638 réponses à ce sujet

[Speakeasy13]

Well wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Indeed, that's what I've been saying. If someone follows a terrible dogma, then it doesn't matter what other attributes they might have, they deserve absolutely no respect. Many evil people are loyal to their causes.

What do you mean a terrible dogma? Who decides what is a "terrible" dogma? In the words of a skilled debator Adraste can easily be made to seem just as terrible, if not worse than the Qun.

You can't accuse a religion of being "terrible". That's racist.

OMG!Your frelling playing the race card?LMFAO off.

OMG! You can't even put spaces between sentences properly and you don't even know what the O in LMAFO stands for? LMFAO.

[Well]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Well wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Indeed, that's what I've been saying. If someone follows a terrible dogma, then it doesn't matter what other attributes they might have, they deserve absolutely no respect. Many evil people are loyal to their causes.

What do you mean a terrible dogma? Who decides what is a "terrible" dogma? In the words of a skilled debator Adraste can easily be made to seem just as terrible, if not worse than the Qun.

You can't accuse a religion of being "terrible". That's racist.

OMG!Your frelling playing the race card?LMFAO off.

OMG! You can't even put spaces between sentences properly and you don't even know what the O in LMAFO stands for? LMFAO.

No I can"t and yes I do.Take your time.You'll figure it out.

[Dormiglione]

Well wrote...

Oh really.He was staying in quarters provided by Viscount.His problems don't matter.Kirkwall doesnt owe him anything .You dont get to move a military force into a city.He is not entiled to be there.So how many caravans were attacked by qunari renegades?That doesnt count?Wasnt he passive?Did he stop them?They had the option to leave at anytime.It isnt Kirkwalls responsibility to cater to them.His not havent his holy book isnt their problem.They don't have to change his diaper or burp him.Sorry the world doesnt revolve around him.He may feel he is entiltled but he aint.
 

Each one has contributed his part to the desaster.

The viscount for his passive stance, he knew about the fanatic groups in the city. But because there were nobility people involved, he did nothing, because he had to be cautious.

Elvina for ignoring the mage-templar conflict. Also her passive stance towards meredith and orsino. She had the power, the right to intervene. And she did what? Nothing.

The corruption through the whole city, Jevan, Templars, City Guards and Petrice and a lot of their misguided follower.

Hawke, for knowing about the tome and letting escape Isabela with it.

Everyone contributed to the desaster. You cant blame only the Arishok. He was the one who had the most integrity out of all people involved in that mess.


Just a little out of context. In contry (A) is a embassy from a foreign nation ( that nobody really likes in country (A). Fanatics kidnap people from the embassy of the nation (. What does the government of country (A) do? Nothing? I dont think so.

I said it in different posts. It was not the best decision of the Arishok to go on rampage. But to say he is 100% guilty and responsible for that what happened is wrong.

Modifié par Dormiglione, 04 juin 2011 - 10:11 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Stop bring up Andraste. Just because other evils exist, doesn't mean the Arishok, who we are discussing here, is excused. If you want to discuss the evils of the Andrastean faith, do so in another thread, but no one here said that it is good. It is the lesser of two evils however because it allows more freedom than the oppressive regime of the Qun, and I can see society evolving from it to become more liberal in the future, as happened with our world and the Catholic Church which Andrastean faith is based off. There is no evolution under the Qun as there is no free thought, it is by principal a stagnant system. It must be destroyed, that is the only way liberation can happen. Unless you believe that the Qun is the ultimate social system, in which case I hope you never get into a position of power.

[Well]

Dormiglione wrote...

Well wrote...

Oh really.He was staying in quarters provided by Viscount.His problems don't matter.Kirkwall doesnt owe him anything .You dont get to move a military force into a city.He is not entiled to be there.So how many caravans were attacked by qunari renegades?That doesnt count?Wasnt he passive?Did he stop them?They had the option to leave at anytime.It isnt Kirkwalls responsibility to cater to them.His not havent his holy book isnt their problem.They don't have to change his diaper or burp him.Sorry the world doesnt revolve around him.He may feel he is entiltled but he aint.
 

Each one has contributed his part to the desaster.

The viscount for his passive stance, he knew about the fanatic groups in the city. But because there were nobility people involved, he did nothing, because he had to be cautious.

