638 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyvader]

Wulfram wrote...

So your point is what? That all nobles are evil terrorists and should die?

And if I somehow captured Bin Laden, I would not kill him. I would hand him over to the appropriate authorities for trial.

To quote Star Wars.  Mace Windu-"He's too dangerous to be kept alive."

[dragonflight288]

I've been reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

To make a few quotes.

"All war is based on deception."

"If your enemy is weak, strike where he least expects you."

"If you are near, make them think you are far, if you are far, make them think you are near."

"All commanders must serve their country without resolve unshaken, their wills strong. There can be no doubts."

"In any war, long campaigns wear out the hearts and swords of men. Strike fast, but strike smart. Stupidly rushing in brings death to all your men, waiting too long brings death to your men's spirit, and soon your men."

"Let your actions be as darkness, silent and swift so that when you strike, it will be at the most vulnerable moment of your enemy."

All those sayings from the Art of War fit the Arishok.

And anyone who goes into the army knows they're going to kill people. And when people fight, innocent people get caught in the crossfire. War is horrific. War is bloody and brutal. Sun Tzu said only a man who is well acquainted with the horrors of war can use it for profit.

All is fair in love and war. And to the Arishok, Kirkwall was a warzone, full of corruption that he couldn't stand.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Dragonflight.
The Art of War is certainly a good read and I do not mind at all his use of deception and surprise. I think it could have been smart.

Could, but I thought the execution was bad. Indeed, it sounds very much like "Stupidly rushing in brings death to all your men".

Now I've been really trying to understand what the Arishok was thinking precisely, so this is not me being adversarial or trying to refute you. I am genuinely curious at what do you think his plan, both short and long term, was. Why didn't he strike at the gallows and use his advanced weapons?

Why didn't he take advantage of this?
"People in Hightown feel safe, not because the city's walls are impregnable, but because an invader would need to scale the stairs from Lowtown in order to reach them. Many bloody battles have been fought on those narrow stairs, and in several wars Hightown has held out for months after Lowtown was taken."

An obvious explanation is that Bioware continues to be terrible at portraying warfare. But the only in-game one that I can think of is that the Arishok is stupid. Maybe you have a different perspective on this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 04:16 .

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Legitimate military actions are not murder.  The attack on a peaceful envoy is murder.

The killing of the random noble guy who complains after the Arishok beheads the Viscount is unquestionably murder.

Are you for real? What is legitimate to you? That's almost like saying if your country starts a war then it's okay to invade other countries killing people. Would you consider that legitimate too?

In that logic Arishok's is just as legitimate a military force as that of Kirkwall's. Just cuz he's on the opposite side doesn't make him wrong and you right.

Have you ever heard of Just War Theory? Here's a link to the entry in Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: http://plato.stanfor.../entries/war/#2. To sum it up quickly, there are certain conditions under which a war can be justified. These include, among other things, just cause, proper authority, proper intention, and probability of success. The Arishok fulfills none of those. He has no cause to attack the city, when the thief is gone from it; if I remember correctly, he can't declare war without two other Qunari leaders also approving it; his intention seems to simply be revenge, possibly with religious zealotry thrown in there; and the likelihood of about a hundred qunari soldiers defeating and holding an entire city is slim. Therefore, their attack cannot be considered justified and they are morally accountable for every death they caused.

Modifié par Crossroads_Wanderer, 03 juin 2011 - 04:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Therefore, their attack cannot be considered justified

According to the Just War Theory, yes.

Why should he care? Or we for that matter? What makes the Just War Theory objectively more valid than any other theory? 

[Skilled Seeker]

Either way, he is a savage brute, and to respect him is to respect the likes of Hitler and Stalin (though they certainly had more brains than the Arishok).

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 03 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[themonty72]

Meredith was much like Hitler to me...Killed all the mages...that broad was a lunatic. She should be slapped in iron

Modifié par themonty72, 03 juin 2011 - 06:50 .

[Speakeasy13]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Have you ever heard of Just War Theory? Here's a link to the entry in Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: http://plato.stanfor.../entries/war/#2. To sum it up quickly, there are certain conditions under which a war can be justified. These include, among other things, just cause, proper authority, proper intention, and probability of success. The Arishok fulfills none of those. He has no cause to attack the city, when the thief is gone from it; if I remember correctly, he can't declare war without two other Qunari leaders also approving it; his intention seems to simply be revenge, possibly with religious zealotry thrown in there; and the likelihood of about a hundred qunari soldiers defeating and holding an entire city is slim. Therefore, their attack cannot be considered justified and they are morally accountable for every death they caused.

You know, the problem with ALL theories is that, THEY DON'T EXIST IN REALITY. There is no such thing as just cause, because there is never but one cause in any social phenomenon. Even if there's a just factor, there will always be hidden agenda and political context involved. And just cause, no matter how noble in ideological origin, will always wind up an instrument for certain bodies of power to advance their political agenda.

