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[Jedi Master of Orion]

He couldn't go home. And he couldn't remain blind to this dysfunction.

Seriously though, I get it. I think he was a very well made character because I hated him and still understood and respected his underlying motivation. Kirkwall was rather mired in dysfunction. In fact wasn't that the point of the game?

[Rifneno]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

To the Qunari, the entire society of Kirkwall is the root of the problem. To them, life under the Qun would be a blessing compared to their current situation. The Qunari have a pretty fascist society, the only way to convert a large unwilling populace to such is with force. Again, whether or not their Qun is wrong, the Qunari are at least sincere in their beliefs and act in an honorable manner.

Murdering an unarmed man for saying "this will lead to war!" is honorable to you?

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Except his solution was suicide. He did not have the manpower to take Kirkwall. What did he expect to accomplish from his rampage?

An excellent point.  He had no chance of victory.  None.  He was only successful because the aspect of surprise was still in effect.  Once the city's three main forces (city guard, templars, mages) rallied into an organized counterattack, it was over.  Even if by a miracle he did beat them, the few remaining forces he had left would have to fend off the rest of the Free Marches when they came to take back what's theirs.  The Arishok led his men to a suicide attack, plain and simple.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...
Except his solution was suicide. He did not have the manpower to take Kirkwall. What did he expect to accomplish from his rampage?

An excellent point.  He had no chance of victory.  None.  He was only successful because the aspect of surprise was still in effect.  Once the city's three main forces (city guard, templars, mages) rallied into an organized counterattack, it was over.  Even if by a miracle he did beat them, the few remaining forces he had left would have to fend off the rest of the Free Marches when they came to take back what's theirs.  The Arishok led his men to a suicide attack, plain and simple.

There was a slight chance of victory or at least holding on until reinforcements arrive, if the Arishok knocked out or severily weakened or damaged the gallows with explosives and the crazy inducing gas and we know that the Qunari have death squads that can inflitrate the Gallows in broad day light.

And more importantly, if he took advantage of this:
"People in Hightown feel safe, not because the city's walls are impregnable, but because an invader would need to scale the stairs from Lowtown in order to reach them. Many bloody battles have been fought on those narrow stairs, and in several wars Hightown has held out for months after Lowtown was taken."

Especially since he took over hightown with ease and the Templars are on the complete other side (so plenty of time to set up defenses, especially if the gas attack worked).

But of course he didn't. Because Kirkwall imposes a 40% tax on IQ upon entry.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[kyles3]

I don't respect the Arishok any more than I respect Loghain or Anders, but I do appreciate a well-written villain.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think he believed that he had the man power to take Kirkwall.

Here's a question. The justification that I often hear about Elthina (and everyone around her)'s murder was that she deserved to die because she didn't do anything stop the Templar abuses or diffuse the tension. So how is that different from what the Qunari did? Dumar didn't order the attacks on the Qunari but he didn't stop them either. So why is he not guilty by the same token?

Why is ending the corruption of the Krikwall Templars worth destroying the entire Chantry but purging the corruption of all of Kirkwall not worth attacking the city over? In both cases many people died who were not guilty of anything but being vaguely associated with criminals.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 mai 2011 - 10:39 .

[kromify]

Rifneno wrote...

kromify wrote...

uh... who's mass murder are we talking about now? real life or dragon age life?  

Either one. Ethics, while malleable to situation, are not confined to a location. If it is wrong here, it is wrong there.

okay. both the arishok and osama did what they thought they must. by osama's code (imo warped extreme and positvely stupid code) he had an obligation to do what he did. his morals are clearly different from ours

it's the same with many cultures. trying to bring the topic away from the charged areas - for poor countries with a lot of working class citizens life has little value, in contrast america which values individuality above anything else.
both a temporal and geographical example; treatment of women, blacks, homosexuals. abusing any of these groups would not be considered amoral because they are not valued. eg correctional rape in south africa.

i'm not trying to say that murder is okay, because i really don't. but morals are subjective

[HogarthHughes 3]