Elvina for ignoring the mage-templar conflict. Also her passive stance towards meredith and orsino. She had the power, the right to intervene. And she did what? Nothing.

The corruption through the whole city, Jevan, Templars, City Guards and Petrice and a lot of their misguided follower.

Hawke, for knowing about the tome and letting escape Isabela with it.

Everyone contributed to the desaster. You cant blame only the Arishok. He was the one who had the most integrity out of all people involved in that mess.


Just a little out of context. In contry (A) is a embassy from a foreign nation ( that nobody really likes in country (A). Fanatics kidnap peopla from the embassy of the nation (. What does the government of country (A) do? Nothing? I dont think so.

I said it in different posts. It was not the best decision of the Arishok to go on rampage. But to say he is 100% guilty and responsible for that what happened is wrong.

What about Arshoks passive stand on the Tal Vasha?He knew what they were doing.How many Qunari were actually killed by these fanatics.Also most fanatics were not nobles.

I think Elvina should of done something but how many on these boards have complained of the chantry having to much power or glad that it blown up?Reminds me of cops.Some people complain about them until they need them.

Should Kirkwall done something yes.Also remember Elvina was going to let the Viscount have Petrice for trial.Until she was shot.

Should the Viscount have done something.Sure.He Hawke on the job.

As far as the kidnappers Hawke took care of them.

As far as Hawke and the book.It was lame but another choice taken out of the players hands.

Just curious.How does Arishok have integrity when he lied to his host?Didnt stop the Tal Vasha from murdering people.

Modifié par Well, 05 juin 2011 - 04:17 .

[dragonflight288]

I'm guessing the Arishok allowed the Tal Vashoth to kill the people of Kirkwall and the people of Kirkwall to kill the Tal Vashoth because it was a military strategy. Allow two enemies to fight and kill each other so both are weakened.

When you are a military leader, you can't think of morals in the concepts of murder allowing things to happen. That's from a civic viewpoint with civil laws. Martial law and military strategem is a different ball game. If you decided not to do the practical, fast way of handling things in war, you're setting yourself up for slaughter.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 05 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Then stop being hypocrites and blaming the Viscount for not dealing with the Chantry fanatics.

[dragonflight288]

Well, the Viscount was so busy appeasing everyone that he wasn't politically strong. He should have, but he didn't. I place blame where it's due. Petrice provoked the Arishok, the Viscount and Grand Cleric didn't stop her, and the Arishok was acting as a military leader in a city only used to politics and not military strategy.

My arguments have always been that the Arishok is worthy of respect, even if one doesn't like him. You don't have to like someone to respect their ability to keep an advantage.

[Sajuro]

I respect him because he was the only leader in that game seemed reasonable and strong. Meredith was crazy and strong, Orsino was crazy and weak, The Viscount was reasonable and weak, the Arishok was the only one who wasn't crazy or too weak to do anything of importance.

[Well]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm guessing the Arishok allowed the Tal Vashoth to kill the people of Kirkwall and the people of Kirkwall to kill the Tal Vashoth because it was a military strategy. Allow two enemies to fight and kill each other so both are weakened.

When you are a military leader, you can't think of morals in the concepts of murder allowing things to happen. That's from a civic viewpoint with civil laws. Martial law and military strategem is a different ball game. If you decided not to do the practical, fast way of handling things in war, you're setting yourself up for slaughter.

Arishok couldnt control the Tal Vashoth because he was a weak leader.He didnt ask them to leave they deserted.He was incompetant.How many years did he take trying to recover the book?All he did was sit around pouting and making faces.That and a whole lot of whineing.There is a old saying.Lead,follow or get the hell out of the way.He didnt do any of the three.He just sat there and moped.Oh those bad Kirkwallers..sob they aren't playing by my rules.Pretty pathetic.He couldn't lead a gaggle of geese.When you have a mission you don't sit around counting your toes. 

[dragonflight288]

They did desert, but there is nothing in the game that says they deserted because of the Arishok. They deserted because they weren't happy with their role in the Qun. They deserted because they wanted the freedom to make their own choices. And they chose to become bandits on the outside of town.

[Dormiglione]

Well wrote...