And even only to get that just cause across, one would need to mobilize ppl with ideologies. Religion, nationalism, patriotism, ethnocentrism, any thing that promotes the "us vs. them" mentality. Nothing "just" ever comes out of these.

And the idea of "just" is problematic itself. All the while I've been arguing for cultural relativism/particularism. And if you agree you're essentially saying "I can't judge their actions with my morals". In that case how do you use "proper authority, proper intention, and probability of success" as a proper standard of measure, when these values are only present in our culture, not theirs? What does "proper" even mean? I'm sure they have a complete definition of "proper" than ours.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 03 juin 2011 - 07:16 .

[Well]

themonty72 wrote...

Meredith was much like Hitler to me...Killed all the mages...that broad was a lunatic. She should be slapped in iron

Actually she didn't.There was several times when she let them live.On Hawkes request.Also the one mage that had a night on the town was spared due to his father's intervention.You might add the mage that killed elven kids
or the one who killed women to remake his wife.Plus a herd of mages from Anders, Huad and Grace..I would consider them lunatics also.

Modifié par Well, 03 juin 2011 - 09:54 .

[Nashiktal]

I respect the Arishok for the same reasons I respect any culture that is not my own. The way his mind works, the way he views the world is in a way I cannot possibly imagine because I am not him, nor was I raised in his land in the way of the Qun. I know that had I been born in his place, I would likely be doing the very same things that I find so terrible.

I give the Arishok the respect he deserves, but I do not like him nor do I trust him. Our two cultures are far too alien to ever coexist peacefully and this is one situation where understanding does not bring peace. The actions he finds normal, I find repulsive. The customs I find essential to my traditions, he claims are terrible chaos.

It is only natural we come to conflict as I will not change my ways, and he will not change his. So to war it is, for that seems to be the one common language we know.

[Porenferser]

He stayed calm over three years, despite the crimes that were commited against him and his people.
He just exploded after all what happened, thats comprehensible imO.
And yet his intentions aren't to kill everyone and he will leave after deliver him the book.
Or he will make the others leave after you kill him.
I think that makes him honorable after all.
Meredith on the other hand is just an extremist.
Her doing caused much more damage then the conflict with the Qunari.

[Speakeasy13]

Well wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

Meredith was much like Hitler to me...Killed all the mages...that broad was a lunatic. She should be slapped in iron

the mage that killed elven kids

...He wasn't a mage. He was just a lunatic imagining himself to be seduced by demons.

[Well]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Well wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

Meredith was much like Hitler to me...Killed all the mages...that broad was a lunatic. She should be slapped in iron

the mage that killed elven kids

...He wasn't a mage. He was just a lunatic imagining himself to be seduced by demons.

You are correct..

Modifié par Well, 03 juin 2011 - 09:42 .

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Dragonflight.
The Art of War is certainly a good read and I do not mind at all his use of deception and surprise. I think it could have been smart.

Could, but I thought the execution was bad. Indeed, it sounds very much like "Stupidly rushing in brings death to all your men".

Now I've been really trying to understand what the Arishok was thinking precisely, so this is not me being adversarial or trying to refute you. I am genuinely curious at what do you think his plan, both short and long term, was. Why didn't he strike at the gallows and use his advanced weapons?

Why didn't he take advantage of this?
"People in Hightown feel safe, not because the city's walls are impregnable, but because an invader would need to scale the stairs from Lowtown in order to reach them. Many bloody battles have been fought on those narrow stairs, and in several wars Hightown has held out for months after Lowtown was taken."

An obvious explanation is that Bioware continues to be terrible at portraying warfare. But the only in-game one that I can think of is that the Arishok is stupid. Maybe you have a different perspective on this.

I certaintly do not think the Arishok is stupid. He's one of the most pragmatic people in the game.

I just think it was unfinished like so many other things in the game. They set up the fact that the Qunari have gunpowder and biological weapons and neither are used in the Qunari finale. That just reeks of not having enough time to use them. Gasing the Gallows, blasting their way into Hightown, just something. They seemingly bum rush the Keep (which apparently has no defenses and is always unlocked) and begin to convert nobles.

It just doesn't work. The threat of the Templars remains and all you've done is lock yourself in the Keep which is now surrounded by Templars. It's a seige situation and the Qunari haven't prepared for that, plus their meager force is spread across Lowtown, Hightown, and the Keep.

I love the speed of the attack and I love how they move as quickly as possible to remove the head of their enemy, but they've been in Kirkwall long enough to know Meredith is the true head of the enemy. And even if they didn't the Arishok knows the Viscount's a weak man and that the Chantry's zealots have been his primary antagonists since they landed.

[Porenferser]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Well wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

Meredith was much like Hitler to me...Killed all the mages...that broad was a lunatic. She should be slapped in iron

the mage that killed elven kids

...He wasn't a mage. He was just a lunatic imagining himself to be seduced by demons.