The Qun is brutal and oppressive, I won't argue with that. The options he gave the nobles was likely just convert or die, which also seems to be what the Qunari intend to give to all of Thedas at some point. However thats not the issue here. The Qunari didn't come to Kirkwall to fight, they came there to retrieve a sacred text and perhaps apprehend the thief as well, though I suspect they'd be willing to leave with just the book if they didn't know where the thief was. They allowed the fanatics to poke and prod at them for years. The Qunari in Kirkwall did nothing to instigate the violence towards them other than exist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Here's a question. The justification that I often hear about Elthina (and everyone around her)'s murder was that she deserved to die because she didn't do anything stop the Templar abuses or diffuse the tension. So how is that different from what the Qunari did? Dumar didn't order the attacks on the Qunari but he didn't stop them either. So why is he not guilty by the same toke.

Here's my view on all of this.

Meredith, Orsino, Alrik, Elthina, the Divine, Cassandra / Seekers,  Petrice, her Templar bf, Viscount Dumar, the Arishok, the Aribaas, Anders, Isabela and most important of all, Hawke, should all present their immediate resignation

With no pay.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 10:43 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The justification that I often hear about Elthina (and everyone around her)'s murder was that she deserved to die because she didn't do anything stop the Templar abuses or diffuse the tension.

Just in case this was directed at me, I don't believe Elthina deserved to be killed, only demoted to a position of less responsibility.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It wasn't really directed to any one person in particular because I've heard it several times from more than one person.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 mai 2011 - 10:44 .

[kromify]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think he believed that he had the man power to take Kirkwall.

Here's a question. The justification that I often hear about Elthina (and everyone around her)'s murder was that she deserved to die because she didn't do anything stop the Templar abuses or diffuse the tension. So how is that different from what the Qunari did? Dumar didn't order the attacks on the Qunari but he didn't stop them either. So why is he not guilty by the same token?

Why is ending the corruption of the Krikwall Templars worth destroying the entire Chantry but purging the corruption of all of Kirkwall not worth attacking the city over? In both cases many people died who were not guilty of anything but being vaguely associated with criminals.

he tried. and he sent hawke to deal. ineffectual is not the same as someone who ignores corruption in the hopes it will go away and sort itself out  (when you tell elthina about the forging)

[kromify]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The justification that I often hear about Elthina (and everyone around her)'s murder was that she deserved to die because she didn't do anything stop the Templar abuses or diffuse the tension.

Just in case this was directed at me, I don't believe Elthina deserved to be killed, only demoted to a position of less responsibility.

being useless isn't usually a resaon to kill someone. except in bad movies  :innocent:
but it was effective 

[Skilled Seeker]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

The Qun is brutal and oppressive, I won't argue with that. The options he gave the nobles was likely just convert or die, which also seems to be what the Qunari intend to give to all of Thedas at some point. However thats not the issue here. The Qunari didn't come to Kirkwall to fight, they came there to retrieve a sacred text and perhaps apprehend the thief as well, though I suspect they'd be willing to leave with just the book if they didn't know where the thief was. They allowed the fanatics to poke and prod at them for years. The Qunari in Kirkwall did nothing to instigate the violence towards them other than exist.

The people acting against them were as you say, fanatics. They did not represent Kirkwall, and the Chantry and Kirkwall did not agree with their actions. Sister Petrice was to be punished before the Qunari decided to take matters into their own hands. The authority of Kirkwall did their best to keep the peace, that's why the Viscount requested your help. Yet the Qunari went to war with them. 

The Qunari were just as responsible for raising tensions as the fanatics. As I mentioned, they protected the elven fugative 'converts' knowing that Kirkwall could never allow this. They also had death squads in the Gallows. 
The Arishok started the war.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 24 mai 2011 - 10:54 .

[Amagoi]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Aveline made it clear that they were not looking for a fight but a peaceful resolution. He is a guest in the city, he should answer to the guard or leave. Certainly he should not get involved in trivial matters such as the elven fugatives. He must have wanted war otherwise he would have handed them over. He knew Kirkwall could not allow the Qunari to live under a different law, otherwise anyone could commit crimes then convert to the Qun and be untouchable.