What about Arshoks passive stand on the Tal Vasha?He knew what they were doing.How many Qunari were actually killed by these fanatics.Also most fanatics were not nobles.

I think Elvina should of done something but how many on these boards have complained of the chantry having to much power or glad that it blown up?Reminds me of cops.Some people complain about them until they need them.

Should Kirkwall done something yes.Also remember Elvina was going to let the Viscount have Petrice for trial.Until she was shot.

Should the Viscount have done something.Sure.He Hawke on the job.

As far as the kidnappers Hawke took care of them.

As far as Hawke and the book.It was lame but another choice taken out of the players hands.

Just curious.How does Arishok have integrity when he lied to his host?Didnt stop the Tal Vasha from murdering people.

I give you that. The Arishok didnt care at all about the Tal Vashoth. One side of extreme side of the Qun. If you leave the Qun, you are not a Qunari. For the Qun they are not deserted, they stopped to be Qunari.

Still, Hawke asked Elvina to do something. She remained passive. As for petrice, it was too late, did Elvina really not realize what were going on? Or did she really thought that time would make everything alright?

The conflict with the Qunari started before Hawke arrived at Kirkwall. The viscount mentioned Hawke that he knew about the fanatic groups and that they were supported by nobility and other persons. To send Hawke to negotiate with the Qunari, but not taking actions against the fanatics showed that the viscount had no control of the situation.

Yes, Hawke took care about the kidnappers, but again only a reaction, he then told the viscount about petrice and the templar that were involved. What did the viscount?

>> As far as Hawke and the book.It was lame but another choice taken out of the players hands.
Yes, like many other choices. Still, with Hawke returning the tome, the Qunari would have left Kirkwall.

The Arishok didnt trust the viscount. The Arishok was well informed about what were going on in the city. Why should he trust a passive leader like the viscount that had lost control over his own city.

Each party contributed to the events that happened.

[themonty72]

Yes I agree with Dormiglione you are excatly right

Modifié par themonty72, 05 juin 2011 - 05:33 .

[Dormiglione]

Thank you

[Well]

Dormiglione wrote...

Well wrote...

What about Arshoks passive stand on the Tal Vasha?He knew what they were doing.How many Qunari were actually killed by these fanatics.Also most fanatics were not nobles.

I think Elvina should of done something but how many on these boards have complained of the chantry having to much power or glad that it blown up?Reminds me of cops.Some people complain about them until they need them.

Should Kirkwall done something yes.Also remember Elvina was going to let the Viscount have Petrice for trial.Until she was shot.

Should the Viscount have done something.Sure.He Hawke on the job.

As far as the kidnappers Hawke took care of them.

As far as Hawke and the book.It was lame but another choice taken out of the players hands.

Just curious.How does Arishok have integrity when he lied to his host?Didnt stop the Tal Vasha from murdering people.

I give you that. The Arishok didnt care at all about the Tal Vashoth. One side of extreme side of the Qun. If you leave the Qun, you are not a Qunari. For the Qun they are not deserted, they stopped to be Qunari.

Still, Hawke asked Elvina to do something. She remained passive. As for petrice, it was too late, did Elvina really not realize what were going on? Or did she really thought that time would make everything alright?

The conflict with the Qunari started before Hawke arrived at Kirkwall. The viscount mentioned Hawke that he knew about the fanatic groups and that they were supported by nobility and other persons. To send Hawke to negotiate with the Qunari, but not taking actions against the fanatics showed that the viscount had no control of the situation.

Yes, Hawke took care about the kidnappers, but again only a reaction, he then told the viscount about petrice and the templar that were involved. What did the viscount?

>> As far as Hawke and the book.It was lame but another choice taken out of the players hands.
Yes, like many other choices. Still, with Hawke returning the tome, the Qunari would have left Kirkwall.

The Arishok didnt trust the viscount. The Arishok was well informed about what were going on in the city. Why should he trust a passive leader like the viscount that had lost control over his own city.

Each party contributed to the events that happened.

"I give you that. The Arishok didnt care at all about the Tal Vashoth.
One side of extreme side of the Qun. If you leave the Qun, you are not a
Qunari. For the Qun they are not deserted, they stopped to be Qunari."

Remember after you took out the Tal Vashon Arishok said something to the effect it was their job.Also if you dont accept your position in the Qun your dead.