Of course he was a mage.
He summoned demons.

But you are right, he wasn't possessed, he was lunatic.

[LilyasAvalon]

He has an aura of strength, honour, leadership and is a very firm believer in the Qun.

I may not agree with everything he believes in or does, but I understand why he does it and I respect him for that.

[Dormiglione]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Either way, he is a savage brute, and to respect him is to respect the likes of Hitler and Stalin (though they certainly had more brains than the Arishok).

Are you serious. Did you study history? Do you even realize what you have written?

[Porenferser]

Dormiglione wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Either way, he is a savage brute, and to respect him is to respect the likes of Hitler and Stalin (though they certainly had more brains than the Arishok).

Are you serious. Did you study history? Do you even realize what you have written?

Dito, thats just a typical hater post.

[Skilled Seeker]

Dormiglione wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Either way, he is a savage brute, and to respect him is to respect the likes of Hitler and Stalin (though they certainly had more brains than the Arishok).

Are you serious. Did you study history? Do you even realize what you have written?

Yep 100% Arishok is small fry compared to them but the principles are the same and had the Arishok gotten his way, he would have murdered everyone in Kirkwall that didn't become an obedient slave. I am truly disgusted at how many people respect him on these boards.

Saying 'oh but he comes from a different culture so it's not fair to judge him' is frankly BS. Do you respect Osama Bin Laden then?

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 03 juin 2011 - 12:50 .

[Droma]

you make it way to easy for yourself skilled seeker and yes you should probably inform yourself about history before making such BS comparisons. fact is:

the arishok was provoked a dozen times. the qunari didn't do anything for 3 years in kirkwall, then they got provoked by petrice and her party. as a matter of fact the humans (leaded by a high member of the chantry) started the whole conflict, jsut out of religous reasons. that is completly different then anything hitler or stalin did.

as said many times in this thread. if you provoke somebody over month and then he beats the crap out of you doesn't make him an bully, it makes you the dick. but of cause it is allways easier to blaim the other guys. but the qunari represantives who were slaughter by petrice and her gang were as innocent as the nobles killed by the arishok.

but if you like the rl and osama bin laden comparisons then you have to ask yourself, did america anything other then what the arishok did? the point is in your scenrio, osama bin laden is patrice and america is the arishok, not the other way around. osama bin laden provoked america and therefor got his punishment. and as a matter of fact there were also lot of civilanz killed by the americans invading irak. so if you want some rl comparisons, make them right.

Modifié par Droma, 03 juin 2011 - 01:05 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Petrice was the one that was causing trouble, not the entirety of Kirkwall. Does the Arishok deserve to be punished because of the Tal Vashoth? Petrice was dead before the Arishok decided to go on his murderous rampage.

Read my Bin Laden comparison again, you totally misunderstood my point. Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with Bin Laden. And I suggest you brush up on your spelling.

[Porenferser]

It wasn't only Petrice.
Remember, the trigger were Isabella and Aveline.
And really, you should better not make comparisms to Hitler and stuff.

The Qunari do not have Genocide in mind because they think they're race is something better.
They just think they're religion is superior. Whats so bad about that in particular? The chantry thinks the same.
Nearly everyone thinks so.

Yes, the early qunari wars were wrong.
But this is now several hundret years ago.
The present Qunari don't seek war yet.
Remember how the Arishok said *Fixing your mess is not the demand of the Qun*.
The attack was because he exploeded after so many attacks against him and his people.

And you say you are disgusted of people who respect him:
I am disgusted of people who make such comparison.

[Droma]

you compare osama bin laden and his actions to the ones of the arishok, my point is that's it the other way around. and sry i meant afghanistan not iraq, america is at war with too many countries i sometimes get confused sry for that. but to get back to the game, the arishok didn't start a invasion until his people were slaughtered by a high member of the chantry. the demand on handing the elves over was just the tip of the iceberg. i agree that his actions were still too extreme but it isn't in anyway like anything hitler or stalin did.

with your argumentation america didn't have any reasons to invade afghanistan, cause everyone directly responsible for 9/11 was dead. only the leaders were yet to find. the arishok knows that petrice is dead but he also knows she was a high member of the chantry so why would you think he would think that she was the head of the gang (complicated sentence i know).

and sry if my english isn't the best. it's not my mother language (as you may have noticed =D).

edit: ok porenforsers post is better, it's basically what i meant.

Modifié par Droma, 03 juin 2011 - 01:43 .

[themonty72]

So, so, so, true

[Skilled Seeker]

I compared him to Osama Bin Laden soley to address the culture argument, nothing else. People have been saying 'oh he's from a different culture, you can't judge him dude'. I hope you'll agree with me that this is a BS argument.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 03 juin 2011 - 01:50 .