I wouldn't doubt that the Arishok went in to this meeting hoping for a peaceful resolution. He seems very much the type that if he thought there was no chance, he would outright attack or inform Hawke of his decision. From what a Sten said, the Arishok didn't intend to kill Hawke, merely capture him/her.

I'm not sure the Qunari considered themselves guest. They resented being stuck in Kirkwall. They asked for nothing, when they could easily have had a compound in Hightown and be living in luxury. The Viscount pratically said outright that he would like nothing more than to force the Qunari out of the city, but they simply didn't have the manpower to do it.

For the elves, I think it was more of the last straw. My biggest gripe with this scene was that Hawke didn't get the choice to request the Arishok punish the elves according to Qunari law. That would have been the best solution to everything, though in hindsight I doubt the Arishok would have complied to that. He understood their actions and may have approved of them. If situations had been different, I know myself and several others wouldn't be so insistent on the punishment of the elves. Especially when Hawke could take justice into his/her own hands in Act 1, also involving the murder of elves.

Skilled Seeker wrote...
Except his solution was suicide. He did not have the manpower to take Kirkwall. What did he expect to accomplish from his rampage?

I'm not convinced he knew it was a guarenteed suicide. The plan had risks, and as a general he knew it could fall apart quickly and horribly. It's entirely possible that he would have succeeded if Hawke wasn't there. It's also possible that even in failure, the Arishok would win something.

This is entirely theoritical of course, but it's possible the Arishok believed his actions would have more of a widespread effect. It could show the Qunari that some groups aren't deserving of peace, and that more immediate action needed to be taken. It's possible what happened could spark a reignited war for the Qunari. Though I personally doubt it will be a new Exalted March; Thedas is just too preoccupied for that.

There's also the possible message that under the Qun, elves and the oppressed get a fair deal. It could be seen that he attacked the corrupt nobility in defence of the downtrodden. That's a very powerful message. He may have done more damage by losing than he did by winning.

But that's all spitballing on my part, and Act 2 could have no effects aside from making Hawke important.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Yes messengers. He was willing to wait 3+ years doing nothing. He could have waited a few more months to tell the others of his plans, see if they agree with him, request reinforcements to successfully invade Kirkwall. His actions affect all Qunari and he carries great responsibilty as a result. He should not make sure important decisions in haste without the other leaders of his people having a say.

He didn't spend those years doing nothing. He spent that time being frustrated and searching for a relic that refused to be turned up, or constantly escaped his grasp. I can't even imagine being eluded by something for that long and continuing the search, knowing you can't go home without it.

At the time, events were escalating too fast. The Tome had just turned up, only to be snatched and carried off by it's thief from 3 years ago (which would have driven me, personally, apopletic.), his diplomats had been tortured and murdered, and his converts were being threatened. There simply wasn't the option to send for advice or help. Being the Arishok, he probably was confident that his decisions would be respected due to the trust shown to give him the post in the first place.

Reinforcements would never come. Kirkwall is far away, it would take even more time for an army to come, and by that time hostilities may have ignited anyway. I'm sure he would have liked nothing more than to consult with his peers and receive back up, but it wasn't an ideal situation for anyone.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

He is a well written character, I agree. However he is not worthy of respect in my eyes.

Respect is like anything else, it's subjective. But the fact that he causes a thread like this definatly shows that he was a great villian. I hope we get more in that style of Immovable Object vs Unstoppable Force.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Amagoi wrote...
Respect is like anything else, it's subjective. But the fact that he causes a thread like this definatly shows that he was a great villian. I hope we get more in that style of Immovable Object vs Unstoppable Force.

I thought he was more of an antagonist than a villain.

The villain in DA2 is Kirkwall, with its strange affects on IQ and sanity.

[Huntress]

"Certainly he should not get involved in trivial matters such as the elven fugatives. He must have wanted war otherwise he would have handed them over."