As far as Elvina well until the confrontation in the chantry with Petrise she seemed unaware of it.When Hawke let her know know what was going on and Petrise spilled her guts Evina did take action.

Yes in act 2 the radicals were stiring but no real visable actions happen till the kidnapping.The ruckus
in the entrance area.Then when Petrise told you about her former bodyguard.The majority I fought were dressed as commoners.Hawke was still on his mission to appease the Qunari.

Da Book.Wasn't it missing from the city for 3 years?Arishok was not actively pursueing it.He was just sitting in his compound feeling self righteous.Polishing his horns or something.Besides the game didnt even allow you(PC) to get the book till the final confrontation.

The Viscount wasn't strong but he was trying to do the best he could.With the mage/templar,radicals,blood mages and qunari.He just had the Guard.Who to me were more like the police.I think I saw one with donuts.

[Porenferser]

@ Well
We/you can't jugde how much the Arishok did to recover the book, because until the end, we didn't even know why he was here, so it is likey that behind the scenes more was going on.
And remember:
In the end they found the book
The Qunari were there (at the meeting of the Tevinters) first, Isabella just exploited the turmoil and ran away with it.

Beside from that, I really don't get how people find it petty to search for a book for 3 years.
I mean, it could have been anywahere in the Free Marches (or else) and it is really just a book, thats like the classical 'needle in haystack' search.

Modifié par Porenferser, 05 juin 2011 - 08:04 .

[Well]

Porenferser wrote...

@ Well
We you can't jugde how much the Arishok did to recover the book, because until the end, we didn't even know why he was here, so it is likey that behind thescenes more was going on.
And remember:
In the end they found the book
The Qunari were there, at the meeting of the Tevinters, first, Isabella just exploited the turmoil and ran away with it.

Beside from that, I really don't get how people find it petty to search for a book for 4 years.
I mean, it could have been anywahere in the Free Marches (or else) and it is really just a book, thats like the classical 'needle in haystack' search.

I only working with what I have for info.I do know even after the fact that the book had been gone for 3 years.If he couldnt get info on it being in Kirkwall he should of moved on with his search.

[Speakeasy13]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Stop bring up Andraste. Just because other evils exist, doesn't mean the Arishok, who we are discussing here, is excused. If you want to discuss the evils of the Andrastean faith, do so in another thread, but no one here said that it is good. It is the lesser of two evils however because it allows more freedom than the oppressive regime of the Qun, and I can see society evolving from it to become more liberal in the future, as happened with our world and the Catholic Church which Andrastean faith is based off. There is no evolution under the Qun as there is no free thought, it is by principal a stagnant system. It must be destroyed, that is the only way liberation can happen. Unless you believe that the Qun is the ultimate social system, in which case I hope you never get into a position of power.

Free =/= good. How many times do we have to go back to this arguing this ASSUMPTON? Free societies aren't automatically the most civil of all societies; it's just so happens that at this particular point of historic trajectory we happen to have that dynamic. In the past collectivistic societies have been known to dominate in terms of production power. Even the Qunari as we know it are obviously more advanced in technology than humans.

And why must we compare two COMPLETE different and particularistic cultures and say one is better than other? Why can't we just allow the fact that different societies and cultures exist, they are equally civilized and should be left alone just the way they are? See what "free" society had done to the Elves. Would it make you happy if the same happen to the Qunari?

And I thought in one of the previous discussions about the World Systems Theory we have alrdy explained that why Catholicism gave birth to free thought but some other religions did not - because Catholic societies oppressed them! So stop bringing up modern analogies. They're inherently ethnocentric and completely ignores diachronic views.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 05 juin 2011 - 09:56 .

[Coous]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

So does Osama Bin Laden. i guess he deserves your respect too.

Sure I can respect him in his dedication to a dying old world view point despite times change around him Now do I agree with what or how he forced his views or what he did to people? Do I like who he was? No, but just because you can respect someone and not like them. Can you say for yourself stand 100% for what you believe and follow to the end? Many can claim, but many also fall through on this. But since you want to use an extreme I'll give you my answer to an extreme example of it. He also wasn't the first or last of his kind, rebel leaders can be respectable based on their dedication. 

