entire city, slaughtering innocents who stand in his way and trying to forcefully convert everyone or kill them if they don't accept.

It was a retarded suicide mission because Arishok had neither the manpower or brains to take Kirkwall, let alone hold onto it in the 1 in a gazillion chance event that he succeeds.

[Wulfram]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Also, I find it hard to believe your warden never committed 'murder.' Though my definition of murder is pretty broad.

If military assassinations and acts of self defense are exempt from being called 'murder' then I don't think the Qunari can be said to have murdered anyone in DA2. Sister Patrice was assassinated. Whether that was murder is debatable, but assassinations are pretty much state sponsored murder... but everything after that, the assault on Hawke and the attack on the city... that was military straight up. It was war.

In that case the Warden sure did 'murder' a lot of bandits and guardsman and darkspawn.

Legitimate military actions are not murder.  The attack on a peaceful envoy is murder.

The killing of the random noble guy who complains after the Arishok beheads the Viscount is unquestionably murder.

[Speakeasy13]

Wulfram wrote...

Legitimate military actions are not murder.  The attack on a peaceful envoy is murder.

The killing of the random noble guy who complains after the Arishok beheads the Viscount is unquestionably murder.

Are you for real? What is legitimate to you? That's almost like saying if your country starts a war then it's okay to invade other countries killing people. Would you consider that legitimate too?

In that logic Arishok's is just as legitimate a military force as that of Kirkwall's. Just cuz he's on the opposite side doesn't make him wrong and you right.

[Dormiglione]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

lolwut. Arishok got all his people killed, not just himself. That is an absolutely ridiculous defense of his actions. The only way they'll be going home is in a coffin.

To respect him more than any other character defies belief.

So tell me what were the options of the Arishok? A qunari who lived his whole life following the Qun. Even if he managed to destroy complete Kirkwall and kill every one that was there. Could he then return to Par Vollen? No, he couldnt. Not without the tome. In his eyes the tome was lost.
So tell me what were his options at this time?

Just for the records if you didnt know.
- Hawke attacks all Qunari's and all of them die
- Duel between the Arishok and Hawke, the Arishok dies most of the Qunari's leave Kirkwall alive
- Hawke hands over Isabela, Arishok and all Qunari leave Kirkwall, Isabela escapes ..

[Wulfram]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Legitimate military actions are not murder.  The attack on a peaceful envoy is murder.

The killing of the random noble guy who complains after the Arishok beheads the Viscount is unquestionably murder.

Are you for real? What is legitimate to you? That's almost like saying if your country starts a war then it's okay to invade other countries killing people. Would you consider that legitimate too?

In that logic Arishok's is just as legitimate a military force as that of Kirkwall's. Just cuz he's on the opposite side doesn't make him wrong and you right.

I'm really not sure what your point is.

Killing enemy soldiers in battle is not murder, though the war being fought may be unjust.  Defending yourself or others from attack is not murder. 
Killing a peaceful envoy is murder.  Killing an unarmed prisoner is murder.

[Speakeasy13]

Wulfram wrote...
Killing enemy soldiers in battle is not murder, though the war being fought may be unjust.  Defending yourself or others from attack is not murder. 
Killing a peaceful envoy is murder.  Killing an unarmed prisoner is murder.

Basically the moment one joins the military s/he is fully aware that s/he will be commiting murder. If one honestly thinks s/he can join an army and kill only righteously enemy soldiers s/he is a royal fool.

Would you not have shot Bin Laden on sight? Was he a soldier? The same goes for that man. He was a nobility. A man of political influence. He was not innocent civilian.

[Wulfram]

So your point is what? That all nobles are evil terrorists and should die?

And if I somehow captured Bin Laden, I would not kill him. I would hand him over to the appropriate authorities for trial.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@Wulfram: Well I'm glad you are not calling the shots. This sounds like something Batman or Superman would say but is hardly the practical decision at all. Say what you want about the ethics of assassination, but it is certainly very practical. OBL's weapons were his money and his words. Giving him a trail just puts him in a situation where he can use his weapons against the US.

But that has nothing to do with the Arishok. I would like to say that I agree with Dormiglion. That is a valid reading of the Arishok's motivations. And I think I rather like it.

[themonty72]

The evil among humans, elves, dwarfs, mages and templars that evil in Kirkwall. No such thing as a suicide mission. You need to play the game again. The dud did have brains then everybody in  kirkwall they were  like evil pest to him keep picking and picking this went on for years. He nailed the truth when he explain to Hawk the filth in the city. No one in Kirkwall was worth a friend or rival to him unless your name was Hawk. He saw Hawk wasnt effected by the bull@@@@in Kirkwall as everyone else thats why he said  i challeged you Hawk. How can anyone have more respect for Logain, he turn his back on his king and left him to die. GO SEEK SKILLED SEEKER

Modifié par themonty72, 03 juin 2011 - 12:58 .