No he wouldn't hand them over, they were convert to qunari that makes them qunari and they now go by other laws, Quanri weren't going around town asking for people to join them, the people went to them, for that reason alone he wasn't going to let them go.

Put whatever reason you want, he only saw this converts looking to be saved from the chaos, poverty and the "blind side" of justice that was running in the city.

Add to that his people being killed by zealot, other people being killed and getting frame for it... civilized you said. the Arishock acted more civilized that anyone in the city if you ask me.

[Skilled Seeker]

Huntress wrote...

"Certainly he should not get involved in trivial matters such as the elven fugatives. He must have wanted war otherwise he would have handed them over."

No he wouldn't hand them over, they were convert to qunari that makes them qunari and they now go by other laws, Quanri weren't going around town asking for people to join them, the people went to them, for that reason alone he wasn't going to let them go.

Put whatever reason you want, he only saw this converts looking to be saved from the chaos, poverty and the "blind side" of justice that was running in the city.

Add to that his people being killed by zealot, other people being killed and getting frame for it... civilized you said. the Arishock acted more civilized that anyone in the city if you ask me.

Ridiculous. The city is not his, he cannot take the law into his own hands.  Don't you see what a loophole this would create, people everywhere would go on crime sprees then convert to the Qun! That would only serve to creat more chaos and increase tensions.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

The people acting against them were as you say, fanatics. They did not represent Kirkwal and the Chantry and Kirkwall did not agree with their actions. Sister Petrice was to be punished before the Qunari decided to take matters into their own hands. The authority of Kirkwall did their best to keep the peace, that's why the Viscount requested your help. Yet the Qunari went to war with them. 

The Qunari were just as responsible for raising tensions as the fanatics. As I mentioned, they protected the elven fugative 'converts' knowing that Kirkwall could never allow this. They also had death squads in the Gallows. 
The Arishok started the war.

I agree, the Arishoks protection of the elven fugitives was practically him giving the middle finger to Kirkwall.  He was just a hairsbreadth away from declaring war at that point.  One thing though, the Arishok doesn't see the fanatics as just a small part of the population, with the rest being more respectable.  I don't remember the exact quote, but it goes something like "they are just symptoms of the disease that is your society."

[Huntress]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

The Qun is brutal and oppressive, I won't argue with that. The options he gave the nobles was likely just convert or die, which also seems to be what the Qunari intend to give to all of Thedas at some point. However thats not the issue here. The Qunari didn't come to Kirkwall to fight, they came there to retrieve a sacred text and perhaps apprehend the thief as well, though I suspect they'd be willing to leave with just the book if they didn't know where the thief was. They allowed the fanatics to poke and prod at them for years. The Qunari in Kirkwall did nothing to instigate the violence towards them other than exist.

The people acting against them were as you say, fanatics. They did not represent Kirkwal and the Chantry and Kirkwall did not agree with their actions. Sister Petrice was to be punished before the Qunari decided to take matters into their own hands. The authority of Kirkwall did their best to keep the peace, that's why the Viscount requested your help. Yet the Qunari went to war with them. 

The Qunari were just as responsible for raising tensions as the fanatics. As I mentioned, they protected the elven fugative 'converts' knowing that Kirkwall could never allow this. They also had death squads in the Gallows. 
The Arishok started the war.

The death squads aren't qunaries, they are either fanatics/ slavers/ criminals.

What tension? Existing? been different? Not believing in the Maker?
The tension was part of the plan from sister patrice, the qunari didn't ask for anything, NOTHING and yet they were killed, insulted and framed just because they existed.

You are just seen everything from one side.. and thats not right, the only thing that the qunari wanted was to be left alone, to find the thief with the book and go back to whatever island they live. Everything also that follow was thanks to sister patrice.

About the elves again, the system is broken, like I said before, the elves asked the guards for help against a guard trying to rape the sister, they took matter into their own hand, for been elves the law put little to no interest of what ever happen to this people, the only thing that matter to the law was, that a soon to be rapist was killed before doing the deed. The elves will probably have been executed for stoping a rapist.