The Arishok is respectable because he follows true to what he follows without conviction, there are people who sell out what they stand for or follow a crowd and don't hone up to their beliefs and just let it go becuase it may just be easier. Now if you personally want to keep dragging extrme situations like Bin Laden up to rebuttle what I said in that first paragraph  feel free to drop me a message as that is a different issue , but this is about the Arishok and I backed up I mean by respecting a person.

[Skilled Seeker]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Snip

Free societies are the most liberal. I believe modern liberal values are good. Therefore I cannot stand the Qun and yes I would like it to be destroyed as I have said multiple times. Why is this difficult for you to grasp?

As for the post above, I do not believe conviction deserves respect if that conviction is to an evil ideology. So no, I view both Osama and the Arishok as dangerous lunatics worthy of contempt not respect.

[themonty72]

The way of the Qun is the way you should try Skilled Seeker. You claim to hate the Arishok but deep down you love him and the Qunaris. You know they was the most interesting thing that happen to Dragon Age 2. Stop all this hating and debating and except the way of Qun. YOU SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL  words from the Arishok. Well you should be grateful a charater like this was present in the dragon age world. Respect due.

Modifié par themonty72, 05 juin 2011 - 12:37 .

[Rifneno]

I'll respect that piece of nug crap when he does something worthy of respect. The qun is a disease, and the Arishok is a pustule. Nothing more.

The only thing a culture that thinks it's their right to convert everyone else by way of mass murder and terrorism deserves is death.

[Skilled Seeker]

themonty72 wrote...

The way of the Qun is the way you should try Skilled Seeker. You claim to hate the Arishok but deep down you love him and the Qunaris. You know they was the most interesting thing that happen to Dragon Age 2. Stop all this hating and debating and except the way of Qun. YOU SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL  words from the Arishok. Well you should be grateful a charater like this was present in the dragon age world. Respect due.

I think he is well written. This thread isn't about that. And why should we stop debating, what is the point of these forums then?

[Dormiglione]

Well wrote...

"I give you that. The Arishok didnt care at all about the Tal Vashoth.
One side of extreme side of the Qun. If you leave the Qun, you are not a
Qunari. For the Qun they are not deserted, they stopped to be Qunari."

Remember after you took out the Tal Vashon Arishok said something to the effect it was their job.Also if you dont accept your position in the Qun your dead.

And the Arishok expressed his respect to Hawke

Well wrote...

As far as Elvina well until the confrontation in the chantry with Petrise she seemed unaware of it.When Hawke let her know know what was going on and Petrise spilled her guts Evina did take action.

She just turned away from petrice but did nothing else. Just passive and observing.

Well wrote...
Yes in act 2 the radicals were stiring but no real visable actions happen till the kidnapping.The ruckus
in the entrance area.Then when Petrise told you about her former bodyguard.The majority I fought were dressed as commoners.Hawke was still on his mission to appease the Qunari.

And the had stolen the qunari poison, killed the qunari guards and killed a lot more innocent humans just to put the qunari in miscredit.

Well wrote...

Da Book.Wasn't it missing from the city for 3 years?Arishok was not actively pursueing it.He was just sitting in his compound feeling self righteous.Polishing his horns or something.Besides the game didnt even allow you(PC) to get the book till the final confrontation.

In the meantime Hawke was counting the stairs in his mansion / estate.

Well wrote...

The Viscount wasn't strong but he was trying to do the best he could.With the mage/templar,radicals,blood mages and qunari.He just had the Guard.Who to me were more like the police.I think I saw one with donuts.

The viscount was trapped in his own political situation. Instead of taking clear action, sending clear messages, he was busy to appease everyone.

The Arishok showed patience. I remember a discussion between him and Hawke about the son of the viscount. Hawke asked him, if he would take advantage of the fact that the son of the viscount converted to the Qun.
The Arishok answered something like this: The Qun could demand that the son of the viscount would be used in some extent to have an advantage for negotiaton. But he (the Arishok) wouldnt do that.

The Arishok showed respect towards the son of the viscount.

Modifié par Dormiglione, 05 juin 2011 - 02:03 .

[dragonflight288]

The only thing a culture that thinks it's their right to convert everyone else by way of mass murder and terrorism deserves is death.

That applies to every culture and race in Thedas.