Modifié par Huntress, 24 mai 2011 - 11:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Ridiculous. The city is not his, he cannot take the law into his own hands.  Don't you see what a loophole this would create, people everywhere would go on crime sprees then convert to the Qun! That would only serve to creat more chaos and increase tensions.

Of course he can take the law into his own hands. Everyone can. He is the executor of the only law that binds him. Your belief in the mandated respect for the laws of other cultures is, itself, far from a univeral belief, and one that ranges even within cultures of the real world.

There is no suggestion, no evidence, or even any implication that those converts will be permitted to freely commit any other crimes, or keep any spoils from crimes.

[Skilled Seeker]

OK so people say the Arishok believed he had a chance at taking the city. Could they elaborate? I mean the Arishok doesn't even bother creating a hostage situation. Even if by some miracle he succeeded, the other city states in the Free Marches would undoubtably attack Kirkwall.

So he is either stupid/blinded by rage. Or he didn't intend to succeed. Then I ask the question, would any positives from his failure outweigh the negatives? I really don't think so. Gone is the image of the scary unbeatable kossith.Gone is one of the 3 leaders of the Qunari, the mightiest warrior his people have to offer, slain in either single combat with a human or while outnumbering a small group of maximum 4 people. Tensions will increase between Thedas and the Qunari and the possibility of war is now more likely.The Qunari many not be trusted anymore and be killed on sight if they pass into other countries. And the book is not found along with the loss of the Arishok causing a blow to Qunari morale.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 24 mai 2011 - 11:13 .

[Xilizhra]

I liked the Arishok right up until he tried to kill me... after I'd told Aveline to back down and let him keep the elves. I'd done everything within my power to help them; killed the instigators, tried to convince Isabela to give the damn book back, and openly sided with him against the city guard. And then I got a taste of qunari gratitude.
From now on, I'll find it very difficult to not side with Petrice, as I see her actions as mostly just accelerating an inevitable outcome in the hopes of starting a war on terms favorable to Kirkwall. The qunari are incompatible with Thedosian civilization.

[Skilled Seeker]

Huntress wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

The Qun is brutal and oppressive, I won't argue with that. The options he gave the nobles was likely just convert or die, which also seems to be what the Qunari intend to give to all of Thedas at some point. However thats not the issue here. The Qunari didn't come to Kirkwall to fight, they came there to retrieve a sacred text and perhaps apprehend the thief as well, though I suspect they'd be willing to leave with just the book if they didn't know where the thief was. They allowed the fanatics to poke and prod at them for years. The Qunari in Kirkwall did nothing to instigate the violence towards them other than exist.

The people acting against them were as you say, fanatics. They did not represent Kirkwal and the Chantry and Kirkwall did not agree with their actions. Sister Petrice was to be punished before the Qunari decided to take matters into their own hands. The authority of Kirkwall did their best to keep the peace, that's why the Viscount requested your help. Yet the Qunari went to war with them. 

The Qunari were just as responsible for raising tensions as the fanatics. As I mentioned, they protected the elven fugative 'converts' knowing that Kirkwall could never allow this. They also had death squads in the Gallows. 
The Arishok started the war.

The death squads aren't qunaries, they are either fanatics/ slavers/ criminals.

You are just seen everything from one side.. and thats not right, the only thing that the qunari wanted was to be left alone, to find the thief with the book and go back to whatever island they live. Everything also that follow was thanks to sister patrice.

lol this is simply not true as I and others have detailed many times in this thread. And actually you can encounter a random Qunari death squad in the Gallows during Act 2.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 24 mai 2011 - 11:14 .

[kromify]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

OK so people say the Arishok believed he had a chance at taking the city. Could they elaborate? I mean the Arishok doesn't even bother creating a hostage situation. Even if by some miracle he succeeded, the other city states in the Free Marches would undoubtably attack Kirkwall.

well he was succeeding until hawke kicked his ass ran away screaming. if hawke hadn't been there it might have gone vey differently.
meredith v arishok anyone?